This is really a hypothetical question. I have two bitches, mother and daughter. If I was to breed again from the mother, how would their relationship be affected? They live in the house together at present.
Do you think the daughter would be very jealous and how would she react to the new puppies. Would the mother change her relationship towards her current daughter?
I am very unlikely to breed again from the mother, but would be interested to hear how this relationship has worked with others who have bred under these circumstances.
Lorna

Lorna, in my experience it would make no difference at all in the long run, though mother would protect the pups from daughter when they were small, just as she'd do with any other dog.

I agree 100% with Sharon.

Hi Lorna,

I have a mother / daughter situation. The mother is 3 and daughter is 18months, they currently both have litters and I have had no problems with either of them. mother visits the daughters litter and visa versa, it hasn't effercted the relationship at all but I think it depends on the temprement of the dog....these were only introduced to each others litters at 4 weeks old, the mother / daughter went out alone just after litters were born and there were no problems either, I do think however, that there would have been problems if they went to each others litters earlier.

Donna

I'm sorry Donna as I wouldn't normally go off on a tangent on a thread but do you not think 18 months is rather young to have had a bitch nursing a litter? Judging by dates, she would have been 15 months when she was mated, my feelings are that is way too young for any breed. I'm sorry if this offends anyone but dogs need their youth too.

Lily she obviously doesn't think this is too young since if the mother is 3 and the Daughter is 18 months old- the Mother must have had the Daughter at 18 months too:o I think it's too young and why bother anyway if the Mothers having a litter anyway?

Stacey x x x

I agree Kash

Donna
Why continually mate bitches so young? Why have 2 litters together?
Nicky

Easy on folks :). It may be a small breed and I can think of legitimate reasons for having two litters at the same time.

I think she has Pekes :)

They are a small breed - I was actually advised by my breeder to mate them at a year old but thought it was a little young, yes it may seem young and to those of you who are insinuating that I breed continuously - I don't - I have 2 litters a year (I have 5 bitches), my one girl was 3 month late in season , we had planned the 2 girls to have litters this year and it is her last litter - that is why the 2 litters are close 1 litter came a 5 days too early and the other was late.
Before there are any comments on money making I would like to advise you that I don't make money, as any breeder will tell you, and that all my dogs are dearly loved and very well looked after, my home is theirs and I have received many praises for my puppies temprements and well-being. Most of these litters have been sold by recomendation from others and comments like those posted here are out of order - why do people always judge others before knowing the facts ? I could understand it if I was breeding from very young and lots of litters a year........ I have heard stories about bitchiness in the show ring but I was just trying to share my experiences, not looking for any uncalled for comments.

Donna

With my oldest bitch I had a second litter when her daughter was a year or so old. the young bitch played baby sitter for the pups, watching her Mum, to make sure she didn't disaprove.

This in fact is quite natural, as the daughters from earlier litters help to bring up their younger brothers and sisters in wild canid packs, and don't have their own pups.

Mums will of course be protective of their pups, and may not brook any interference until they are mobile.

Brainless that's normal- the Mum had her 2nd litter and the older Daughter played babysitter- the way round that poster has put it- both the Mum and Daughter have a litter each- and the Daughter's only 18mth old.

Stacey x x x

Hi everyone
I thought it was acceptable to breed from small breeds at a younger age because of how they mature quicker i.e. toys etc.Isn`t it something to do with the pelvic girdle?What does everyone think?Can`t remember where I got the information so can`t back it with fact only to say I do know some top breeders who do breed their (small breeds) bitches at this age.
Carole

Actually depending on the breed it might be advised to breed before 2 for the first time. For Pugs at least it is the case (I have no idea for other breeds but probably Pekes are the same). Although it might not be politically correct, it's much easier on the bitch as her bones are hopefully still "soft". I personnally would not mate a bitch before 15 months old, but I would do it that early if she is physically and emotionnally mature enough. For instance my first litter was advised by my mentor and given the show schedule and her already nicely matured body she was bred at 17 months. I will refuse a bitch for my stud if she is over 3 and has never whelped before.

It surely should depend on the breed concerned.Personally I don`t think `political correctness ` should come into it .the health and welfare of the bitch should be the overiding issue.
Carole

Been banging on about that for a while :(.

Kash, the original poster is asking about what the relationship will be between mother and daughter if a second litter was to be taken from Mum.

The lady with two litters was a respondent. Unless it is a toy breed, I would agree, 18 months is needlessly young, especially to do the same w2ith both.

Ok, I think I'm right in assuming that toy breeds are some of the most long lived dog breeds going? So, to mate at 15/18 months is equivalent to a girl just into mid teens having a baby. Larger breeds on the other hand live 8-10 (?)years but we wait until around 3 for a litter, nearing middle age for a large breed...surely then, it should be mate young for the large breeds and later for the toys?????????

After reading all the postings, yes, I do breed pekes, and after being shot down by alot of you - I would like to say in my defence that besides being advised by my breeder to breed at this age, my vet also agreed that it was correct to do this. The two girls passed all their medical checks - they are big, strong and very healthy girls and I wouldn't do anything I though would change their health / temprement / whatever in any way.

I didn't just go out and buy two dogs or more and start mating them, i researched the breed, took advice, researched colours and done alot of reading.

I have had nothing but good reports from my puppies new owners, I still stay in contact with every person who has purchased a puppy from me (about 25 so far) and have made alot of good friends.

I always have my girls neutered at 5 years of age and I am a responsible breeder. The coments made on this board hurt but many of you may not understand that, this is why I always think whether or not to offer any advice / comments. Well, i have certainly learned my lesson.

Donna

Hi Donna I think the problem here is lack of information bout yourself when you post first . . It happens to most new posters. then they realise they gave the wrong impression and all is sorted .
So come on give it another try .
I know from experience also that the toy breeds are better having the pups young . They do mature faster then the larger dogs and it is not advisable to have five yr old pekes in whelp .Just explain .After all thats what it is all about learning from each other.
Best wishes Mari

Donna has posted on the board before and discussed her dogs in depth. It's why I'm surprised that quite a few people jumped all over her on here. :( It was rather uncalled for. :( :(
All one has to do is click on the person's name, hit "Posts" and read some of the old threads to see if there's been other explanations before jumping to assumptions.

As for smaller breeds needing more time and reaching a venerable 3 or so years old...I don't think so. The min schnauzers, and other small breed bitches that I've known have started their first heat cycle around 4-6 months old. By 15 months, these smaller dogs are definitely much more mentally mature than dogs that outweigh them by 20+ pounds. They're basically adults. They don't have the growth in body, so their brains are able to settle down quicker into adulthood -- less 'raging growth hormones' ..imo. :)

I've also known these small breeds to become unpredictable in their cycles by around age 4-5. Remember, females are born with their eggs...they are not manufactured like sperm is. Yes, they do live longer, but I tend to think that their bodies have a harder time giving birth without the flexibility of youth. The proportion of infant size to adult bitch is much greater than in a large breed. And although these smaller breeds tend to carry less puppies, two or 3 puppies could take all of a bitches' strength to whelp. It also is a lot of pressure on some of the longer back breeds to carry these puppies. Pekes and dachs are prone to spinal injuries....and pregancy does not help these.

In the end, which age is best to breed from? Personally, I'd tend to rely on someone who has been doing this for some time with a particular breed than try to blanket all possible situations with one single answer.
jmho,
toodles

I just thought I would chip in with my agreement in mating small breeds for the first time earlier than some people would like to hear about. Sorry to repeat myself as I said this on another thread fairly recently - but - After years of breeding from bitches at their second season (as long as they dont whelp before 17-18 months old) I NEVER had any whelping probs for over 10 years with that first litter or with their subsequent whelpings. After it became PC to wait til the 3rd or 4th season I fell into line with this, to avoid being thought of as irresponsible, and in last last 3 or 4 years 50% of my litters have been C sections. My very well respected vet advised me to go back to mating at the second season. So now I will go back to my old practise. It rather depends on whether we are more concerned with what other people think - who have no experience of our individual breeds - or the welfare of our bitches.

When my girls have puppies they are kept seperate from the others and if I ever have 2 litters at once the mums do not have access to the other litter, though they can see each other. I think my bitches prefer to know they will be undisturbed by other dogs when they have a litter, regardless of how friendly they are at other times. When they hear my other dogs outside the whelping room door, they jump up and bark/growl a warning, they dont want other dogs near their babies.
Also to defend those that have 2 litters at once - bitches living together often fall into "sync" and many will all come into season close together. If one comes in and another is anywhere near coming in to season, I have found they will come into sason up to 6 weeks earlier than expected.
If you are looking for a puppy to show you dont want them born, say in May/June - they will be ready to start showing in Nov/Dec and out of puppy classes by late spring - more or less completely missing the show season. My "juniors" are not usually ready to show again til 15/16 months, and I do love showing puppies. We have very few Open shows between November and March round here, and there are very few CH shows either and if you are breeding for a puppy to show and have 2 bitches in season in Sept/Oct then why not let them have their puppies then and the breeder has more to choose from. Well I've dug my hole - I'll jump into it now wait for the backlash!! :-)

Hi Westie Lover,
After your very succinct explanation there shouldn`t be any backlash,experience and in depth knowledge of your breed speaks volumes and as the previous poster pointed out, breeds should be viewed differently when it comes to breeding.You can`t possibly apply the same rule of thumb to a Dachshund
as you do to an Irish Wolfhound.
I to have come to the conclusion that if you intend breeding that it is better all round for the bitch if you mate her as soon as she is physically and mentally mature and even this varies from bitch to bitch.Two years plus seems the general consensus if you read breed club guide lines.(Large Breeds)
Every time for differing reasons that I have bred from a bitch of 3.1/2 + I have had problems with secondry
inertia ending up having to have a C Section.Now if I intend to breed a bitch it is done sooner than later and if this is not convenient and IMO she passes the age I think is too old for a first litter I do not breed from her.I don`t go looking for problems in my hobby!
I love my girls and do what is the best for them.

It is easy to jump to conlusions by just reading a few paragraphs that is posted,and when you are newish to the forum no one really knows what you are about.
From what I have just written you could assume that I am always breeding which is not the case.I have had this particular breed for 20 years yet there are
people in my breed now who have bred the same number of pups in 7/8 years.
I`m glad I didn`t reply late last night because I think
Westie Lover `s contribution is better than I could have done .
Regards Carole

Agree with everything you say Carole. We need to be careful about jumping on people without knowing the facts because even unjustified mud can stick.

My impression about problems with 'late' first litters is the same as yours. Deerhounds & wolfhounds usually have seasons 9 - 12 and even as much as 15 months apart so you don't get many chances at the the optimal time. As long as the bitch is well developed physically and mentally mature I'd rather take a first litter a little bit early than leave it until the bitch is entering what is middle age for a giant breed.

I would just like to thank you all for speaking up in my defence...I feel better now after knowing that some of you have or have had the same situation as myself....

Thanks again
Donna

I am posting a public apology, but everyone is entitled to their opinions. I'm sorry Donna if I offended you.

Breeding for me comes way behind showing..I have bred from a bitch of 5, first litter, no problems, 14 pups (9 live), her second litter at aged 7. I have bred just 3 litters in 15 years of owning my breed, so I'm not a novice, the age I took a first litter from a bitch was 3 & a half. I only breed when I have room to keep something and to continue my line...that is it.

Thank you for the apology...I appreciate it - and yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion and personal reasons for breeding / showing...that is what makes us all different, with something in common....our love for our dogs

Donna

Hi Donna,
I would just like to say that i used to breed & exhibit dogs up until a few years ago & i had some small breeds mini schnauzers & w/h fox terriers & we would always breed on their 2nd or 3rd season depending on how mature the bitch was. If she looked mature enough & capable of coping with a litter then we would mate on the 2nd season usually 14 months old (so having 1st litter at 16-17month) but if they weren't then we'd leave them until 18 months for their 1st mating. I think it is upto the individual dog some mature much quicker than others and if you think your bitch is old enough to breed from at 15 months & have a litter at 18months then that is completely the owners decision. And also if bitchs weren't supposed to be mated before 18 months old like some posters here are complaining about then why doesn't the kennel club up the minimum breeding age from 12months to 18 months?
At least you know what you are doing with the breed & you have orders for the puppies, YOU ARE A RESPONSIBLE BREEDER!:)
Kind regards
Shonagh.

Hi Donna
I have just come back to the forum today and read through this thread.
I don't know if you took my 2 Q's as insulting or offensive but if you did I apologize. :)
I have Wolfhounds and therefore I wouldn't consider a first mating until the bitch was 2 yrs +, however, I also have a small Black & Tan Terrier (10 inches at the shoulder) and despite the fact that she is small I still wouldn't consider mating her until she was 2 yrs +. Just my VHO. It doesn't mean I am right, it doesn't mean you are wrong, just personal choice. :)
Nicky

Hi Eog,
I don't know about others, but I usually hit the persons name and look for their breeds in their profile!

The logic soesn't work that way. It is the level of physical maturity that has ben reached.

Large breeds don't reach maturity for much longer, even though they burn out/age faster!

Also the relative size of toy/small breed pups is larger in relation to adul;t size, than it is in the large breeds.

An 8 pound yorkie giving birth to a 4 ounce puppy is more than an Elkhound bitch (44lb) giving birth to a 12 ounce pup.

The best time for a first litter is once an animal has reached neatrly full maturity. In my breed they aren't fully mature until Three or four years old, both physicaly and mentally, so Two is set by our breed clubs as a minimum age, but they also advise not to breed a first litter over five years old.