I haven't posted here for such a long time - hoping you can help with a moral dilemma!
I have a new rescue dog since November, an 18 month GSDxRottie spayed bitch (spayed in September).
She is unsocialised and was attacked as a puppy by two staffie bitches - she's had 5 homes in 6 months and we're her last chance home, although personally I think there were some mistakes made by the rescue as she was rehomed first to a home with another dog then to a home with an 11 yo boy.

Cut long story short. Lovely dog, trustworthy so far with all adults in and out of house, friendly towards children out of the house, well behaved around horses, loves to chase small animals, loves puppies (can play for hours) and large male dogs, mostly ignores all small dogs esp if they're wearing a coat & wary of large bitches. Our real problem is that if/when a dog growls at her she gets fear aggressive; she doesn't know what to make of it and will over react defensively.

Trainer who has helped us come in leaps and bounds since she arrived is now saying we should run her off lead but use a muzzle just in case. I am finding this very hard to do and I'm worried that her fears are turning into my fears. She recalls fine as long as she's not found a dog to fight with. She recalls from play, sort of recalls from chasing rabbits (after a while) ... but she seems to want to brawl at all costs and of course always finds the one dog in the park that will fight her. I know she can't hurt anyone with the muzzle, but she can still scare people! And of course she could get hurt as well ... I'm really coming to heads with he trainer about this as he feels my OH & I are not assertive/confident enough wherwas we feel our anxiety is quite justified as she is a big dog?

Would love to hear your more experienced views on running dogs in a muzzle. Just to say there has *NOT* ever been any blood drawn during a fight other than the first time she got into a fight and SHE was on a lead and another large bitch came out of the nowhere and jumped her. My dog got bitten in the face and neck and the other bitch got a puncture wound in the leg. Since then all brawls have been without blood but still terrifying (and until now I'd not realised how many aggressive dogs run off lead - I feel like we're constantly being ambushed by aggressive dogs waiting to pounce on us when mine is on the lead. Luckily she is not lead aggressive as she really only fights when the other dog starts something).

sorry i have no experience of using a muzzle but i think it would be a good idea if you found a good training class so your dog could learn some social skills with other dogs around but in a safe enviroment.
one of my dogs is fear aggressive but after a lot of hard work although she want interact with other dogs apart from my other two, she chooses to ignore them or avoid them and this has worked ok for us and i havn't had a fight yet.
The classes would also biuld up your confidence  with her around other dogs and if you have a good bond with her then she hopefully will look to you before reacting in the wrong way if a dog comes up to her. Also her recall will improve which really helps when you need her to come back.
at my training class there's a year old male GS which had no social skills at all with other dogs and although it's a slow process over the last few weeks he has settled really well and is now calm and happy. also his owner has learnt to control him and get his respect ,as she was very nervous with him at first and the dog picked up on this. 

> until now I'd not realised how many aggressive dogs run off lead

Strictly speaking (in terms of Canine language and interaction) This is not so much a case of 'Aggression' but more a case of 'socialisation' (and lack there of)

Putting it another way, here's an analogy:

I've asked you to meet a very important foreign client for me. It's really short notice I'm held up in traffic with a bad mobile connection so can't brief you about him but tell you not worry (as you know nothing of his country or his language) Because he will have a translator.
    When you are ushered into his office you're desperate to befriend him and give the impression we are an honest trustworthy, friendly business so you ensure you hold direct eye contact with him (you remember something about how  liars cant make eye contact) Immediately he seems wary of you (you just get 'that' vibe)
    You are invited to sit and the translator informs you he would like to know if you will take tea? you politely smile and accept and when the cup is passed to you, you raise your left hand to receive it. (you get even more bad vibes he seems to have raised his eyebrows at you and comments to the translator who does not translate what has been said)
   You start to get quite nervous now! You know you have been perfectly polite... what can he possibly be bristling about!? The more nervous you get (as he regards you even more warily) you start, subconsciously to shift nervously you cross your legs and flex your foot.
    With that he explodes! out of the blue, full on hissy fit screeching at the translator and storms from the room!
I walk in and ask you "what on earth did you say!!!?"
    You know you said nothing and were to your mind perfectly polite. The translator tells me He found you to be the most brazen and rudest of women!!
    As it transpires in 'his' language and culture your direct eye contact was extremely rude and was challenging him (where *you* thought you were being open honest and friendly!) Using your Left hand is extremely rude (stemming from old cultural manners when this hand was traditionally used for 'personal hygiene') and the final insult was that you showed him the sole of your foot again in his culture this is extremely disrespectful!

And so... when our dogs through lack of socialisation do not 'speak' or 'act' in canine... you see the end result!
Great article here by Turid Rugaas Calming signals - On talking terms with Dogs

I have been where you are, and can tell you with the right training it can be resolved (15 month Siberian Husky locked in a shed since puppyhood and no interaction with other dogs or ever walked!) I had a snarling, rearing, bratty husky from hell ;-) I now have a very well mannered dog a total difference and a joy to be around for any that meet him :-) My trainer (APBT accredited) was like minded and our ethos was 'set him up to succeed'
    We only moved on to off lead interaction once we were all happy and he was consitently choosing the appropriate behavior himself We used 'stooge' dogs and controlled exercises as set by our trainer ( walking round a 'strange' which was a dog the trainer had chosen as it was good at giving off correct body language and the 'calming signals' mentioned in the article I've linked to. lots of exercises done before we even got to go up to the dog and 'meet and greet' and only when we got consistent behavior with lots of different stooge dogs did we move on to off lead meetings and only when we all agreed we were 'setting him up to succeed' ;O)
    If you have reservations about your trainer suggestions could this be that you have doubt because you have not yet witnessed this consistency in your dog? if this is the case then yes your right and more work is needed otherwise you will blow all your hard work if it all goes to pot and you have not 'set him up to succeed' ;-)

Hope this helps?
(Sorry, I'll pass you a cuppa... you'll have been here a while reading that War&Peace!!! lol)

Hiya,

It sounds like you are doing great with her and IMO you are better to take things slowly and from what you have dscribed so far I would go with your gut instinct not the trainers.  If your girl is fear aggressive then I can't really see what being assertive has to do with it!?  You are quite right that she could get hurt if she was to start a brawl while wearing a muzzle but you aren't right that she couldn't cause any damage - dogs can still hurt each other while wearing a muzzle, less likely and it won't be with teeth unless the muzzle comes off (which can happen) but they can still hurt with sheer brute force, barging and pinning, particularly if there is a size difference.  I know of several instances where dogs weraing muzzles have injured other dogs, including one that broke anothers leg!

Regardless of that, it is not going to do her associations/confidence with other dogs any good if she gets into a fight with them wearing a muzzle or not.  She needs for her interactions with other dogs to be positive ones and if she's not at the stage where she can be trusted off lead not to attack if she goes over to a dog and gets told to go away then I would continue doing the good work that you are and carry on building her confidence and positive associations with other dogs at a distance that she can cope with and gradually get closer and closer as she is comfortable and ready.

Honestly if your trainer thinks it doesn't matter (I don't know if this is the case or she is saying it won't happen?) if she has a spat, as long as she's weraing muzzle then I would be changing trainers.  It's also important that your trainer should be listening to you and if you aren't at the stage where you feel comfortable letting her off lead then that won't help any way.  Maybe you could introduce the use of a long line and harness so that she has more freedom and you could feel like you are still in control and you could both build up some confidence?

I don't have much advice for you except that you should go with your own instinct.  If you are uncomfortable with your dog being off the lead then she will pick up on it. 

This may not be relevant for you but as I also have a rottie it may strike a chord.  I have trouble reading my rotties body language in comparison with my staffy who presents almost caricature overexagerations of behaviour and signals.  My rottie is much less visual with his signals and his looks don't lend themselves to a huge amount of expression whereas my staffy presents as almost human you can read her so easily.

Anyway in an attempt to remedy this I have been reading a lot about body language and signals that dogs give off, particularly the discreet ones.  Like huskygal I totally rate Turid Rugaas but found her books lacking in detail for what I was looking for.  the book I am currently reading is called for the love of a dog by Patricia McConnell and she presents it in an easy to read way but it is based on science and behaviourism (in it's widest sense) and she references many great trainers and thinkers in the dog world (including Turid Rugaas). 

I have found that my dog is giving off micro signals to me that I was missing and now that I am taking them on board, I am finding him easier (not yet easy) to communicate with.  I also have a book by Brenda Aloff that is pretty much all pictures of dogs interacting and illustrating the language they are communicating.  It may be that your dog is giving off discreet signals that other dogs are picking up but you aren't.  I have found that collies seem to go for my rott and most of them we have met launch at him in a not very pleasant way - thankfully he hasn't retaliated yet but seems to retaliate to labs that give him the eye.

Good luck and well done for taking on a task like this dog appears to be.

Thanks for all your help; lots to be starting off with!
I think you are right that I should follow my gut feeling; after all the trainer only sees her in class! I think I will tell him that I want to take things slowly. He's been great so far and has turned an impossible to walk dog into a heel walking pleasure to dog in about 6 weeks. He just needs to see I think that us owners are also just learning -- we're always had big dogs, but always from puppy and always been very lucky to end up with super good sports that never gave us any trouble! So we're beginners and the trainer needs to accept that!

She is walked on a 10m lead daily and when we find a friendly dog to play with I let her off for the duration of the encounter as I don't want to hold her back and hinder her interactions. We are trying to build a social network of dogs in the neighbourhood and so far have several "friends" and several "small dogs" (that she ignores like they don't even exist) so hopefully this is is going in the vein of setting her up for success.

Will look up those references!

Really good posts from HG and others.  You are on your way!  Good Luck.  :-)

It sounds like you are doing a great job and it's lovely to find such a responsible owner.

My girl was attacked a while ago by two dogs, one muzzled, the other not. Whilst she did incurr several puncture wounds and a bad tear from the unmuzzled dog, she was also terribly 'battered' by the dog wearing the muzzle. In some ways the ferocity of the muzzled dog seemed far worse, as it continually attempted to bite into her, and I am sure that if she was a person she would have been black and blue all over.

If your girl is continually having reactive meetings with other dogs, it could be that some of her body language is making the other dogs uneasy around her, thus making them react differently than they would to a well balanced dog. The only remedy for this is to improve her social skills, as you are trying to do. The more positive interactions she has the better. Every time she has a confrontation with another dog, this will set her back and take many positive experiences to rectify.

I think it is irresponsible of your trainer to be pressurising you into allowing her freedom, when you know she is still reactive in certain situations. I would go with your gut instict, at the end of the day it isn't a race. You seem to be making good progress and as she is getting controlled positive interactions with friendly dogs, she will continue to improve.

Some fab advice already, I will try to add my two pence worth.
I agree the trainer may be pushing you a bit - I'd not be happy if a muzzled dog who might possibly fear attack mine, was allowed near to my off lead friendly dog :) It's not fair to use other people's dogs as stooges or "experiments" which I think in a way, the trainer is suggesting, and I would add my voice to the others, that your gut feeling is correct :)

A very good booklet which I think applies here,  is "The Cautious Canine" by Pat McConnell - very helpful for fear aggressive dogs.
Also, "The Dog Aggression Workbook" by James O' Heare - written for owners. (Don't confuse with his yellow Canine one, which is for behaviourists!). Both books will not give answers, but are very supportive, and give behaviour and training ideas designed to give control, plus that invaluable thing - knowledge as to how dogs learn and why they behave as they do :)

You may also be interested in contacting this organistion, which I believe is the one Huskygal contacted:
http://www.apbc.org.uk/help/index
This link
http://www.apbc.org.uk/21st%20Birthday%20Seminaris to their day on Aggression and if you scroll down, you can see a video of the kind of work a member might do with your dog ... desensitising and so on.

Hth and lots of luck, I do think it will come right in the end for you :)

Lindsay
x

I can only give you my own personal experience rather than opinion.

I have a 6 year old sprollie that was attacked at a young age by two other collies from behind whilst he was on a lead - they came out of nowhere and I didnt see them coming to be able to stop them.  As a result he became fear aggressive and if a dog barked, growled etc. he would want to attack.  We have come along way after lots of hard work, rewarding for seeing dogs etc using food mainly to bring his arousal down and this has improved so much. 

we did feel he had reached that point where we needed to be able to let him off for a free run in the presence of dogs so took the choice to muzzle him - this was more for my reassurance rather than his.  He has been fine ever since and has not instigated a fight since.  I still let off lead with a muzzle if there are lot of dogs around but if we are on a general walk then he doesnt wear it anymore. He now competes in agility and has done so for 2 years and is into grade 4 only needing one more win for grade 5. When we are out walking you can see him actively avoiding to meet a dog head on and that is fine by me he is making the choice that works for him.  We did have an incident of a GSD running in on him about a week ago barking and all my boy did was bark back and that was it - this for me proved that all the hard work has paid off.

So for me personally a muzzle worked. 

Sounds like you  have made great progress with a difficult dog! :-)

I just don't see any moral dilemma at all here. You may find that you can relax a whole lot better if she is muzzled and that may help you both enormously. A muzzle just means she can't bite, that's all, and I'm sure she can be taught to accept one. Your trainer should be able to advise you in the best way to teach her. Does give practical problems though...hard to give treats and I don't know of one yet which allows ball fetching! :-)

Your dog, and other dogs', (even horrible brawlers imo :-))  welfare is important. Muzzles are management tools just like leads and collars and if your trainer is so strongly recommending one (and she sounds like she has got things right up to now) then she must have good reason. Think of the legal situaiton as well if your girl should bite another dog, or a person, trying to split things up.

I'd be querying though if you are on track with teaching her how to interact with other dogs appropriately and you predicting and managing situaitons well enough if she is being attacked as often as you imply. I really would be going to great lengths NOT to let her get into any brawls, regardless of any biting.  Maybe that's something to ask the trainer about?

Hope this helps. :-)

Peggotty,

I just don't see any moral dilemma at all here. You may find that you can relax a whole lot better if she is muzzled and that may help you both enormously. A muzzle just means she can't bite, that's all, and I'm sure she can be taught to accept one. Your trainer should be able to advise you in the best way to teach her. Does give practical problems though...hard to give treats and I don't know of one yet which allows ball fetching!

Your dog, and other dogs', (even horrible brawlers imo )  welfare is important. Muzzles are management tools just like leads and collars and if your trainer is so strongly recommending one (and she sounds like she has got things right up to now) then she must have good reason. Think of the legal situaiton as well if your girl should bite another dog, or a person, trying to split things up.

The trainer isn't just advocating the use of the muzzle as a safety management tool though - he is suggesting a muzzle and letting the dog off the lead when clearly the dog is still reacting to other dogs.  I think the introcuduction of a muzzle very slowly and gradually now is a great idea (and there are planty of muzzles you can fit treats throught) if you get your dog used to it gradually now then at least when the time comes you will be able to pop it on her without the added worry that she will dislike it or that she will associate it as a negative thing that she only has on around other dogs. 

However it is not fair on other people to have a dog, even if it is muzzled approaching others in an aggressive manner, what if she approaches another dog that is also being worked with through fears and bad experiences?  As already said dogs can do damage while still wearing a muzzle.  Not only could going to fast undo the work already done but it could scare/hurt other dogs and could stop the muzzled dog improving because she will continually be going beyond her comfort threshold and getting the reinforcement that other dogs are infact scarey.

There is a very big difference between training classes and the outside world and if the trainers isn't seeing the dog in the outside world then they need to listen to the owners.  There is also a very big difference between someone who is a good trinaer and someone who understands more about behaviour and in my opinion if she is saying from what we have been told on here the trainer isn't really understanding the dog is still pretty worried by certain dogs outside of the class room context and that pushing things too fast can cause more harm than good.

I would however agree that the original poster is making great progress with her dog and again that she is right to follow her gut instincts :-)

Hi everyone,

Thanks again and Small update here!

We've started getting her used to the muzzle and I can't help but wonder if someone has done this work with her before we got her as she loves it. When I show her the muzzle she sticks her nose into it and wags her tail (ok the ketchup I smeared on the inside might have helped too!). I also explained my fears to the trainer and he was actually very understanding and agreed that we shouldn't move too quickly - so I feel very relieved as that's taken the pressure off me a little (I hate confrontation). He walked back to the car with us after training so he could see her behaviour in a less controlled environment, but of course she behaved perfectly and was friendly to every other dog we met (!). Hmmmmm.

So the plan is to keep her on the long lead (maybe with the muzzle depending on situation) and to drop the lead in safe situations when both OH and I are out with her so we can run her between us and hopefully keep her attention on us. I have followed up a lot of the suggestions on this thread and am understanding Tess better I think. Whoever said she is not fear aggressive I think was correct. She is un or badly socialised. She likes other dogs to play with, but she will not take no for an answer. She approaches every single dog like she is stalking it - low posture, straight tail, eyes bulging out, hackles up. I find it quite scary, but she just wants to play. But many dogs seem to see her as a defacto threat and until we can change HER approach I will not let her run free as I think her behaviour is what is triggering all the other dogs negative reactions to her. If another dog growls even a little bit, she gets confused and continues trying to play until they "attack" ... then she fights back and gets very vicious very quickly.

Right now she's curled up on her blanket looking like butter wouldn't melt ...
xx
Thanks again! This is really helping me make sense of Tess!

We've started getting her used to the muzzle and I can't help but wonder if someone has done this work with her before we got her as she loves it. When I show her the muzzle she sticks her nose into it and wags her tail (ok the ketchup I smeared on the inside might have helped too!). I also explained my fears to the trainer and he was actually very understanding and agreed that we shouldn't move too quickly - so I feel very relieved as that's taken the pressure off me a little (I hate confrontation). He walked back to the car with us after training so he could see her behaviour in a less controlled environment, but of course she behaved perfectly and was friendly to every other dog we met (!). Hmmmmm.

Hiya,

That's brilliant - her reaction to the muzzle is just what you want, a dog that willingly puts their nose in and even a wag at anticipation of something yummy :-)   I'm so pleased your trainer has been understanding with you speaking to him as the last thing you need at the moment is extra pressure.  Squeezy cheese like primula works really well for muzzle training as well and them you can continue to reward while the dog is wearing the muzzle too, as when you have got to the point where you want to do it up you just pop the cheese nozzle throught the muzzle and give a little squirt :-D  With some muzzles you can fit little chopped up treats through as well, I use hot dog sausage or cocktail sausages and the like - just depends on the type of muzzle.

I'd be interested to hear how you are getting on with her and would love to hear updates :-D

Just thought I'd give an update!

We are still mostly on the long line, specifically as she is learning to pay attention to us/play with us ... and of course can't pick up toys with the muzzle so loses interest quickly (can't win!!) ... however we have started letting her off to swim in a local dew pond. She loves swimming and is happy to play nicely with other dogs as long as everyone is swimming! Maybe this is less threatening to her. We have started walking away when we feel it is time to go and we head towards the forest and call her from a little further away and she actually leaves the other dogs behind and comes to us. We have to grab her quick or she runs back to the pond, but she seems to be learning that if she sits still she gets rewarded by removal of the muzzle + long line + playing with a toy!

... More interesting, we've just been away for a week and Tess was in kennels ... and she was out with other dogs every day and although there were a few she had to be kept away from she made some friends there, so I'm hoping this will have been good for her social development as she might now see that not all other dogs are evil (outside water!!).

>We have started walking away when we feel it is time to go and we head towards the forest and call her from a little further away and she actually leaves the other dogs behind and comes to us.>

you seem to be doing a great job - hope you're managing to enjoy yourself too. 
Maybe you could try running away and having a game with her when she comes to you

> We have to grab her quick or she runs back to the pond, but she seems to be learning that if she sits still she gets rewarded by removal of the muzzle + long line + playing with a toy!>

Oh you're doing that already,  I mean the next step is to encourage her to keep on following you - not a sit [really boring:-)] extra fun and games with owners  - "this is what I want to do" - will help you onto the next stage - ie you've got her coming - so keep her wanting to follow much further 'cos it's so much fun.