Hi
I have a 4yr old ESS called jack.  I have had him one year. Before that he lived in a 2nd floor flat with very little if any exercise.
He is a powerful fit springer now......BUT a pure hunter, he brought down a deer 31/12/09. I managed to get him off it.
He then went missing for 3 hours, he came back covered in blood and had deer skin in his mouth.
I have two other ESS which i have had since pups (now 5 and 9). They have both accepted Jack.
Jack has not been neutered, i have also spoke to a gundog trainer and he thinks Jack is to old to train to prevent him chasing deer. I have been advised to use an electronic collar!! I have had to limit my areas of walking drastically since i have had Jack. I have to avoid woods and forests ( i have walked these for 20 years) i now can only go to open spaces and the local park. Advice please.  Jack is like a lamb indoors and very affectionate, but soon as he jumps in the car he is like a dog possessed.
Noooooles

He's a very dangerous dog. I take it these are wild deer otherwise he would have been shot by now, if he is killing deer, he would kill sheep, lambs, calves, maybe even foals too, wouldn't he?

He's not too old to be trained, chasing is one thing, killing quite another. So I'm in agreement with the gundog trainer.

You can't take him anywhere where there is livestock of any kind, all you can do is walk him places where he can do no harm otherwise muzzle or long line will have to do as an ESS he needs his exercise but it may well have to be long walks and perhaps ball play in secure areas or your garden, shame for the other two ESS, who may be missing out on good walks, I would walk him seperately, so that the other two do not miss out, or learn to pack hunt with him, you don't want him dragging the others in.

Crikey.....you have no option but to keep him on a lead do you? He must not be allowed to 'go missing' either.
So sorry for you this must be a nightmare.
Karen

Yikes, what a nightmare! One of my Cavaliers is a sheep chaser, when we holiday in the Lakes he can only be let off lead on the beach - anywhere on the fells, he is bound to find them! It sounds like a long lead might be safest for now - can you find any secure fields that he could run free in?

Hi,

I don't know whether it's too late for him to be trained not to or not but I'm pretty sure it's illegal.  You are not only risking him killing other deer but also risking him getting injured either by the deer which can cause nasty injuries when cornered and frightened but he could run across a road in his persuit of the deer.  If he comes across livestock and does this he could also risk the farmer shooting him to protect his livestock

I would certainly be keeping him on a long line and muzzled and in the meantime trying to work on a chase recall but certainly not with the use of an e collar.  They can have very negative consequences as well as being a very unkind way of training when you do have alternatives.  If his cahse and kill drive is that strong I would imagine you would need a farily high level shock - I've known of dogs to run through electric and barbed fencing and act as if it's not bothered them when in persuit of a chase, yet they have when the chase is over been very worried by going ner the fenecing again, but when that adrenaline is running through them they just don't react.  Even if you get to a high level chase recall I don't think I would be exercising him any where that was open with him unmuzzled.

I feel that once a dog has experienced the adrenalin rush from chasing that nothing can compete with it.  I am sorry that this has happened, but you really should not be letting him off lead if he cant be controlled.

The simple answer is you should not let him off lead at all except in dog proof secure areas.

This is what many of us with dogs or breeds with strong hunting drives have to do.

In many areas with livestock there are signs advising that dogs found 'worrying' them will be shot.  Differences with a farmer over the definition of worrying isn't one I'd be willing to risk and I keep even my 'safe' dog on a lead in these areas.  The fact that the deer is wild will carry no weight with landowners and your dog is at risk.

To be brutally honest, actions by dogs such as yours have sadly made the debate between walkers and farmers/landowners more difficult.  It's a tricky issue at the best of times but once a farmer has some experience of the damage that can be caused they are more vigilant in future and employ tougher tactics.  (We apparently had an incident in our village many years ago and locals are warned that this particular farm should be approached with caution)

You've had good advice about not using an electronic collar and it's worth recognising that this is a very hard habit to train.  The other problem you face is that Jack may well incite your other dogs to similar behaviour.  A fun chase is a very hard thing for a lively dog to ignore and they'll simply follow their pal.  Perhaps you simply need to recognise that he is no longer safe to allow off the lead.  Concentrate on ensuring he has good lead manners and develop other ways for him to spend his energy.  He can still come on all your walks but perhaps you need to spend 20 minutes before and after doing some 1:1 training and playtime in the garden. 

I have one that is/would be a livestock chaser.  Despite being super vigilant, a split second delay or a few minutes complacency on my behalf and we've had the odd mishap due to my lack of attention.  He has shown no aggression and he simply charges around in 'woo-hoo' kind of way but it's just not OK for him to chase.  If I'm in a situation where he has to be on his lead then we just have to walk further and I have to show him other interesting things to do whilst on a lead.  Mine goes rooting about hedgerows looking for mice - keeps him entertained for hours.  Luckily a chap of simple needs! :)

Hi,
This is a very difficult situation for you to be in.
As someone who has owned spaniels for 30 years i understand how difficult it is when you have one wth the desire to chase. I also know that trying to excerise a springer on a lead is something that cannot really be done IMO.
You say that you still take him to open spaces and parks, maybe if you started your walks there so he can despense some of his energy first, perhaps retreiving a ball. You could then continue onto your preffered route, with him either on a long line or flexi lead. You would then still get to do the walks you enjoy but also give him some good off lead exercise.
Letting him off when livestock are in the vicinity a more severe accident waiting to happen. If its not a farmer that kills him, it could very easily be a horse, cow, or a stag.
My current springer decided that the frozen canal (during the snow over xmas) was a good thing to run across and chace the ducks, untill he fell through it and couldn't get himself out. No ammount of calling could stop him. I didnt know whether to kill him or kiss him when he pulled himself out. Even one bit of ice on the canal now and i wont let him off, whether a one off or not the trust i had in him dissapeared that day. He still gets off lead exercise in woods, open fields, and parks. But i cant seem to enjoy our canal walks in the same way i used to.

Good luck

Well, this is exactly what I have with my oldest WSS. He can be fine on a lead or off it, but I don't trust him around any livestock. He has learned to flush my more excitable hens by running up and down the fence so that they fly over a 6 foot deer fence to safety and that's when he grabs them--they have lost feathers but no more than that. He recently pulled this stunt with hens loose in a field, instantly spotted a gap in the fence about rabbit sized and squeezed himself under before I could do a thing. That earned me a ton of abuse from the owner of the hens plus an 'emergency' vet bill (for Baytril!) of £120 for the three hens...

I am really careful these days. The front and back doors are always kept locked now in case someone comes in and he barges past, he isn't allowed off the lead if there are any sheep, hens etc in view no matter how far away and in the icy weather he and my other dogs are NEVER allowed loose near icy ponds or the canal. Yes, it is very frustrating at times, but I have to live with it unless I can find another way.

Really sorry to hear this, noooooles, I know exactly what you mean. I had a saluki 30 years ago who had a huge prey drive and would take anything that ran or flew near him--many pigeons, rabbits, and I am sorry to say a cat were unfortunate enough to cross his path. He was a great one for going 'missing' and could turn up miles away if there was a bitch in season. We lived in a very rural area then, but even that wasn't enough for him--he had no road sense at all, and despite being retired to a large farm miles from anywhere still managed to run in front of a car. I have never forgiven myself. 

My WSS is obsessed by my hens and has killed a pheasant as a young pup--the bird just flew out from underneath him and thought it was safe flying into nettle, but not a chance. He hasn't chased sheep but has given me a very bad fright a couple of months ago by swimming a river to take a closer look at some in the field. Since then he has been on a lead unless we take a special trip out to walk where there is no contact with livestock, not easy around here.

You might like to have a look at http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/shop/books/stop-how-to-control-predatory-chasing-in-dogs/

I found this to be an excellent book and while I wouldn't say we are anywhere near 'safe,' I have been making extra effort to go to the 'no animals land' to walk and practice recall with all three dogs. He is good at recall ow, but I will never trust him enough to risk someone coming after him with a shotgun.

I used to live in Cornwall and my friend had 2 beautiful black labs. One day they escaped through an open window in her cottage (they climbed over furniture and a piano to reach the window) as they ran across an adjacent field the farmer shot them both. He knew who the dogs belonged to and where they lived, and also the field was empty with no livestock at all, but he still shot the dogs as it was his land and he could!!
I am so sorry for your problem but you have to be so careful to make sure he cannot escape for his sake as well as for the deer or any other animals he may kill.

Blimey - surely they aren't allowed to shoot a dog in an empty field? I think they have to show they have made reasonable attempt to stop sheep worrying by other means before they shoot. No comfort to your poor friend though. :-(

The farmer claimed he had cows in calf in the next field along, but that was his word as we didn't see any when we went to collect the dogs where they lay. We were too devastated to take it any further on that day, and by the next day the moment was past and we had no proof by then.

Noooooles, can you exercise Jack on a long lead at the side of a push bike?  Take it slowly but steadily but take it about 5 miles the round trip!  If he does pull you then do increase the speed so he has to concentrate on staying with you. Then walk with your other dogs and Jack will be happy to smell the flowers on a lead while your other dogs are off lead. 

He needs not only the hard exercise but also removal of his early imprinting that life is 2 floors up.  You know that he will continue to have exercise but he doesn't, not yet.  Running loose off lead will not necessarily help him anyway.  You have to re-create his puppyhood where running loose does tire out a growing pup. A healthy, adult dog of any vigor will be able to run loose all day without tiring. A canine route march is it!  My son jogs with his chi/dach mix and they do 7 miles @ just over 7mph so don't worry.  It's a kind of running that releases the adrenaline but also runs it off.

I would advise discussing the incident with your vet with a view to neutering.  Perhaps the re-homer or PDSA will help with this for poor, abused, but, sadly, dangerous Jack.

Good Luck

You may want to consider an appointment with Angela Stockdale of www.dog-partnership.co.uk.  She deal with livestock chasers and has speciality workshops.

I went to see angela with my GSD for dog to dog agression. Cost a fortune as we had to stay overnight in a hotel for the one to one and travel 6 hour round trip to attend the workshops. My insurance would not pay as she was not on their approved list I had checked this on the phone with her beforehand, and she assured me that she was on the list. My GSD had a one to one and several workshop lessons, the last one was arranged and we turned up but no-one else did!!! We rang on getting home and were informed that the session had been cancelled but no-one had informed us!!! All this and yet made no difference to the dog, at this point we gave up and just kept her on lead thereafter.

gosh--what a very poor outcome for you and your dog, and I am very surprised that such a well regarded trainer did not take it upon herself to get your feedback and act on it right away. I train people rather than dogs, other than my own (with greater successes in some areas...:-), and it would be unthinkable in my profession to treat a client this way...you just wouldn't be able to work for very long at all!