Hi Folks

I wonder if anyone can help me out on this, i am going to breed my bitch only as a hobby and not as a breeder but do i still need to buy a kennel name from the kennel club.

Thanks

you dont need one to register puppies with, depends what you are breeding for, if for working or showing, it will be a way of other exhibitors to quickly recognise what you have bred

>> I wonder if anyone can help me out on this, i am going to breed my bitch only as a hobby and not as a breeder<<

How can you not become a breeder if you are going to breed from your bitch????

Why are you breeding from her?   I don't want to know her breed (it would be against TOS on the breeding forum in any case) - but do you show her?   Do you work her?    Is she an outstanding example of her breed in the eyes of people other than yourself?  People who really know and appreciate the breed?    Has she had all the necessary health tests as required by your breed club?    Has her breeder lifted breeding restrictions on her registration?     Do you intend to keep one of her offspring?   

There are a whole lot more questions that are far more important than do you need to buy a kennel name from the kennel club!

If you breed one litter you're a breeder, just like you become a parent when you have one child -even if you then have no more. :)

Anyone who owns a bitch that has even one puppy is a breeder, and needs to take the task very seriously - they are responsible for those puppies for the whole of their lives. The rules for breeding (health tests - hips, eyes, BAER, DNA etc, dependent on breed for sire and dam; independent assessment to ensure the bitch is close enough to the breed standard for her genes to be valuable to the breed) apply just as much to the one-off breeder as they do to the serious show or working breeder.

No, you don't need a kennel name (but it shows you're serious about your puppies always being connected with you).

Im not planning on working or showing them but depends on what the new owners of the puppies where going to do with there pup

have you got a list of people that want your puppies?

Peanuts

sorry to pry, but do you mind me asking the reason behind wanting to breed, it might help us answer your question

she has had all the reqiured tests etc for breeding and i plan on keeping 2 pups from her litter.

she has good papers alot of champions in her line and has an excellent temperment and would be keeping 2 of her pups one for mmyself and for my sister.

Why would you keep two puppies, most experienced owners and breeders will tell you that this is very rarely a good idea.

Type in Two puppies into the search facility and you will find a few threads on this topic giving the reasoning behind this.

Breeding should be done with some kind of long term aim other than simple reproduction.

A good pedigree is only of use to someone who knows what the names mean.  the fact that there are lots of champions means little if you do not know what their influence has been what their good and less good points and the same of any stud dog you use.  Fro this reason a novice breeder needs the knowledge of experienced people in their breed until they have been around long enough to know such things for themselves.

To be honest if you just want a puppy for yourself and your not trying to establish/develop/preserve a bloodline then it is far cheaper to buy in another puppy from breeding you admire, where all the hard work and research on lines etc has been done fro you.

A once only litter will not only have the expense of that litter but the outlay for all the equipment etc that will be needed.

Done properly you will have very little over after expenses and that can easily be swallowed up in vets fees, rehabilitation/maintenance costs of returned pups (could involve kennelling if your bitch is in season or the pup/dog is not sociable etc).

Also as a first and one time breeder will you have sufficient knowledge and contacts to help with any issues the pups new owners will have, will you still be able to help in 12 years time if one needs re-homing then?

in everyones opinion i should get a kennel name to associate the pups with.

>Im not planning on working or showing them

I'm assuming your bitch (and the prospective sire, of course!) has proved herself in the showring or working field, for you to know that she's worthy of being more than a much-loved pet?

(And please don't keep two puppies - it's a recipe for disaster; unfair on you and both puppies.)

hi brainless

i am keeping one pup for myself and the other will be given to my sister as a family pet, the others would be sold to genuine serious owners.

It has nothing to do with making money as my vet has already informed me about costs for jags, checkups microchipping, worming and all other costs that my arise plus bills running up to the pregnancy. Costs for food, whelping box, heat pad, registration, stud fee and any other costs etc.

As this is my first time breeding from my dog and possibly another litter in the future and yes the pup i keep wether male or female i would also consider breeding from them.

Any pups i would have from my girl that where no longer to be kept by there new owner i would certainly take them back and try to rehome them or keep the dog no matter what age even in 5 years time.  If you breed and have pups then sell them to new owners they are still your pups and always will be and i feel you will always have an obligation to that dog for its while life.

I have not enquired about showing my girl at any shows etc as of yet but possibly will and would also with her pup.

The main reason for my enquiry is yes i am going to breed from my dog and possibly from the pup i keep also but this would only be from home. i am not planning on building kennels and buying dogs from different bloodlines and breeding loads of litters each year so would i still need to buy a kennel name from the kennel club.

Have you discussed this with the owner of the stud dog you are going to use?

hi biffsmum

i have explained all of this to the owner of the stud dog im going to use and she is very happy to breed with my dog.

She has been breeding for over 10 years and is willing to pass as much help and information as she can and will assist in selling the pups.

whats with all the negative advice, most people on here have bred a litter everybody has to start somewhere what about helping and answering the question instead of lecturing, people ask question on here because there are alot of experienced breeders who knowledge is valuable they dont come on here to be told to get there bitch spayed etc all people want is a little advice!!

From reading your posts you say that you want to breed your bitch as a hobby but later say that you might have more litters and maybe litters from a puppy, you do come under the banner of being a breeder, and you would own several generations, which can hold its own probs.

Do you kneed a kennel name to breed no, most people that have kennel names have it so that the pups would be affiliated with them i.e in working trials or in the show ring and cracking health tests those people spent a lot of time and money into making the names carry any weight.

Badly bred pups will also be traced back to the kennel i.e some puppy farms have kennel names it doesn't mean they are any good.

I don't think people are trying to be mean to you, yes you are right people do have to start somewhere, why don't you wait to see if the pups from the first litter are good enough in trials, because not all lines go together at all you might find this.

If they are good then apply for the kennel name and have the names of the dogs you own transfered to it. You need time to find out if your proposed lines are good together. But if you just want family pets then don't bother, as it doesn't make any odds to the dogs so long as they are happy.

Also to takes quite a while for a kennel name to go through we have just got ours the other week, but cant use it until its published in the kc breeders supplement in March then wait to see if its disputed thats another 6 week wait that's without transfering any of the dogs names across to the new kennel name

Hi triona and everyone who has read my post.

Im really sorry to everyone for wording my first post wrongly.

I would be calling myself a breeder as i am going to have pups.

When i mean as a  HOBBY BREEDER i would call that somebody who would be breeding from the family home with one or two dogs and a SERIOUS BREEDER i would call that someone who has kennels and loads of dogs from different lines and breeds alot of litters per year.

This is my first time at breeding and if successful i would breed again and all i wanted to know if i needed a kennel name cos the kennel club said you should register for one.

I have spent alot of time...

1. looking for the right stud dog
2. read alot of books on the breed of  my dog.
3. spent alot time talking to my vet about costs.
4. Spoke to other people who have had litters to find out about the pros and cons about breeding.
5. also i am well aware about the fact that i may have to take dogs back if the new owners could no longer look after it.

I know its not like go buy a dog, breed that dog and make loads of money that dont work.

I thought this forum was to help people like me who are looking for answers to help them out and not tell them its a really bad thing, dont do it.

Thank you

all i am looking for is some help

cant agree more people on here are only doing what others are trying to do and think they can judge!!
good luck i hope you find the advice you need

please do not take comment to heart on here... no body sets out to offend someone who is interesting in breeding.... people just try to explain the risks of breeding. you'll be surprised how many "idiots" come on here for info on breeding when they are interested in creating designer dogs, untested dogs etc.... people on here just have the dogs best welfare at heart.
every new breeder on here, including myself gets a grilling at first, its a way that we use to find the intentions of the breeder, a lot just see dogs as money machines, which is why people may seem a little harsh. dont be put off by this, it sorts out the men from the boys if you get me. :-)
x

Hi Darren69,

I have only bred 3 litters in the space of 22 years of owning the breed I do.    I do not believe in the term 'hobby' breeder.  All my dogs live in the house, they were/are shown, they are my pets first & foremost but I take breeding very seriously.  The only reason to breed in my eyes, is to improve on the previous generation - conformation wise.  There's an awful lot of poor representatives of every breed out there who have been bred from with the breeder having no idea of what they are wanting to achieve but get swept away with the idea that using a Champion or their bitch having lots of Champions in their pedigree is the way to go.

It was 7 years before I bred my first litter.  I sat at the ringside, studied old handbooks, took photos of dogs, tried to gather as much worldwide information about my breed and the lines out there etc.   A friend of mine says 'Give Christine a Munsters name and she can reel off the 5 generation pedigree from memory'.  I try to look at siblings, gather information on the siblings too especially regarding health, look for the desirable & less desirable points that stud dogs may throw in their progeny and dams too.  

Anyone can put 2 dogs together & breed a litter but I want to breed and be proud of what I am breeding and know that I'm improving on what I started with.    

Darren, you have your definitions mixed up :-)  A serious breeder is like Christine above, they may only breed one litter every 4 or 5 years but they take breeding very seriously.

You have described a puppy farmer (you call serious) and a backyard breeder (that you call hobby), no serious breeder would have lots of different lines??

When you say 'if successful you would breed again' what is your criteria for success? Is it simply managing to rear and home a litter of pups, or is it those pups going on to compete and do well in their chosen fields?

> The main reason for my enquiry is yes i am going to breed from my dog and possibly from the pup i keep also but this would only be from home.

Most breeders worthy of the name (and the ethical breeders on this site), not those who simply produce puppies breed in the way you describe, from family companions reared in their own homes, possibly having some kennelling facilities if they have more or larger dogs than comfortably fit in the house at once ;) or for litters to have shelter and space outdoors as they grow.  Most such breeders would genrally breed once or twice a year (often depends on breed and the number of pups in litters) or often a lot less.

These are the people who are serious about their breeds and breed liens and that is why they apply to have a Kennel name as it is like a brand name that they can be proud of their dogs achievements.

As you have not shown or worked your bitch, though you are starting with the best of aims you are really putting the cart before the horse.

To do justice to any litter you need to study the breed and this means seeing the cream of the breed at shows and working if applicable.  How can you choose a suitable stud if you have not seen what various dogs have produced to different bitch lines?

I am assuming your bitch has been hip scored and eye tested and has good results from these and any other breed specific health tests (health tested does not mean a physical at the Vets).

So assuming your bitch isn't yet close to five years of age making breeding from her soon advisable for a first litter, you need to start showing/working your bitch to determine if she is a good representative of her breed, and get to see potential stud dogs.  During this time you will be able to meet and hopefully be befriended by experienced people in your breed to teach and guide you.

It may turn out that your bitch is not the quality to be bred from, but you will have learnt a lot from taking part with her, and will be able to view bloodlines that you admire and perhaps buy a better breeding prospect at some future date, thereby getting off on the best foot as a breeder of quality dogs.

On the other hand she may be a fine bitch to found your breeding on, and you will be able to better judge what mate will suit her by viewing the offspring of bitches of her family.

>i am not planning on building kennels and buying dogs from different bloodlines and breeding loads of litters each year so would i still need to buy a kennel name from the kennel club.

The above is the common misconception that many people outside the dog world sadly have, ti is generally a sign of the commercially driven puppy producer, not a reputable breeder whose main interest is their breed.

Lets just say you were breeding cats with the Governing Council of the Cat Fancy...
You would not be permitted to register a Cattery name with them until you had been a member of a recognised Breed Club for several years and countersigned by other members.
So therefore, a Cattery name is held in very high esteem, as you will have had to fulfill certain requirements. (And yes, I have one though I no longer breed cats).

With the KC you can register a kennel name without any of this. If you want to, you can have one. But it won't give you any added kudos or value to your pups at all.... unless the buyers are naive and not aware that anyone can buy a kennel name. It wouldn't be fair to register one and thereby claim you're something you're not (if you get my drift). You can register your pups without a kennel name. Don't use that name to pimp yourself up, if that's what you're thinking.... would be wrong.

Darren, have you read this post from the Breeding forum? It explains the responsibility of breeding very well.

It's worth remembering that only about 10% of pedigree animals are good enough to breed from - the pedigree is a good place to start, but within a litter (and so with an identical pedigree) there will be more puppies that shouldn't be bred from than are worthy of continuing their genes. It's very very important that each potential breeding animal has been independently assessed by at least one unbiased (because we all think our dogs are the bee's knees!) breed expert - which is where showing and/or working trials come into their own. If a bitch is generally well-placed at shows (not necessarily winning, but not always being unplaced) then she has potential as a breeding bitch.

Of course she'd also need to have passed all the breed-relevant health tests (hip x-rays, BAER testing, annual eye testing by a specialist ophthamologist vet etc) as would the sire - hereditary health is very important.

Are you a member of your breed club? That's one place to get an awful lot of invaluable specialist advice.

Re costs.  Unless your vet is a breeder they won't know the half of it ;)

My brother had a beautiful Bitch, exceptionally well-bred, did really well in the show ring - very difficult in that breed for newcomers .  She was also a brilliant worker in the field.   They were really serious about breeding and researched all the different lines, had all the health tests done - Hips scored, eyes tested etc.  and found a fantastic stud dog who complemented the bitch beautifully and they had two well-known breed mentors.  They also had a puppy list of people wanting one of the pups.  Things couldn't have been more perfect :)  the breed is one that whelps easily whithout vet assistance.

The bitch was duly bred and was healthy throughout, she didn't show much sign of being pregnant but not unusual for the breed and a scan showed all was well, vet wouldn't give numbers of pups but assured them more than one. 
The bitch went overdue but the vet was happy to wait as she was fine.  My brother, on the other hand, wasn't happy, couldn't put his finger on why but I advised him to get to the vet and get the bitch x-rayed if he was really worried, which he did.

It turned out that the bitch was having only one pup and it was huge, she hadn't gone into labour properly and needed an emergency c-section, it was a Sunday.  The pup was removed - dead.  It was 2 days before they were sure they wouldn't lose the bitch and she had to be speyed at the same time.

costs?     Stud fee, hip score (and vet fees for sedation/anaesthetic)  eye tests, vets visits - several, whelping box and kit, out of hours emergency appointment, scans, x-rays, emergency operation and after care.  (I've probably forgotten some)

They had no change from £3000 and no pups to sell, they were very lucky to save the bitch at all and no prospect of further breeding from her to recoup costs.  Pet insurance doesn't cover breeding related problems.

They ended up buying a really nice pup of the same breed and would not entertain breeding again - it was too heartbreaking and traumatic to repeat the experience.

Anyone who breeds responsibly needs at least £3000 spare cash just in case, it' surprising how quickly things can go wrong and vets want to be sure of their money before they do the work these days.  It isn't to be undertaken lightly ;)

Sorry if you think I'm trying to put you off, but this is not the case.  It's much better to know the likely pitfalls of breeding before you get into it ;)

lol thinking about myself as a 'hobby parent!!!!' Must remember that one the next time the offspring kick off...

> just like you become a parent when you have one child

Very astute!  :-)  :-)  :-)

Hi Darren69 and welcome to the forum :) I would say register an Affix name, it is personal to you, i dont breed my dogs that often only breed when i want a puppy from the litter, and although i have shown my dogs and hope to do more showing this year, so having my own Affix is good so people can recognise my dogs, i still feel having your own kennel name is fantastic idea :)

I feel the same if your proud of what you intend to do then you want to be able to have the puppies have a surname/family name so to speak.

Oddly enough, I didn't pick up anyone as being negative ... I'm normally the first to pick up 'negatives' having been at the mercy of negative posts in the past! ;-)  I think it's the initial terminology that's caused confusion. A breeder is a breeder, whether from a much loved family pet or with a kennel and many dogs with many year's experience, the moment you mate your bitch. 
I think you only have to do a quick search for puppies for sale on the internet - anyone who hasn't really should - to see how many puppies are being farmed. Also take a look at the Many Tears site at the moment, the number of ex-breeding bitches and studs (ie rescued from puppy farms) is heart breaking, and very apparent why there are so many dogs with disease and in rescue centres if these specimens have been mass produced. I actually think it's good for people to question motives on a forum such as this especially when the initial request was not quite so clear cut as it became with further probing, so long as it's done without hostility, I didn't pick up any of that in this posting.  Unless being mentored by an experienced breeder, it's very easy to think you've got a fabulous pet dog and wouldn't it be lovely to have pups. It's also very easy for friends and family to encourage you down that route without having any knowledge to back up that encouragement.
If this is a breeding being carried out with support of health checks, temprament, 'worth' for lack of another word (on both dam and sire side), and with a nearly, if not full, order book prior to mating, and the backup of lifetime support should things go wrong in the future (some breeds that might be the next 18 years!) then I wish the person luck.

You don't need an affix but it is nice to have one, they only cost £70.00 plus a yearly fee.

>It's also very easy for friends and family to encourage you down that route without having any knowledge to back >up that encouragement.

This happened to someone I know a few years back, before the recession ;)  they have a pet staffy bitch and friends and family encouraged them to breed, promised to have one, make some money etc.  The bitch had 7 pups and friends and family decided the time wasn't right, three months on they were left with 4 pups all growing rapidly, eating and poo-ing for britain and scrapping constantly.  By then the mum and other dog had also had enough.  The 'breeders' were tearing their hair out trying to sell the pups and on top of that they had had to vaccinate them fully before they could even think of selling them.  They were left well out of pocket.

Funnily enough they haven't repeated the experience - can't think why

Can I just add one small addition to this,  please contact your local authority, because each one has a different ruling on "hobby" breeding.  In my area any more that 1 litter a year constitues a breeding licence.  And yes this has caused a huge outrage with all breeders in our area.  Myself, I might plan 2 litters one year, none the year or two after ect, and this is now effecting this.  but do check because if they decide that you are deemed to be running a business, non or profit making, you are liable for a huge fine! This will include your sister bitch if you keep her in your name or she breeds her for you!

Like some of the others above I wouldn't bother with a kennel affix - it will add nothing to the health or temperament of your pups.

As everyone else has advised - when there are so many dogs being bred it is irresponsible to breed if yours isn't of good health with all the relevant tests passed and also that you've honestly assessed the temperament.   Taking that as a given I disagree with the comment that only maybe 10% of pedigree dogs are good enough to be bred from - and that they should be good examples of the breed in terms of placing at shows.   What matters is primarily health and temperament -  in the opinion of many placing at shows is an irrelevance to both of those and in fact in some breeds placing at shows is an indicator that the dog is an exaggerated characature of what the breed once was.  The show world is primarily a beauty contest and beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Finally there are some breeds that are chronically over bred - my first breed Staffords is one - and I do think there is a case for saying if you own one of those breeds is it really responsible to breed just for sentimental reasons (I'd like a pup from my own bitch) when there are so many dogs in need and literally dying for want of a home.   Difficult to say don't breed them at all as then only the couldn't care less owners will be producing staffies - but definitely think twice or more before having a litter.  The same will go other over popular breeds of dog. 

>Taking that as a given I disagree with the comment that only maybe 10% of pedigree dogs are good enough to be bred from - and that they should be good examples of the breed in terms of placing at shows.

Shows are the easiest places to get unbiased opinions of your pride and joy. ;-)

Just wondering Derbymerc, did you have a look at the Many Tears rescue site and see the breeding bitches on there? Just the tip of a very large iceberg. I wouldn't touch any of those dogs with a barge poll as breeding stock, but someone/s thought they were good enough to breed from and there are thousands of bitches bred from in the same way, i.e no knowlege, with no understanding of matching lines together, no understanding of the breed or the breed standard. Do you think that is a good thing? Other people's opinons mean squat to be honest, the only way you know if you have good stock is for people in the dog world to say so, are they not the people who know? And you mainly find those people at shows or via contacts of show or working members and breed clubs.

It's also where serious breeders find their studs. Isn't it always better to go to a good source where the knowledge is from countless people who have been around for years?

> What matters is primarily health and temperament -&nbsp; in the opinion of many placing at shows is an irrelevance to both of those and in fact in some breeds placing at shows is an indicator that the dog is an exaggerated characature of what the breed once was.&nbsp; The show world is primarily a beauty contest and beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
>
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Dog Showing is not a beauty contest.  It was and is designed to find the dog that comes closest to the Breed Standard, and to find those that are worthy of carrying forward these desirable traits to the next generation, and any judge worth their salt would not place highly dogs of bad temperament, or dogs showing signs of ill health.   If you feel that a judge is not doing a good job then the answer is to save one's money and not enter.

  What matters is primarily health and temperament -  in the opinion of many placing at shows is an irrelevance to both of those and in fact in some breeds placing at shows is an indicator that the dog is an exaggerated characature of what the breed once was.  The show world is primarily a beauty contest and beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

But even pet buyers deserve a dog that LOOKS like the breed they have chosen, surely? People DO pick a breed on looks as well as for other reasons. I used to have 4 Cavaliers and attracted a fair amount of attention when walking them together. Without exception, EVERY single Cavalier owner I met during my walks (over many years) looked at my Cavaliers, looked at their own, sighed and said they'd wanted a dog that looked like mine. All the pet bred Cavaliers we saw were over sized (some of these owners believed mine were a miniature version!), leggy, with very long faces and looked nothing like mine that all came from show breeders. All these owners had thought it didn't matter where you bought your dog as they would all look the same even if the breeder didn't show. They were wrong.

The show world is primarily a beauty contest and beauty is in the eye of the beholder.


These words often come from people who have never stepped foot in a dog show or been anywhere near somewhere like Crufts, can I ask is this the same of you too?

> The show world is primarily a beauty contest and beauty is in the eye of the beholder.>
>
> These words often come from people who have never stepped foot in a dog show or been anywhere near somewhere like Crufts, can I ask is this the same of you too?

Can I reinforce Carrington's point too.  I, with my family, have been owners of countless mongrels from rescue homes over the years.  Delightful though every one of them was they bore no real resemblance to any actual breed.  It's sad to see that in the so called 'pet market' some pedigree dogs also bear little resemblance to their breed standard.

To the unitiated many dogs within a breed can look very similar but a dog show, show breeders, and skilled judges can train you to look at a dog very differently.  The ability to name even basic dog 'parts' is beyond many pet owners and for most of these it simply doesn't matter.  However for anyone to even consider breeding they must be sure that they have a dog that meets the breed standard and knowing your breed, inside and out, is very important.

There was a very interesting case in point on the Antiques Roadshow recently.  Two very similar vases that in isolation looked quite similar.  However, when viewed side by side, and in comparison, it was clear that one was quality, and the other an inferior copy.  Takes an expert with years of experience, feeling the weight, looking closely at the design, and getting his hands on many many examples to tell the difference.

Obviously 'dog experts' do not have definitive answers, and there is room for interpretation, but they will have assessed many dogs, understand that conformation affects movement and will have many examples from which to make comparisons.  The average pet owner cannot hope to match this knowledge so take advice.  Keep in touch with your breeder and ask their opinion too.  There will sometimes be reasons to use dogs with little or no show experience but this is more usual in rare breeds.  If you want a puppy like your existing dog - go to the same breeder or one with access to similar lines.  If you just want another puppy it's often cheaper, and certainly safer, to buy one in.

To the OP.  In my mind - and from a buyers perspective - an affix isn't worth much to me unless it brings with it the weight of history and experience from a known breeder.  If I didn't mind where my new pup came from, I'm not going to mind what it's called either.  The KC affix would do just as well.

Dog showing is a beauty contest and in many breeds their idea of beauty is at odds with what is actually healthy.  

Yes I have shown dogs and yes I do still attend some shows - I am definitely not anti dog showing though I do think it has been the downfall of certain breeds.   If any of you think breeds such as Bulldogs, Bassetts and certain Mastiffs (just for a start - the list of breeds would be fairly long) have not been exaggerated beyond what is healthy because so called knowledgeable judges put those exaggerations up then I suggest you open your eyes.   Why is there a split between show and working types in so many instances - or where there is no working line usually between modern show type and what the breed used to look like ? 

Working tests or tests of character and temperament are a completely different thing and are of much more value.  

There are also breeds that have changed very little in 50 or even 100 years,(my own is one) interestingly these tend to be numerically small breeds in the hands of knowledgeable and devoted breed enthusiasts.

The breeds you mention are not of a natural canine pattern, so their very existence is down to man wanting something unnatural, and there are consequences to that (any trait that moves away from the wolf/Jackal/Pariah dog phenotype has potential for health or welfare implications).  This does not mean the dogs are unhealthy simply because of selection for show.

As for the working show split, this only occurs in breeds when selection (primarily in the working side where looks are ignored, and in the show side where ability is not tested) for only certain of the breeds traits.

Many working bred specimens in some breeds only bear a passing/accidental resemblance to the breed standard (notice I did not say to those dogs at shows). 

Many of the show only dogs have untested and not selected for working ability, so may or may not have it to varying degrees.  If you then took these same dogs and selected fro working ability as well as show conformation you would get good looking workers.

In Scandinavia no hunting dog can gain top working trial awards unless it also looks like a good specimen of it's breed and vice versa no dog can gain it's show title unless it can prove it's working ability.  I notice that both the working and show dogs in these countries are more moderate, but very typical.

Some Gundog breeds and others are shown in too heavy condition in the ring, thereby giving the impression they are too heavy to work.

On the other hand it seems rather strange that the those taking up health testing are mainly on the show side with many working side breeders happy to bury their heads in the Sand over hereditary health issues despite lots of evidence to the contrary.

I am not arguing that moving away from a wolf type dog is necessarily unhealthy.   However I am arguing that many of the exaggerations in show types ARE unhealthy.   Even the kennel club has now been forced to take action over many breeds - and rightly so - because the people in those breeds seemed incapable of recognising that they were creating health problems and impaired quality of life in pursuit of exaggeration.   

Show points are a beauty contest and beauty is in the eye of the beholder.   If someone wants a labrador lighter than the show fashion or a dachshund with slightly longer legs and shorter back and so and so on then to my eye they are doing nothing wrong even if the dogs they breed would be placed last in every show they attend.

You do not need a Kennel name but it is nice to have to identify any future puppies as having been bred by you. I do not breed but last year applied for a Kennel name as in years to come I want my dogs to be identifiable as having been owned by me.

> even if the dogs they breed would be placed last in every show they attend.

but they wouldn't if they still met the pretty broad characteristics in breed standards.

For example in FCI countries the Dachs are longer on leg and shorter in back, but the top quality specimens, though different in style would still fit the breed standard and win.

Otherwise the top quality exhibits from overseas would not be winning at our shows.

There are quite a wide variation of styles within acceptable type.

As you said Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder and no two people will see things the same, which is why bred standards are necessarily broad.

Standards are not to blame, for any problems, it is wrong interpretation or misunderstanding of the intention in a standard.  Language and it's usage has a habit of changing over time.

Fro example what was meant by massive 100 years ago is not what was interpreted as such in more recent times.

My own breeds standard used to ask for straight in stifle and hocks.  This originally was most likely because the breeds around used for hunting were hounds and Gundogs which are much more angulated than the moderate angulation needed in our breed.  The standard was changed when ti was realised breeders were going for too straight, and definite bend at stifle and hock put in to make it clear.

Yes many breeds have changed and developed a lot in the last 100 years or so, but a lot of improvement has generally occurred.  I look at old photos and Pathe film footage and some breeds were structurally very unsound, lots of bowed legs cow hocks, far more than we see these day.  Many of these are to do with improved husbandry and feeding.

As for breeds with exaggerated conformation as part of what they are, well I will leave to those who have a liking for such the dichotomy of balancing acceptable health and welfare with their desire for flat faces, tiny/giant size, short legs etc, as it is very difficult if their very concept goes against what is most workable in nature, but that is not the majority of breeds.

>There are also breeds that have changed very little in 50 or even 100 years,(my own is one) interestingly these >tend to be numerically small breeds in the hands of knowledgeable and devoted breed enthusiasts.

Hear, hear!    Looking at photographs and paintings of my own breed it has changed little in that time.  Even presentation has changed little - apart from a few exhibitors who like to exaggerate their trimming ;)

>On the other hand it seems rather strange that the those taking up health testing are mainly on the show side >with many working side breeders happy to bury their heads in the Sand over hereditary health issues despite >lots of evidence to the contrary.

Those who show or show and work have been far more interested in developing and using health tests - at huge expense.  Dna test development especially, is complicated and enormously expensive as are the tests to enable its development - with no guarantee that the eventual test will be perfected within the lifetimes of those who paid heavily to assist its development.

Well I admit I do not follow dachshund showing closely but they certainly do put up dogs with a structure that makes them prone to certain medical conditions and would make them incapable of doing the job they were developed for.   If they accept a longer legged shorter backed dog too then I applaud that - but the fact is there are many people breeding and judging in that breed who deem the correct type to be something that is basically unsound.   The same goes for many other breeds - maybe not a majority but a significant minority.   

And if I can go back to the comment that someone made that only 10% of dogs within a breed are worth breeding - isn't that somewhat dangerous if we want to preserve a diverse gene pool ?  Just to make it clear - I am not saying we need more litters bred - but those litters that are bred should not come from too narrow a pool of dogs especially when the criteria is show success which is largely (OK I admit not entirely) a beauty contest.