my friend has just rang me her hip scores have come back so it not be long before mine :) ....well shes guted and not sure what to do ?

when her girl was 7months old 1 of her other dogs large male knocked her to the floor and hurt her back leg ,she forgot about it until now after havin the scores back ,same breed as me can i say? i dont have a litter! but anyway score for this breed is 19 and her girls has come back 6-30=36 but if her dog hadnt have hurt her she is sure would of been around the same both sides ? would you still use as brood bitch ?

god il be glad when i get mine back im sick of the worry and this has made it worse for me :(

so whats your thoughts on this please! xx thanks jo xx

They do say that with an uneven score like that the 'bad' side is generally due to accidental damage, because the genes for joint quality are inherited evenly on both sides. One would assume that, without damage, the acore would have been much more even, giving a lower score. But she can't prove it, I'm afraid.

i know :( so would you use as brood bitch knowing your self what had happend?

no, apart from the fact you cant really be sure, would you really buy a puppy from a parent with scores like that?

would you?
if it were me and that was the score then no!
because like has already been said she cant prove it was due to the accident and 'what if' it isnt due to an accident?
would she be happy risking it with puppies carrying the chance??
some may say different but me no i wouldnt id like a nice low score.

> no, apart from the fact you cant really be sure, would you really buy a puppy from a parent with scores like that?

forgot to put this in my post lol

im assuming that the breed in question a is a GSD? i only say this because i know they have same mean score. with all the hype in the media and with all the issues surrounding the removal of cc status due to health issues (i think, but dont know for definite this is the reason), i think breeding from dogs with poor results is just adding fuel to the fire

Does she have her x-rays to look at?

i dont know she didnt say? il ask her ,can u tell somthing by it ?

I wouldn't breed its not worth the risk, (plus the extra weight of pregnancy will be on the hip)

If the bitches siblings all had good scores as did, parents, grandparents and their siblings etc then I would think its safe to presume its definitely been an accident.  If then the bitch was of outstanding quality and I really felt she had a lot of good quality points to pass on then yes, I'd have no qualms about buying a pup from her.  If it were my bitch and I wanted to breed from her then providing I had enough homes lined up then I would probably do it.  You know there are so many health problems and temperament problems that some seem to ignore that I certainly wouldnt worry about buying a pup from a bitch with a higher hip score if she was a one off.

Personally, I would be more concerned about the strain that pregnancy would put on the bitch and the consequent damage that might occur later in life to her than I would be worrying about the hip scores of potential offspring.

My primary concern is always the health and well-being of my bitch.

Assuming we are talking about GSD's, then there is no way I would use her as a brood bitch. Puppy purchasers have such a huge choice of litters , I am sure that hip score would put them off.

thankyou everyone for your comments :) i will print off and show her what has been said xx

now just got to wait for mine !!!!!!!!!!

Agree.  We are talking about the inherited part of HD, which is a bilateral condition, so an uneven score with one side well within acceptable norms, with history of similar scores in preceding generations and siblings then no reason at all not to use for breeding assuming the bitch is excellent in all other respects and especially if the breeder has no sister or mother to breed from.

A dog is more than a pair of hips, and the heredity is the important issue.

Actually just such a bitch in our breed is the mother of only the second perfect hip scored one of our breed.  her sisters score was even, hers was about the sme as ehr sisters one side and I think something like 22 on the other side.

All her descendants have respectable scores, and she lived fit and healthy to just short of 15.

Is elbow inheritance also bilateral?

elbows came back 00 so no problem there ,the bitches mum isnt alive now ,2 of the litter have great hip scores 2 havnt been done and 3 are even at 5-5 ....7-7.....and ....4-5...but she dont know if elbows have been done with them yet,......dam had hips 2-2 sire....4-3 dam sister 6-6 and on sires side all was done over in germany with A stamp ....this girl is stunning ,and wanted to keep a girl back to keep her lines ,now i know she could have 1 from sister but different stud will be used and she dont agree with the stud thats going to be used ......so she is now doing a lot of thinking about this ....thankyou i will pass new posts to her x

Don't see a great problem other than what the effects of pregnancy are on the hip, is it a heavy breed with larger litters?

Also she should look at the actual score sheet and see where the figures are on the high side.

If the main features are fairly even, but then it is arthritic changes (items lower down on the sheet, then this too would point to injury.

We are lucky in UK that we don't just get a grade but a detailed evaluation.

It would be a good idea for her to read the article that explains in detail how each figure is worked out.

You can obtain it from the BVA.  itr is soemthing like Scoring Criteria in the title.

I didnt catch what breed the bitch is? For large to giant breeds it is recommended to wait until they are 2 years old for a hip score. They will be fully developed then

I might be in the same situation with your friend(my dog broke her pelvis so went through major accident&recovery). She has been cleared by 3 different vets to be ok to be bred from physically... but we had a big surprise with her elbow score(the side that would have taken all the weight for months after her accident) however hers were healthy according to the lady who took the xrays so we have not lost all hope yet but of course I have had to start thinking about it all.

It is very difficult situation to be in.
Straight forward answer would of course be no do not breed from her.
But it really is not that simple...

Some things I'm thinking through:
Could she take a pregnancy? If my girl struggled with the pregnancy, could I live with that?
Is it a problem in the breed?
What is the background of my girl?
Is there really a contribution breeding my girl would give to the breed?
Would I get a stud I want? I for exaple could not go for an UK male as the owner would face being kicked out of the breed club (I would be kicked out too, would I be ready to face that as breeder just starting out?).
I know her results is more than likely caused by the accident(but of course can't be 100% sure) but others would not know this, could I deal with being branded as a breeder who does not care about health(I'm quite the opposite!) for years to come? What could this mean in reality? would my puppies go to kind of homes I would want them to go or would these people steer clear of them?
I know issues on what others think should not really come to it, but lets face it they do and have to be tought about.

Would I be ready to make sure to get all puppies resulting tested(e.g. pay it myself if necessary) to make sure there isn't a problem in the next generation? what about if the problem surfased after few generations?
If all puppies in her litter had a problem(very very unlikely), could I live with that?
What does research say about elbows and inheritance, does this prove right with my breed?

Noora I know of a dog in our breed (not in UK) passing on elbow problems, some so bad the pups have been put to sleep :-(  And in some of the litters there were several affected dogs. 
In some cases the club can be approached for permission to breed from dogs.  Not sure how it works though.  I think you'll also find that a lot of people over here are not club members so therefore would not be named and shamed for breaking the club code of ethics.

I was wondering about the elbow scores being bilaterally inherited just out of interest, not necessarily to do with the opening post.  Does anyone know if this is the case?

The problem is, if this bitch has been around a year old when scored that score of 30 is going to get worse & worse as she gets older and by middle age she could be very arthritic in her hip without adding the undue strain of a pregnancy on top.

I wouldn't even contemplate breeding from her.  Has she been shown with any success at all?  

An interesting thread and a real dilemma.

I have been in just this position. My bitch was knocked down as a youngster, damaged her stifle and her hip and took a while to become sound. However, once she had fully recovered, you'd never have known - bar her hip score of 24:3. Now I can't guarantee that this uneven score was due to the accident, but I believe it was. Her litter sister had a score of 2:2.

Did I breed from her? After a huge amount of thought, yes, I did. HOWEVER, she was an outstanding bitch - in type and temperament. If she had just been an average sort of a bitch, then I don't think I would have done. She was from my first ever litter and she won her title and was still winning CCs as a veteran, her last one at nearly 11. She never exhibited any unsoundness. Only one of her progeny was scored (at 4:5) and he has proved to be an outstanding sire.

But its the wheat & chaff scenario, isn't Carina?   You knew you had an outstanding bitch of Champion quality.   There are however, an awful lot of GSD's out there being bred from that don't have half or even a quarter of the quality.   A bitch I bred in my first litter had a score of 5,19 probably due to some injury.  I would've had a litter from her, as like your bitch, she won her title and won CC's & BOB's from Veteran, she was also BOB at Crufts, but her owners had her spayed.   Her litter sister who I owned had a score totalling 7.

My last GSD had a score of 59, her dam's score was 2:2 and sire's score 2:3. I was mortified until her sister was scored with an even higher score, followed by two litter brothers and another sister, my girl had the lowest score. The dam had previously whelped a litter to a different dog, two scored, both very low totals.

My bitch was from the first litter the dog had sired, but he had since been used on another bitch. Again not a maiden bitch who had produced good hips. Apart from the retained pup, the breeder paid for 3 pups to be scored, again all four had terrible hips. Although the sire was winning really well, and had one ticket and a reserve, he was castrated. The stud dog owner was really disappointed, but felt his dogs "looks" were not enough to justify keeping him in the breeding circle. Now that is what I call a responsible breeder.

Although I do believe that if one hip scores significantly higher, it is usually due to an injury, I don't feel that in such a numerically large breed, it is justifiable taking the chance. There are always deviances from the norm, as in my girl's case.

But was your bitches score and the bad scores of her litter-mates evenly bad?

What we are talking about here is a condition that is inherited bilaterally and dogs scoring low (normal) on one hip and out of kilter on the other.

The heredity is for fairly even (give or take a point or three) distribution,a and anything way beyond that is going to be environmental, a problem or not for the individual dogs, but not something that will pass on with the genes.

There are dogs that produece poor scores despite beign good themselves,a dn there are average hip scorign dogs that are hip improvers, as HD is not a simply condition.

i agree brainless ,she still hasnt desided yet ,but mine came back today and well im over the moon 5-5 and elbows 0-0 :) :) :) x

> she still hasnt desided yet

I would've thought, morally, the decision was very easy to make.

Also a another thought,
were the xrays taken by somebody who knows what they are doing?
As if the legs are pulled "wonky", it could make the other side be even worse than it really is.
Of course she can not submit new xrays to be scored but if the xrays were taken by a vet that does not do it a lot, it might be sensible to ask to borrow the xrays and check the positioning... BVA is not of course supposed to score an xray that is not good but I'm sure it happens.
Article I came across some time ago, it shows really clearly what difference can a positioning make... http://leerburg.com/hipart.htm

> As if the legs are pulled "wonky", it could make the other side be even worse than it really is.
>

I have seen plates like that but no way would they put scoring out that badly.  I don't even know why there's any contemplation about breeding from the dog still.  Can people not enjoy their bitches for what they are?

Great scores Joanne, congratulations.

as a pet owner only when I bought my pup last year the hip scores were importent to me. I asked before seeing litter what they were and I'm afraid if I had been told that score I would not have gone to see the litter. lots of other litters out there with good scores, why would I take chance?

Thats brilliant white lilly. is this one of the bitches related to mine ?

no furriefriends its another we have she is beein done very soon :) x infact hoping to get her done next week :) i will let you know x

sounds like you are doing well

Also a another thought,
were the xrays taken by somebody who knows what they are doing?
As if the legs are pulled "wonky", it could make the other side be even worse than it really is.
Of course she can not submit new xrays to be scored but if the xrays were taken by a vet that does not do it a lot, it might be sensible to ask to borrow the xrays and check the positioning... BVA is not of course supposed to score an xray that is not good but I'm sure it happens.
Article I came across some time ago, it shows really clearly what difference can a positioning make... http://leerburg.com/hipart.htm

noora my friend has got the xrays back from her vets ...i carnt beleve they gave them but they did ....ive been looking at them and i can see from the link you posted ,her hips arnt positioned right theres less pelvis bone on the leg ,this is the side that as bad score :( or should i say theres no palvis bone showing on the leg bone but there is on the good side!!!! ,weve been ring around to see if a vet will look but no vets what to get involved :(

now what should she do ?

In part of the link you put up it says "You will also see that no matter what you do with positioning you can never make a bad hip into a good hip."

If the x-ray had been too bad the BVA would have refused to score them and insisted on new plates being submitted.

yes i agree pedlee !! but what if this was missed ? im going to take 1 of my girls to adiffernt vets  next week and im going to ask vet just to look and see what he see's we all make mistakes and the bva are human but geting to sort this out will be another thing :( its like getting a doctor to admit theyve done somthing wronge isnt it ....

Is it not a panel that sits though? I agree everyone is human and mistakes can be made, but more unlikely when more than one person is concerned with the decision. I hasten to add I'm not an expert in the BVA scoring method, but I asked my Vet to show me the x-rays BEFORE they were sent off and asked his opinion (I also have them stored at home now, after they had been scored). If your friend had done the same she would have been in a better position to do something about it rather than going through an appeal which will probably prove fruitless.

she did see the xray and vet said looks very good :-o ,if a vet can say the it looks very good and a score of 30 comes back then that vet hasnt got a clue and isnt very experient in this IMO ,so ive said to her to get them xrayed from a reputable vet that can get scores by the vet well see what the vet thinks...i know they carnt be sent off but she will know if its because of bad placing of leg and if its about the same she will get her spayed.

The heredity is for fairly even (give or take a point or three) distribution,a and anything way beyond that is going to be environmental, a problem or not for the individual dogs, but not something that will pass on with the genes.

I've heard this and also heard the opposite.  The more I read about HD, the more I realise how little we really know about it.  I am genuinely interested though, what scientific evidence is there for an uneven score not being considered hereditary? My own understanding is that it is always a hereditary disease and a dog cannot develop HD without a genetic predisposition to it, so I'm interested to hear any opposing information.

Edited to add:
"You will also see that no matter what you do with positioning you can never make a bad hip into a good hip."  This is true, but poor positioning can make a good hip look bad.
I do think poor xrays are not uncommon and think it would be a good thing if there was a list of approved vets to take xrays.

> I do think poor xrays are not uncommon and think it would be a good thing if there was a list of approved vets to take xrays.

I know this comes up time and time again but surely the judging panel would reject any poor quality x-rays? Any vet should be capable of taking a good, well positioned x-ray.

> surely the judging panel would reject any poor quality x-rays?

It would be great to read an article about/from the panel answering some of these common questions.  Do they reject poor quality x-rays and by what criteria?

> Any vet should be capable of taking a good, well positioned x-ray.

Should be is perhaps exactly the point here.  Is this something they are given guidelines or training on, not taking x-rays as a diagnostic tool for their for their own use but for the specific purpose of scoring?

If such as article has been written can anyone send me a link?  Many thanks

>Do they reject poor quality x-rays and by what criteria?

The BVA Procedure notes has quite a lot of information about radiograph quality and positioning.

> what scientific evidence is there for an uneven score not being considered hereditary?

Certainly the leading expert on HD Dr Malcom Willis has told breeders this,a dn eh keeps the statistics for al HD scores udner the UK and Australian systems and writes reposts for any breed about them.

> Also a another thought,
> were the xrays taken by somebody who knows what they are doing?
> As if the legs are pulled "wonky", it could make the other side be even worse than it really is.
>

The words 'flogging a dead horse' comes to mind now.  The bitch has a high hip score, she has been scored as such, anyone with an ounce of commonsense would spay the bitch and be done with it instead of picking through the bones.

A friend of mine had her bitch hip x-rayed at a 'very recommended' veterinary surgery and the vet gave his idea the score would be totalling in the 30's.   Well lets just say, double it because that's what the score was.  General practice vets just aren't clued up enough that's why there is a panel of EXPERTS!