Champdogs have always considered 2 years to be the minimum acceptable age for a bitch's first litter. However our membership terms and conditions have never explicitly stated this as a rule.

We are currently in the process of refining our Ts & Cs so as to avoid any doubt. But before we commit to an age limit of 2 years I would be interested to hear your opinions.

So are there any circumstances when you would consider it appropriate to breed from a bitch before she is 24 months old. For example is it acceptable in the toy breeds ?

Thanks
Mark

Hi Mark, we have always consider 18 months - 3rd season to be fine for our toys.  they are completley physically mature, and as mentally mature as they are ever going to get!

i dont breed toys but i know some do have litters about 18/20 months old! some have had 3-4 season by this time ,even some small/med breeds have litters around 20 months!.

I don't believe gundogs are mature at 18 months and would prefer a minimum age of 24 months.

I would mate a bitch to whelp after 2nd birthday, so she must be 22 months at mating.

Certainly 18 months as a minimum in small breeds seems reasonable, and it is not that long ago when it was considered a normal age for most medium size breeds, including my first breed the BSD, which is larger than my current breed.

I would think for some of the toy breeds it is perfectly acceptable to allow a bitch a first litter before 24 months? But for the vast majority of breeds, 2-3 years is probably the ideal.

Hi Mark,

I haven't done it in recent years just purely because there has not the right time to take my bitches out the show ring, my last litter the bitch was over 3 but that is quite late for our breed.   It is very accepted in my breed and reasonably common for them to be mated on their 3rd season and onwards of course.  Our breed is mature at their 3rd season. Some may dismiss it but many in my breed believe it is better for them to have their first litter earlier rather than later.   Our breed code of ethics was changed as were all the clubs to the KC standard one but  the membership requirement is;

No bitch should be mated before her second season and normally never before the age of 14 months
and I would say our club is very ethical

Quite often I see people showing their bitches right up to the end of Junior, letting them have a litter then bringing them back out after they have had their litter.

I think it varies a great deal from breed to breed as to the most suitable age and I guess common sense should prevail.   I know as a site owner you may be looking to standardise these things but on this subject what is suitable in one breed is definately not acceptable or suitable in another and shouldn't be accepted IMHO. So you have a dilemma. :-)

I think that 18 months is very reasonable.  I've had many bitches only have seasons every 10-11 months and so if I had to wait for 2 years old, they may well be 3 before they produce their first litter which IMO is late and I wouldn't be happy with that.

The problem with making blanket rules is that it doesn't differentiate between owners who know their line/bitches and those who don't but that's the way it is eh?

Im with Gwen on this one as we have the same breed. In toys it is generally accepted that 18 months/3rd season on wards is acceptable. Most breeders are sensible and also take into consideration the bitches own maturity level, so may not breed until 2 years or older anyway.

By setting the T&C minimum age to 2 years you could well end up excluding a large section of the toy dog community.

Obviously with regard to larger breeds, 2 years would be an absolute minimum, if not older.

I have a giant breed & as far as i know 2 years is the minimum age for breeding as they take so long to mature.

I state that as one of the conditions before lifting breeding restrictions the bitch  must have reached a minimum age of 2 ............... I cannot see any reason other than greed to breed before this age (Gundogs)

> In toys it is generally accepted that 18 months/3rd season on wards is acceptable

Too generalised and sometimes misleads novice CKCS owners.

Cavaliers should be 2 years 6 months in line with the breed protocol and MRI scanned before mating.

I would never consider breeding from a Malinois bitch less than 24 months of age, I prefer above 2, nor have I so far bred from any Papillon under the age of 2, but there I couldn't see a problem -say if you have a bitch  where she'd end up being in season at say 22 months  and that season would suit you better for a litter than the next one (because of time of year for instance) -that I couldn't see anything wrong with at all.

I would never consider mating a  HWV bitch of less than 2. Wires generally go 10 or more months between seasons so at 2 may have only had one season. I would prefer nearer three years.

I would mate the bitch before she was 2 so long as the litter arrived after the age of 2 so 22/ 23 months of age, I wouldn't breed a large breed after the age of 4 for the first litter.

I would rather the restriction to say no litter to be born before the age of two.

Maybe the T's and C's should specify the size to age ratio
i.e. toy 18 months, medium/ large breeds 2 years

but don't put what season as others have said some breeds only have 1 season a year and less

I took a bitch (labrador) to be mated at 21 months, but this was her 3rd season and I felt she was mature enough. Had she only had one or two seasons before then I would not have done it. I had the full backing of the bitch's breeder who has many years experience.

I think each bitch has to be looked at individually but appreciate what Mark is suggesting.

i am interested in what people think along these lines too,as ive become freinds with a lady who breeds and shows yorkies and she has said she would never allow a bitch to have her first mating over the age of 2 as she may not cope very well,so the bitch would be mated earliest at 12 months and after/on 2nd season but never after 24 months.

i think large breeds (THAT I HAVE A TEENY BIT OF KNOW HOW ON)whoops sorry caps. should be two years at first litter and i would like to comment on the latest you would mate a large breed bitch but i dont know.if it were me i wouldnt let a bitch be over 3 for a first litter but thats just because i would worry i suppose.

i dont think (slighty off topic) the kc should allow a maximum of 6 litters from one bitch!or to breed until she is 8.i definatly dont agree with that.
i think it should state somewhere that a small breed IE toys 12-18 months medium/large breeds 18-24 months and im a novice

Have Pomeranians and yes do breed occasionally at 18 months dependant upon the dog, but more often at 2.  The Spanish don't breed until 2 but that is a breed club requirement and has been for years.  Seeing as they live around 14 years don't see the need to breed from them any earlier.

Before five, and that is the advice in our breeds code of ethics, as an advisory. 

May be coincidence but the bitches that I have bred from at 2 - 2 1/2 took to motherhood better than the ones having later first litters.

>or to breed until she is 8.i definatly dont agree with that.

Not for a first litter, definitely not! But in some breeds 8 years of age is their prime, and just settling down to 'proper' maturity, rather than their extended juvenility, and would be fine for a final litter.

> Not for a first litter, definitely not! But in some breeds 8 years of age is their prime, and just settling down to 'proper' maturity, rather than their extended juvenility, and would be fine for a final litter.

oh of course but what i meant was breed at 2 and then 3 then 4 then 5 ect til she is 8 having 7 litters from her.registered anyways,even more so if they were to be bred every season.which some ........very ignorant horrible people do.

all my girls have had they first season at 16 months so i wouldnt breed on a first season.

  By setting the T&C minimum age to 2 years you could well end up excluding a large section of the toy dog community.>

Would definitely exclude me!   If any of my girls hadn't had a litter at 3 years old, she would be spayed.  No way would I have a first litter off a bitch at 3 years old.  But I normally retire mine from breeding at 4 years anyway.

If the seasons suit, I have to say that I like a bitch mated at 18 months, so whelping well before she is 2 years old. 

I have a giant breed and no way would i breed before the age of two, IMHO i dont think my breed are mature enough

> I have a giant breed and no way would i breed before the age of two, IMHO i dont think my breed are mature enough

Which is a big difference to a breed like mine, which is mature at 6 months.

What evidence would any minimum age for breeding be based on ?    If there is research evidence to show that breeding a bitch under 2 is physically or psychologically harmful (to either the bitch or pups) then go ahead and put it in the T&C.      I don't think it's fair to put any minimum age in place unless it's either pretty much universally accepted (which 2 years isn't) or else is based on proper evidence. 

> I have a giant breed and no way would i breed before the age of two, IMHO i dont think my breed are mature enough

definitely agree with that. their frames and state of mind are far too undeveloped for breeding before 2

> unless it's either pretty much universally accepted

It is pretty much for most breeds, other than some toys and a few other small quick maturing ones.

To be honest it isn't about science, but what is over exploitation of a bitch.

These days there should be no great hurry to breed from a bitch as it was in the days when many dogs died of diseases that are vaccinated for these days and whole lines could be lost unless you got something from them asap.

Also to another poster just because you can breed from a bitch from two to 8 years, doesn't mean any breeder worth their name would even consider breeding the maximum KC allowed litters which is 6.

My breed club only allow 4 litters maximum from any bitch, and most breeders won't breed even that many, unless litters were small.

When I first came into dogs some 18 years ago there was no minimum or maximum age or maximum number of litters.

First the maximum number came in, and the maximum age.  then only a short few years ago a minimum age was brought in, no pups could be registered to a bitch mated under a year of age.

Certainly there is evidence against breeding from animals that are not yet fully mature, after all pregnancy is quite a strain on the system.

>what i meant was breed at 2 and then 3 then 4 then 5 ect til she is 8 having 7 litters from her

That would definitely be exploitation. :-( However where one used to have litters at 3, 5 and 8 years a breeder is more likely to go for 2, 4 and 6/7 instead, meaning the bitch has less time between litters.

A few years ago my breed club changed the rule about not mating before the age of 2 years to nor whelping before the age of 2, which I think was a retrograde step, seeing as my breed are such late developers mentally.

Personally I would never mate a LM bitch younger than 3.    However the LMC guidelines term 'maturity' as 20 months, which is only a couple of months older than a breeding from a 'toy breed'.  

"Also to another poster just because you can breed from a bitch from two to 8 years, doesn't mean any breeder worth their name would even consider breeding the maximum KC allowed litters which is 6.
"

It surprises me how many well known breeders/exhibitors  do allow their bitches to have FIVE litters though (info from the breeds record supplement).
For me, THREE is the absolute maximum.

Edited to say : the age at which a bitch is mature enough to have a first litter is clearly breed specific.

one of the breed clubs we belong to advises 18months or 2nd season,whichever is the later of the two.

Thanks for all the comments so far.

As Brainless said this is also about not allowing over exploitation and not just the age at which the bitch is mature enough to have a litter.

It would appear that 2 years old for the whelping date appears to be reasonable starting point for the majority of breeds, with 18 months allowed for certain breeds. The problem is defining the exceptions. Is simply stating the toy breeds too general ? Other than the CKCS are there any other toys for which 18 months is considered too young ?

On the exploitation note I can't believe the KC allow upto to 6 litters to registered to a single bitch. We have always considered 3 litters to be more than enough and 4 to be the absolute maximum (our Ts & Cs will be updated to state this).

I think the T's and C's that you have on the website Mark are going to have to reflect your own moral judgement for the site.

Otherwise you are going to be left with the same dilemma that the KC had and so as to include the toy breeds have started from 12 months onwards. The KC do not have their rulings per breed club instructions, but will register a dams litter from 12 months (at time of mating) for all breeds as we know. As many breed clubs are 2nd season or 18 months your going to end up being all over the place, whatever you decide may well be unfair to some breeds.

I think the way to look at it is to think when people come onto the CD puppy and breeder pages what do you want them to look for? The site has always been supportive of responsible breeding, so I personally think 2 years will support that as many breeds are not fully mature until that age or even longer, it also gives the time for all breeds to have shown their worth as breeding stock via shows, working, genetic health tests etc, etc. I want to look at pups from good breeders who have done the show or working rounds and have some sort of background keeping the age at 2 will hopefully route out the BYB's as well as they are more likely to mate asap.

I feel 2 years will act as a support for being responsible and breeding for the right reasons it's as much as the site can do. I know this ruling may be unfair to some breeds, but in the long run 2 years isn't old even for the toys, people who come to CD to look for a pup will hopefully feel they are on a site which cares for the dogs welfare.

> We have always considered 3 litters to be more than enough and 4 to be the absolute maximum

Quite agree and what our breed club allows for.

the view being is that if you can't get what you need by then maybe they were not of the quality to be bred from.

Even with a toy breed surely in four litters you should be able to get the quality/sex you need, though I do understand survival rates in some can be low, but then a bitch whose pups all die may not be a good breeding candidate either.

I have found it a job to fit in more than 2 - 3 litters in the age range allowed and fit in their show careers too.

My girls have had two, and three litters each so far, but I do have one that just might have a fourth because of spacing/sexes/available mates, but hopefully I will get what I need from the third.

**Light just gone on** :-)

Just thought of a fair way for all breeds.

Why not forget the blanket age rule. Just put in your T's and C's as per breed club guidlines which can be clicked on to go to a page with all breeds listed each stating it's breed club age limits. (Something I wish the KC would abide by) A lot more typing to set up the page, and each registration would need checking against the breed, but would make it more fair I guess.

Otherwise if there is a blanket rule, I still feel 2 years would be appropriate to cover all.

Someone said that 2 pretty much is universally accepted except in toy breeds.  Hmm, I'm not sure that's the case, plenty of breed clubs seem to recommend 2nd season or 18 months. 

I totally agree people shouldn't be breeding large numbers of litters from one bitch - and that having a starting age of 2 would help prevent that - but I'm not sure that that isn't introducing something by the back door.    If we want to introduce a limit of say 2, 3, or 4 litters per bitch then wouldn't it be better to say so ?

I've yet to see anyone produce any scientific/veterinary type evidence that 2 years is a suitable minimum age for medium sized breeds such as Staffs, Cockers, collies - those sorts of size dogs that are the majority.   Personally I'd have no desire to rush into breeding a dog (if I was planning to breed, which I'm not) but I wouldn't judge someone as irresponsible for breeding one litter before 2 years compared to someone who bred multiple litters from a bitch but waited until that bitch was 2 before they started.

> Someone said that 2 pretty much is universally accepted except in toy breeds.

I think two is pretty much universally in most breeds other than some toy/small terrier/Utility breeds.

We wouldn't mate a bitch before she is two years old and we will not lift the endorsements before a dog or bitch is two either.

How about '2 years unless specifically stated otherwise in club guidelines'? That then accounts for CKCS at 2.5 years, and the other toy breeds if ok at 18 months.

We have, until now, essentially used the various breed clubs code of ethics as our guide regarding this issue.

The problem however is the lack of consistency. Take the Staffie for example where ,from memory, there are 17 different breed clubs. Not all those clubs publish their CoE on their website and of those that do some mention age limits whilst others do not. I also suspect there are breeds where one club has one age limit and another has a different one.

To be fair, I dont think we can put a blanket cover of maturity accross the board. While we deem 2 years old to be of 'adequate' maturity in my breed, I know that it can often be sooner or much later that this, depending on each individual dog... and this is where 'breeder trust' has to play a huge role in the whole scheme of things...

I have a 16month old here, who is mature before her time, and very much the 'granny'  of the pack, on the other hand, I have a girl who will be 4 on her next birthday,  and still dont think that she has the maturity to nurture and raise a litter.. (which is why I have never mated her)

So, could it be drastically wrong to mate a 2 year old Labrador, just because, whoopee, code of ethics says we can, or if the timing is right to mate a mature 22month old, we cannot....

Trusting breeders to know their own lines/bitches, does and will always play a huge role in why/when/how we come to our decisions... We know that certain lines within the same breed can be slow maturers,

While breed clubs code of ethics say we should not, they do not say we cannot breed before the age of 2.

It all comes down to responsible breeding, I have in the past, mated a mature 22month old, but I cannot justify mating my immature 4 year old...

I know that it can often be sooner or much later that this, depending on each individual dog... and this is where 'breeder trust' has to play a huge role in the whole scheme of things...

Trusting breeders to know their own lines/bitches, does and will always play a huge role in why/when/how we come to our decisions.

I couldn't agree more but it's difficult for someone not in a breed to judge a breeder trying to register a litter for sale to know whether they are knowledgable and experienced breeders or just breeding from pet quality dogs to sell..........

There are few breeders in my breed that I would recommend but fulfill the criteria to register a litter on the site. :(

> It would appear that 2 years old for the whelping date appears to be reasonable starting point for the majority of breeds, with 18 months allowed for certain breeds. The problem is defining the exceptions. Is simply stating the toy breeds too general ? Other than the CKCS are there any other toys for which 18 months is considered too young ?
>
>

Just to give my slant on research for one of my breeds.  About 6 or so years ago, visiting DD at Cruft's, I asked the Chi breeder on the Chi stand, what age she mated her bitches.  (She was very well known in the breed.)  She told me it was on the second season.  I was told that she liked them to whelp around 18 months, although 16 months was acceptable, depending on the time of the second season.

As previously stated, I normally have Chi bitches spayed at 4 years, when (for me) their breeding life has finished.  Sometimes they have had one litter, sometimes two.  One bitch that was very consistent, always producing two pups, had 3 litters of 2, after my vet said that he felt 6 puppies in a lifetime was acceptable, and she whelped so easily. 

On the times that I have had a bitch whelp for a first litter after 2 years of age, she has always had problems.   So, although I like a litter from a younger bitch, it couldn't be perceived as over breeding, given that I don't keep breeding from them. I certainly don't exploit them.

When I bred a litter of Toy Poodles back in the 70's, I was advised to mate on the second season.  I left it until the 3rd and had problems. 

In the Japanese Spitz most of the breeders have their first litter at around 18 months, my bitch had her first at 2years 2 months as she decided she didnt want spring puppies and was late in season :) but i would say of all the bitches in our breed i know that most are mature at 18 months.

"the view being is that if you can't get what you need by then maybe they were not of the quality to be bred from"

You hit the nail on the head there brainless (as always). I can't understand the need to keep on breeding from the same bitch to the point of having her whelp 5 litters - not only is it unfair on the bitch (IMO) but as you say, if you haven't got anything worthy of keeping after say 3 litters, chances are you are not going to.

"the view being is that if you can't get what you need by then maybe they were not of the quality to be bred from"

Yep, fully agree with that statement.

Not that I condone as many as 5 litters, but I'm hoping for a 2nd litter from my bitch this year. 2 years ago she had 2 male puppies, and I can't keep a 3rd male. So if she pulls the same trick this time, I will have to try for a 3rd litter to try to get a bitch. Nothing wrong with the quality (1 is halfway to his American championship), just the wrong sex!

In my breed they are no-way mature enough before 2years, 2years or third season depends on what comes first! I have one bitch that has a season every 12months so she will be 3years before mating.
There should in my opinion be an age limit.