bless her! i had a 14 year old bitch that had never had puppies although she had had oportunity, so we asumed she couldn't get pregnant or carry them! then one night aged 14 she gave birth to 1 puppy. shock and utter confusion are just 2 of the feelings we had that night i can tell you! anyway after a check up at the vets both mom and pup were fine. when the pup (bracken) was 6 months old her mom got a tumour so the vet advised that he remove the tumour and spay her at the same time and that we may as well have bracken done then too. so we did.
im not sure how long after that it started but it wasnt very long, but she became incontinant! she has been on medication for it but to be honest it didnt make any difference so we took her off them. she has also had her urine tested and that was fine too. although house trained (we dont include 'leaking' or eating anything that contains elastic in that) through the day she made a habit of pooing in the house on a night time so at the age of 4 1/2 we built her an insulated kennel and she moved out into the garden. her first winter out there i felt so guilty that i nearly cried on a night time but couldnt cope with her behaviour enough to bring her back in. i have 3 small children who she is brilliant with, and she comes in all day, but i have peace of mind if i go out or go to bed on a night she has her own kennel to sleep in. at the end of last year when bracken was nearly 6 we got another dog to keep her company. they get on well. my main problem is this: 3 weeks ago we had a lot of bad snow and my hubby was taking the dogs out for long walks in it, they both loved it and were worn out when they got in. at about 11.30 one night bracken who had been fast asleep sat up and started chewing like she had a sweet stuck in the roof of her mouth, then fell over and started fitting(body shaking, limbs jerking, head arched that far back i thought she was going to break her neck, foaming at the mouth, she also weed and pood). i ended up waking up hubby and crying down the phone to a half asleep vet! after about 7 or 8 mins she stopped the fit but then went into the disorientated, confused state, walking around in circles and then becoming excited! our other dog (7 month old) went loopy and we had to shut him in the conservatory. the vet said that there was nothing she could do as the fit had stopped but to keep an eye on her and call back if she was bad in the morning. eventually she calmed down, drank loads and hungrily ate so we let the other dog in and they both slept in the front room with me. since then she has been fine and we put it down to low sugar levels (vets posible cause) so she had a sweet drink for a couple of days after too. then last night she had one again. again she had been out with us for a run although it was only round a local flower garden and it again it was covered in snow. this time she had been asleep and didnt even sit up, just went into the fit. after both fits her incontinance has been worse and it was just getting better before this new fit. there was no change in behaviour before hand either. because she was fine this morning i havent taken her to the vet but am wondering if to ask for her bloods to be taken? what would or would not show up in a blood test?
could the snow have anything to do with it or do you think it is just a coincedence?
now i am worrying about her sleeping outside at night in case she has another one out there, although i think the pup would make enough noise to wake the neighbourhood! but would he hurt her if she was having a fit?
i apologise for it being so long but i wanted to give you as much info as poss

sarah

I don't think these are due to low blood sugar.  I had a dog that used to be troubled with that and he just went wobbly and fell over. These do sound like full blown fits. Sometimes if the dog has had just the one, vets don't prescribe. I had a dog years ago that fitted and after the second one he was put on meds.

With regards to your other dog, sometimes the strange behaviour in the fitting dog can trigger agression ( not always so don't panic and your other dog is only a pup) but just be aware that its a possibility until your dog is stablised on meds.

I'm afraid I have to say that I am shocked at a lot in your story -a bitch aged 14 giving birth (not being spayed at that age, and having the OPPORTUNITY to mate -the list goes on), then when suffering incontinence (which can happen after spaying) being banished outside to a kennel at her age. :( My own dogs spend a lot of time outside (none live outside) but when they get older, they get extra comforts, not less. Didn't the vet suggest you try Propalin for the incontinence? In bitches this can work well. Otherwise it's a case of managing -it happens in old age to a fair few dogs.

As for the fits -there are no tests that can show the cause (unless possibly if you had an MRI scan done, but then again all this could really show would be a brain tumour, and most cases of epilepsy have other causes that again won't be known or show up) -but if the fits happen every week or so, your bitch could be put onto medication which will manage it. (Also 7-8 minutes is a VERY long fit, and the longer they are, the more dangerous they are, and the more the need for medication. A "normal" fit would last a minute or two at most.) I have an epileptic dog aged 6 and he's not had a single fit for about 2 years now since being put on medication. I also have 15 year old who has fits now and then (only started aged 14) but his are only every three moths or so, so he is not getting medication for them. And you do have to make sure the two dogs are never left alone unsupervised as it has been known for a fitting dog to be attacked and even killed by others. So please be careful. Most fits will occur when the dog has been asleep, so night time is very important.

I'm afraid I have to say that I am shocked at a lot in your story

Yes, I have to agree I almost chewed my tongue off whilst reading the first half of the post.

Neutering at 6 months is what probably caused the incontinence in the first place it is a known side effect of early spaying, so another warning for spaying to be done after the first season. I wouldn't have cast her outside on an evening myself but we are many years down the line now. I personally would have her indoors with me to keep an eye on, it sounds like a very serious fit.

Oh I misread -it was the pup who was incontinent -sorry!

I have got to agree with the others here sometimes a dog fitting can trigger aggression so you will have to watch very carefully.
One thing that is really bothering me is that you just gave up and took her off the inconitinence medication (I use propalin with 1 of my dogs and the vets can recommend you up the dose until you find the right dose for your dog.)
And think of it this way if your dog is lying leaking on her bedding she is lying in urine that would could burn her skin , HOW WOULD YOU LIKE TO LIE IN YOUR OWN WEE!

me again! i am not sure how to reply to all posts so hope this works ok.
we rehomed the original mother and were told by the previous owner that she had occasionally run off for a night or 2 when in season, and had returned with a male friend in the mornings. we took this to mean that she had the oportunity to mate. in all the years we had her we never had her spayed as we saw no reason for it. she wasnt messy when in season, never ran away or had the oportunity to mate. she was a brilliant dog all round. one day she jumped the back fence when out for a wee in the garden and for all the hours we spent looking for her we couldnt find her. eventually she met us back at home. due to her age and history it (neively) didnt accur to me she would have got pregnant. i have no idea how long passed (dont no the gestation period of a dog even to this day!) i had a 2 year old and a 6 week old baby myself and as you do started going for long walks with the dog to loose some of my baby fat! penny (the dog) lost some i never did. one night she kept licking at herself over and over again and i assumed she was comming into season (that was the only sign she gave) i called her to take her into the garden and she was dribbling everywhere. i took her to the vets in a panic and was told they could not see her at that time and to take her home, make her comfy and bring her back at the appointed time the next day. so i did as i was told. during the night my baby woke up for her feed and i went to get her a bottle only to find the dog not where i left her. turns out she was laid out on my 2 year olds bed with a still very wet puppy. there is no way in this world i would go out and encourage a dog of 14 (although a vet thought she was 14 months not 14 years) to concieve!!!
yes it was the puppy that was spayed and resulted in being incontinant. i had never had a puppy before and had no access to the internet and took the word of the vet that spaying at 6 months was a good idea. warnings to do with the procedure were stated but never to do with the age it was being performed/incontinance etc.
as to do with the outdoor living part. i will take responsibility in the fact that at the time i had a lot going on and  she maybe didnt have the training i would have liked to have given her but that is it. her leaking did help make the decision but it was mostly due to the weeing, pooing and chewing anything containing elastic that did it. we tried all sorts including a cage that she soon grew out of. we didnt one day just throw her into the garden like it appears you assume. we bought a large kennel, built on a large porch area and insulated it. that in itself took time. she still comes in all through the day and just goes out on a night time. there are times when her leaking isnt very bad, only these fits have made her a bit worse. the first one more so. she was on the tablets for quite a while and i was told they could try changing them but as it wasnt as bad it was up to me. bothe dogs are regularly bathed and have clean bedding they are not left to sit, lay or sleep in there own urine.
i appreciate i may not have explained everything enough and that you are concerned for there well being but i did come on here for advice because i am concerned. i didnt (obv nievely) realise i would get the reaction i did. thatnkyou for any usefull comments, i think i should prob look somewhere else for any info or help!

Don't let the b's grind you down Bernard's mum!

I remember reading that eating an ice cream (or any iced drink) too quickly if you are very hot can kill you.  I believe it causes massive shock which can stop the heart or somesuch, I really can't be sure. Your dogs were out romping, having fun; in snow that can be hard work and they may have been very hot.  My lad tries to hold snow in his mouth.  If your dog ingested any amount of snow it could possibly have caused a convulsion or fit.

My lad had a similar reaction when he ate something on the beach.  It wasn't poisonous in itself but only a speedy visit to the vet and prompt attention saved his life.  It seemed to me like a massive overreaction that overruns itself and the shock caused a kind of shut down.  How long has she been in the kennel?  Only asking 'cos if it's new there may be something in there she's reacting to?

Your dogs sound as though they are real members of your family.  They are dogs though and you seem to have put a lot of thought into the problems they have presented you with, you've spent mucho time and money to resolve them to the best interests of their health and contentment.  Let some time pass and observe her.  Fits are the most frightening things to observe but you will get somewhat used to them and be able to lift her to a quiet dark corner perhaps?  Placing a dark cover over her face sometimes calms the situation but do not leave her if you try this.

Good Luck.  

Meant to say that when an animal is 'out of control' it threatens the pack/herd safety.  The pup is anxious because his instinct is that he's in a dangerous situation and the 'out of control' animal has to be killed, abandoned or kicked out of the group to protect the pack/herd.  It's worse for him because it puts him in a position that he is not ready to assume.  You did right by removing him but you need to to teach him signals that he is to leave intervention to you and the members of your family. If my dog decides on action that is uncalled for by me I get his attention with a sharp 'Hey!' then when he looks at me I hold my hand out, palm facing him (like a traffic policeman) then follow up with what I want him to do, sit, leave, or go to the side, whatever.  I find body language, hand signals backed up with facial expression and no voice commands work best for me.