I have been thinking about getting my youngest bitch spayed as i don't think she is good enough to breed from, Her health tests are fine and she has a lovely temprament and has a good pedigree but  she has not done much in the showring, so I don't show her now.
I said this to her breeder and she was against it as she thinks I should breed her. She said she would make a good brood bitch as she has good lines behind her.
I have come across this many times in different breeds with often top breeders breeding from what seem to me to be average  and even pet quality bitches saying that they are good brood bitches.
Just wondering what peoples views were on breeding from  a less than top quality bitch? I know some of these bitches have produced good pups to good stud dogs but surely there is a good chance that the pups could inherit their mums faults too and then you might end up with a litter of very average pups?

but surely there is a good chance that the pups could inherit their mums faults too and then you might end up with a litter of very average pups?
Absolutely.  Of course it occassionally happens that a less than average bitch will produce a quality puppy but then the next generation will produced another mixed bag.  It's rare to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. :(

I was told to use a plain bitch when I started in my breed and bred for 3 generations, keeping the best bitch each time, mating her to a quality compatible dog, hoping to correct her faults.  After 6 years I was producing nice males but still no better bitches and so I started again and bought in a quality bitch.  She is behind everything with my affix today and I wish I hadn't wasted 6 years producing healthy, good temperament but pet quality puppies..  To me you need a strong bitch line to consistantly produce quality dogs.  Maybe others have different experience.

I have also to agree with Westcoast - to breed quality puppies in most cases you need a quality bitch as a brood bitch that also has good health test results.  The pedigree is important, but if the bitch does not have any of the desirable features of a breed, it really matters very little how good the pedigree.

From our experience having owned and a popular stud, every time he went to a less than quality bitch the resulting litter was not as good as either parent, although he did tend to improve on the bitch in certain areas eye colour and shape and he improved feet and gave substance to bitches that were lacking in bone.  But his best pups came from the quality bitches with good dogs/bitches behind them - a number of Champions were produced worldwide.

You can improve on a plain bitch at each generation, but it takes a long time and a lot of hard work and delving deep into pedigrees.

Although there are those who say that you need as many bitches to be used as possible to increase genetic diversity. 

Thre will never be an easy answer.

I know of someone who mated a very ordinary bitch with a poor head to the top stud and produced a champion dog........

Almost everyone who used that dog got his mothers head....... :-(

Depends whether you are thinking short term or long.

I have also been told by few very experienced breeders that the strength of a kennel lies in strong bitch lines...
Having spent loads of time going through pedigrees/kennels etc It often is a case there is generation after generation of nice bitches in the background of breeders producing quality stock :)

I know of many Top kennels who have brood bitches. You never see them in the show ring but they produce champions!!

As long as the stud compliments her faults and is producing sound puppies then you have a fair enough chance of nice puppies. As long as your bitch doesnt have any severe faults then I dont see why not.

4 years ago I bred from an average bitch (won few best puppys but that was it). Put her to a stud who complimented her............. sent 2 pups abroad and both are now champions!!

There was something in one of the dog papers over a year ago about top kennels who had brood bitches that would never be shown but they produced Champion pups

> but surely there is a good chance that the pups could inherit their mums faults too and then you might end up with a litter of very average pups?

If your bitch is one of those plain no major faults but nothing outstanding, then that is the kind if she comes from good lines that can be a great producer, and to the correct outstanding stud should produce pups that at the very least have no major faults, but also really good ones that inherit her ancestors great qualities and those of the chosen stud.

I think breeding is more like cooking, or wine blending.  The ingredients need to be good to start with, but the outstanding dish is down to their blending.

A lot in your case would depend on how large a gene pool your breed has, are there exactly or very similarly bred bitches already being bred from, so her being removed will have little impact.

yes she is very  nice just nothing special, no particularly major faults.  I had thought about breeding from her as she is a nice sound character  but   she never does much in the showring. Not a minority  breed so as you say probably not a  great  loss if i don't breed from her

The best dogs I have bred have been from bitches which were just not quite show quality, but very nicely bred. The trick is to identify the pre-potent lines in the pedigree and line breed to them. Choose a stud dog whose tail female line has consistently turned up good brood bitches over the generations.

> I said this to her breeder and she was against it as she thinks I should breed her. She said she would make a good brood bitch as she has good lines behind her.
>

Its understanding whats in the pedigree and also those generations you don't see on the sheet either.   You can put lots of 'top' lines together with blatant disregard for what you are trying to achieve from it.  I see it time & time again in my breed, bitches that are not great conformation-wise but having good health results and being mated to dogs with no regard as to what they are trying to gain from such a mating but the dog has 'top' lines or has won such & such....

My first LM bitch was quite workmanlike, just over the height standard, never had a great coat until later in life.  BUT she has a lovely neck, shoulders, well sprung rib & good front.  Her dam was a Sh.Ch. as was her grand-dam.    My bitch had one litter and produced a Sh.Ch. daughter & RCC daughter - a good strong bitch line.   In turn the RCC winning bitch has produced 2 Sh.Ch. daughters & 2 RCC sons.

In my experience, even with great lines behind your girl, her puppies may well inherit her faults.  Lets face it, many of us look like our parents and features we don't like about ourselves can often be seen in our mothers or fathers LOL

We have a dog that is a champion and my beloved pet from our first litter but we have never use him over our girls as he has faults that we do not want to perpetuate.  We don't like his shoulders and he is straight/high in the rear.  Apart from that he is a beautiful dog to look at and "Joe public" wouldn't have a clue or care for that matter.  Good sound conformation is vital and we all want to keep our breeds looking as they should.  Even minor faults such as ear set can ruin the "look" of our dogs.