Hi, i have recently sold the last of my first litter, i was going to keep the first born as i felt attached to him as he was breathing when he was born and we nearly lost him 2weeks old too. I decided after a painful but thoughful discussion with my other halve that it wouldnt be a good idea to keep the male as we have two bitches both whom are getting spayed next month. I met the couple who adopted him and his sistet and felt they were going to a great home so was relieved we went k owing they would take care of him and he would have his sistet with him - they are getting both the sister and him done to make sure they dont breed. Ive had regular updates and they seem to be doing great, i now however have been given a large breed puppy due to serious neglect of a family friend, is it normal to feel you made the wrong decision and i am upset and think about what if we kept him. This was my first litter so does this effect the way im feeling?
Sorry to ramble on i just need to know if anyone else has had the feeling and will it pass?? Did i nake the right decision for him and his mum not to keep him?

You may well have made the wrong decision completely, not many very experienced breeders would allow two puppies to go together, I hope that the new owners are very experienced dog people with the time to give each pup lots of individual attention.  Two pups will bond with each other making training and bonding with their owners much more difficult and they will most likely charge around playing with each other and taking no notice of their owner, so I hope for yours and the pups sake that these people know what they are letting themselves in for, you may very well end up having one back.

I don't understand if your two bitches are getting spayed next month why you couldn't keep the male pup?

Besides all that, what is done is done and yes everyone feels upset when their litter goes it leaves a horrible large hole and we all feel a little lost, but once you have updates, photo's, maybe even visits of your pups it makes it all feel a lot better, I always console myself by looking at the happiness I have given other people and if any of your pups go on to win at shows etc you can fill your heart with pride. :-)

Just make sure that you stay in touch with all owners as you also have to be prepared for always taking back a pup or adult dog, so you never know you may end up with one back.

I guess taking in a different pup will also bring home that you should have in reflection kept one of your own breeding, just keep in touch with those owners who took the two pups as you never know they may find two too much.

They are experinced dog owners that have bred my breed before however they are now looking for pet breeds now that they have sold their kennels and moved. They no longer doing breeding, i was reluctant to let two go together but they said they are doing well, i have obviously given them a puppy pack and they live 5 miles from me and have told any of the new owners i will have them back any time. The reason i decided it was best if he goes as me and my OH decided the next dog will be the last dog we have until one passes to rainbow bridge and my OH have always wanted a large breed dog and one arose weeks after selling the last pup.  

Sorry but I don't understand why you would produce a litter of puppies without planning to keep one, and I certainly wouldn't have let 2 puppies go to the same home unless there was a particularly good reason for them having two, so I don't understand your confusion. :(

The reason i decided it was best if he goes as me and my OH decided the next dog will be the last dog we have until one passes to rainbow bridge and my OH have always wanted a large breed dog and one arose weeks after selling the last pup. 

There you go then you have answered your own question for whatever reason you knew that the breed you have now you didn't want as your last ever dog and wanted a large breed instead. I'd say that you got your wish then. ;-)  And your just suffering puppy blues at the moment which will eventually go away. Let's face it right decision or not - it's too late, so just hug the pup you have now and you'll feel better soon.

"Sorry but I don't understand why you would produce a litter of puppies without planning to keep one"

I don't think anyone should feel compelled to keep a pup back from every litter they have. Sometimes, there isn't a pup worthy of being kept - or if there is, it may be the wrong sex or even colour. I will be after a specific colour in my next litter and granted I do have an excellent chance of getting it (but it has to be a bitch), and there are no guarantees that there will definitely be a "keeper" in the litter. Your chances are limited if like me, your breed does not tend to have big litters. You shouldn't keep a pup for the sake of it - it should be because it is an improvement on what you already have.

When the OP is already clearly feeling low about their decision, why feel the need to make them feel even more guilty ?

Just try to enjoy your new puppy, your decisions have been made and you are happy that both puppies will have a good life with their family, if you are there and willing to take one back should there be the need then you can do no more now.

Good luck with your new puppy

I bred from my bitch with little intention of keeping one - I want to space out my ages by about 5 years between dogs, so I can't breed a first litter at that age. If there had been a stunning bitch in the litter I would have kept her and not bred again, but as there were only males, I sold both, and this year intend to breed another litter which will hopefully have that bitch puppy I want! When the puppy is old enough, if she is health checked ok and a good temperament and type, I will breed from her, again planning on 1 litter at 2.5 or 3 years, and another for me to keep a puppy at 5 years. So I don't agree that you should never breed if you don't want to keep one.

And in answer to the OP, as long as you keep in touch and are prepared to assist if problems arise, there is no reason why everything shouldn't be fine. I bought 2 puppies at the same time (different breeds but both breeders were aware) and they grew up like litter mates with no problems (until I added a bitch 2 years later, but that's another thing entirely!). Personally I wouldn't have 2 the same age again, but it works fine for many people.

Precisely LucyDogs - not everyone is in a position, or even wants to keep a pup from each and every litter, I too like to space mine out since I am not the type of breeder who can just rehome a bitch retired from breeding to make way for the new one - nor would I wish to fill my house with so many dogs that I cannot do them justice. As you say, if you are only able to keep one every five years to continue your line, you cannot wait that long to allow a bitch to whelp a first litter !

So to the OP enjoy your pup and I am sure the two that have gone to the same home will be ok as their owners are experienced - but you are there should they need you.

"Sorry but I don't understand why you would produce a litter of puppies without planning to keep one"

cavlover wrote:  I don't think anyone should feel compelled to keep a pup back from every litter they have.

In defence of Westcoast that is not what she said or implied,   she said,  why produce a litter without " planning" to keep one back. That is entirely different. 

Of course we all know that the " planned" litter may not give us what we wished for, but most good breeders have planned litters because they are looking for the next quality puppy.    Some people are fortunate enough to get it in the litter more so with numbers of 5-6 plus but I would imagine very small litters of 4 and less have a lesser chance statistically.  Even just getting the sex we want then all the rest your require after that but there is a difference to "intending & Planning" to keep one rather than just have the litter for the sake of it.

I understood WC's post perfectly and didn't see any harm in it.

I know what you mean blue - but I also happen to agree with LucyDogs, who makes a very valid point as to why it is not possible for everyone to plan to keep a pup from every litter, but whom needs to breed to continue their line. Ie. they may be in a position to keep a pup from say a 2nd litter, but breed the 1 st litter because they don't want their bitch to be too old to have that first litter. I hope that makes sense.

but I also happen to agree with LucyDogs, who makes a very valid point as to why it is not possible for everyone to plan to keep a pup from every litter, but whom needs to breed to continue their line.

This is understandable but not the situation that I was replying to.  This OP doesn't want to maintain the line - they don't even want the same breed!  Which is why I don't understand the point of breeding this litter and therefore I also don't understand the confusion but I'm sure that time will be a good healer, especially now that there is another puppy to think about.

Ok point taken. :-)

> I don't think anyone should feel compelled to keep a pup back from every litter they have. Sometimes, there isn't a pup worthy of being kept - or if there is, it may be the wrong sex or even colour.

I quite agree, but as both of the OP's bitches are being spayed (so no chance of trying again to get what they want) it all seems rather pointless as they have nothing to continue with, so what was the point in breeding the litter, unless they are handing on the batton to someone else to continue theri bloodlines????

I have been feeling the same way from my last litter. I had 8 pups reserved before the mating but most of them were for definate colours and sexes. We very nearly lost my bitch during whelping and a week later due to an infection so I had to hand rear them all. We were left with 6 pups and unfortunately one of the pups that had been reserved died so  I had to offer the buyers the only corresponding pup which was the one I had chosen for myself as he was the absolute ideal I had bred for in every single way. And what made it worse is that he was first born and the only one that had been born at home. He was breech and the sac had ruptured and he got stuck so I had to jelly up and dive in to get him out. He was dead and I spent a very frantic, sweaty and heart-breaking half hr reviving him and his lungs were full of fluid. After taking mum to the vets for her section he came home with us for us to feed and work on and the next 5 hrs while we were waiting to collect mum was spent exclusively with him and both hubby and I bonded very strongly with him. It broke my heart to let him go as he ended up being the largest, strongest, most loyal and comical of all the pups. I couldn't have asked for a better home for him but we were still devastated. They send me photos and update email every sunday which is lovely and very much appreciated but we still miss him.

We were left with 6 pups and unfortunately one of the pups that had been reserved died so  I had to offer the buyers the only corresponding pup which was the one I had chosen for myself as he was the absolute ideal I had bred for in every single way.

I'm afraid I don't see the sense in this either. The pup you as the breeder have chosen is the pup you keep -if there isn't a suitable one for one or more buyers, well then that's a shame, but I wouldn't dream of selling the one I had picked for myself. Again then there was no point to the litter.

> I'm afraid I don't see the sense in this either. The pup you as the breeder have chosen is the pup you keep -if there isn't a suitable one for one or more buyers, well then that's a shame, but I wouldn't dream of selling the one I had picked for myself.

Dead right!  I have a breed that has small litters, and when one of my girls had just two boys, I really had to be honest and say that I have enough males.  So, yes I had a litter and didn't keep a pup.

But my current litter has exactly what I want, and I'm over the moon.  Sorry to say that if I had 10 people waiting for exactly this type, colour, sex etc.  they would be let down.  This mating was to produce a pup for ME!  :-)

> We were left with 6 pups and unfortunately one of the pups that had been reserved died so  I had to offer the buyers the only corresponding pup which was the one I had chosen for myself as he was the absolute ideal I had bred for in every single way.
>
> I'm afraid I don't see the sense in this either. The pup you as the breeder have chosen is the pup you keep -if there isn't a suitable one for one or more buyers, well then that's a shame, but I wouldn't dream of selling the one I had picked for myself. Again then there was no point to the litter.

I totally agree.  If I had planned a litter and had decided to keep a pup for myself, ok, the other buyers would have to wait until I had decided which was the best conformation-wise, but there is no way I would give up MY pup just to get a sale.  I would put the people who haven't been allocated a pup onto another breeder or to the breed club.      My last litter, I had bookings for 7 males, I only had 2 and for some bizarre reason I kept one although I had no intentions of doing so.   I could've sold those 2 dog pups three times over but I sold one, kept one and passed the excess enquiries onto another breeder as she was floundering for sales.

Yes I can understand how that came across but their pup died at 4 days old and at that time I obviously hadn't seen the pup in question develop and thought that I was upset because of what we went through with him. It was only as he developed I realized how amazing he was but I just couldn't go back on my word. Lesson well and truely learned.

That is why you never commit to anything when pups are young.   You tell potential buyers that the pups are born and then they just have to be patient.

I'm afraid I don't see the sense in this either. The pup you as the breeder have chosen is the pup you keep -if there isn't a suitable one for one or more buyers, well then that's a shame, but I wouldn't dream of selling the one I had picked for myself. Again then there was no point to the litter.

Yes I can understand how that came across but their pup died at 4 days old and at that time I obviously hadn't seen the pup in question develop and thought that I was upset because of what we went through with him. It was only as he developed I realized how amazing he was but I just couldn't go back on my word.

Exactly why I don't let families choose their puppies - I match pups to families, and then only after I've chosen mine, usually between 6-7 weeks.
I have a litter for me and then share with others what I don't keep.  There is no way that I'd go to the lengths that I do to travel to the chosen stud dog and then spend 8 weeks with little sleep and on my hands and knees just to hand over all the puppies for the sake of a few pounds in the bank.  But then these are the differences between the purposes for breeding. :(

As I said, lesson learned. I was patheticy weak and should have put myself first. It won't be happening again. I'm not as experienced as most of the people on here so this is probably one of those lessons you have to learn the hard way!!!!!

I booked a pup once, and that one died at a month of age. I was heartbroken, but there was no way I'd expect the breeder to sell me the one she was keeping. I won't tell anyone anything for certain until puppies or kittens are at the very least 2 weeks old, ideally older, as before then you just don't know if they will live or not, anything can happen.

After reading this and the other thread about the woman deliberately breeding from the elderly crossbreed, I'm sitting here looking at the screen shaking my head in disbelief.

I have more boys in this litter, but i got my girl i am really pleased, to be honest i would of kept a boy if i only had boys as they are all stunning, maybe not all show type but stunning to us! I am still thinking about keeping one boy back, but we love them all.

Ditto Christine. I have been doing it all day to be honest.   Shaking my head that is.

  I don't get it at all.   I would never commit to that many buyers when the litter is not born nor when it was.

I am probably a bit luckier for once in that it can be a bit easier to run a couple on due to their size but no way would anyone get my pick.   After all the work, hope, time , lack of sleep.    You would need to knock me out to get it out my house.   

We clearly have a big variation on the board. 

>no way would anyone get my pick.

I had to sell my pick from my last litter. I wanted a bitch, but had absolutely zero dog enquiries - if I hadn't sold the bitch I wanted then I'd have had to keep three puppies!!!! (the two boys, which as nobody wanted them obviously had to stay here, and the bitch I wanted) which doesn't bear thinking about. Sometimes one has to let the head rule the heart and be practical.

After all the work, hope, time , lack of sleep.    You would need to knock me out to get it out my house

:-D :-D I'm with you there, I would have had to say sorry and pass them over.

But, I can see this from both sides, part of breeding is developing a hard face about things, often people don't imagine they need to be that way but often we do, we have to turn people away whilst vetting, we have to have the final say in which pup goes where and if a pup dies we have to be able to say, I'm very sorry................

I dare say our OP got to know all her pups owners very well after careful vetting and brought them along the journey with her ending up with very excitedly phoning them when the pups were born, unfortunately she was probably too new and too upset for the people who were to have the pup that died to turn them away, in other words she was too nice, not a fault but something you often have to bypass to be a breeder, she behaved as a person with feelings for the new owners, not as a breeder, I dare say she learnt from it, but I wouldn't judge her too harshly, she did what she felt was right. :-)

When I got my girl I had been on the waiting list for over a year, got to know the breeder so well, the Dam had 2 bitches only and I had that excited phone call, the breeder was keeping one, I had the other, but she did give me first choice, if one had died, I'm more than sure she would have let me have the remaining bitch, she knew how desperate I wanted to have her.

So I guess it is all swings and roundabouts, I think sleepwhatsleep learnt a valuable lesson, you have to be tougher and develope that shell and keep what you want. It's all part of breeding.

I'm often suprised when I read how some breeders are so 'involved' with the emotions of their potential buyers.
I suppose many are concerned that they must sell the litter and therefore try to tie in as many people as they can before and during the early days of a litter.
Letting people believe that they are having a puppy, secured at just a few days old, to the point that feel they must replace it with their pick of litter is madness to me.

The worst thing with breeding a ( healthy) litter, to me, is the people trying to pester me as to which I might sell to them, so I tell folk to leave me alone!

One of the best bits is when no one knows about them and I can enjoy them in peace until I'm absolutely sure which one I want;

> I'm often surprised when I read how some breeders are so 'involved' with the emotions of their potential buyers.
>

Oh I get very involved with the people I have chosen to put on my waiting list, ti is one of the pleasures for me of breeding, the new friendships and extended family it often creates.

I have had people waiting a long time for one of my pups or when I have not been able to help have put them onto someone else who happily had a cancellation or whose litter had what i didn't.

Some of these I am still involved with even though their pup didn't come from me, and it's lovely, but then I am a gregarious person, and apart of the reason fro me being in dogs is the social aspect.

For a long time as a lone parent it was my only social outlet with the kind of people I like to be around those with a shared interest/passion).

My very first puppy buyer has been my best friend in dogs, she has ferried me to countless shows, stayed to the end when I have done well, and she has 1.5 hour journey to pick me up and that extra to do when dropping me off after a show, and coming off the motorway to pick me up adds an extra hour to her journey that day.

Sadly she lost that first bitch at two years old, total mystery she just dropped dead.  She then had a pup from my breeder, out of a half sister of the one she lost. 

Her next was a male from me out of the litter sister of her original bitch.  Then I had a male pup come unstuck from his half sister at just 20 weeks, she was going to foster him, but kept him.

She was then able to have pick bitch from a litter sired by her older male whose mother was by an import I owned in partnership. 

Last March this bitch had her and her breeders first litter after owning 5 generations. 

My husband and I went down to help her with the whelping and stayed a week.  All my dogs came too and had to camp out in the back of her truck at night, and when not in the garden in the day (her cottage would not have allowed the bitch enough privacy with her four other dogs and my five).

In a numerically small breed yes one often needs to wait for the right new owner, so you do want to be sure of them, as you end up passing up good potential owners, but also puppies are not off the shelf either so one usually has a chance to develop a long relationship prior to them having a puppy.

I actually hate not having this when occasionally one has a puppy ready and the new owner only then appears, doesn't give long to make your mind up about them.

I think I've passed the 'not being too nice' test then - when Ellie had her pups 2 years ago, a very nice couple were very keen on one pup from the beginning, I said all along I had others interested and would decide nearer the time, but when I did decide against them (about to move to America and start a family!) they got really nasty and sent emails claiming I had wasted their time and let them down!

Dont get me wrong,whilst I do make very good friends with the people who eventually get my pups , before I get to know them, they are not my first concern.
I've got a couple coming to stay for our club show from Finland. I let them have a male puppy last year but not until I had the luxury of having the pups all to my self until I chose which to let go.

My point ...... are pups for sale a neccessary by- product of breeding a litter where the sole reason is to get something yourself.
or is it to produce puppies and if there's a nice one, be tempted to keep one.

A difference I think....

and one which may make the buyer more important than the reason to produce the litter in the first place.

I think in that situation JG everyone could understand expecially if you just couldn't sell the other two BUT the posts above are just not along these lines and are not similar in anyway.

But, I can see this from both sides, part of breeding is developing a hard face about things

Oh I know it can be awfully tough at times, I learned at the beginning and now I rarely let all be booked less just one now as I do often run a couple on even till 12-16 weeks where I may then go down to one.

My last litter I was keeping the pick regardless of the sex , my pick stood out from 6 weeks so all others were booked. Last to book was couple who had bought one from me previously so I know/knew them very well.  My pick of the litter died just a couple days off 8 weeks old.  The day before the couple were coming to get their puppy I had to call them explain and tell them their puppy was my second pick and that I would be keeping it now.    It was awful to do it but no way would I go through all that work and hand it over or in my case the second place that replaced the 1st.   I don't really like breeding as it is so for me that potentional of a special puppy at the end is what keeps me going.  :-)

So I guess it is all swings and roundabouts Going to have to disagree with you on that one Carrington :-D :-D   My overwhelming feelings would not make me hand a puppy over that had great potential for the breed and in the ring. Different perhaps in the extreme cases as in JG case but that would be the except not the rule or swinging in roundabouts :-D :-)

My point ...... are pups for sale a neccessary by- product of breeding a litter where the sole reason is to get something yourself.
or is it to produce puppies and if there's a nice one, be tempted to keep one.

A difference I think.... 100% with you on this one Tooolz that was my thinking about different types of breeders.

While I do agree with JG in most respects, the the poster has made it clear that she was NOT planning to keep a pup regardless.  It seems on the face of things, she had decided to sell all the litter, possibly making an excuse that she had promised the bitch, but we cannot be sure, maybe she was weak, and just didnt have the courage to say no...

I have done the same.. I plan to keep at least one pup from any litter I have had, and on the whole, have kept 2 pups each time, sometimes running on both,  but, I did have a litter where I could not turn round and say no.... Emma had 2 pups, the boy was pet quality only, and I would never have bred from him, nor shown him.  I had promised a girl (if there was one) to a family who had an autistic son, they visited every week, during pregnancy, bonding with Emma, and when the pups were born, there was only the one girl, It would have crucified me to turn round and tell them they could not have her, and as it turned out, she was also only pet quality, so I would have let her go anyway... BUT.. the litter was initially planned with the prospect of keeping at least one pup..

On the other hand, I am keeping 2 pups from the litters I have just had, there is no way that I would dream of letting the girl go, simply because I have a couple of male pups too many, SHE is the reason for having the litter in the 1st place (Ollies daughter and Blue's grandaughter :-)... and could have sold her 50times over... and let 2 people on my waiting list down who were waiting on a girl...

Sorry, but being weak, just because you cannot say no, in MOST circumstances is not a good enough excuse