rang kc today to ask somthing and anyway found out that the stud dog can be younger than 12months old to reg a litter, its only the dam that has to be 12months at mating i was quite shocked!

I know its so wrong! I know of a boy of just 8 months was used (Toy breed) I would never do this!

i know someone who used their dog at 9 months, twice!

Same here........... I know a few people who use dogs under a year old.

So wrong!!

I was asked by 3 different people if they could use my dog before he turned 1 (before he was health tested!!). I said no and have continued saying no, he is now 2 and passed all health tests but tough.............. they should have waited!! LOL!

yes danielle thats why i was so shocked ,no health tests are done before 1 :(

People do it but it's deffinately not something I would do.
I personally think both parties should be 2 years or more before sireing/having a litter

my boy is 20 months old and i couldn't imagine using him...he is such a big baby..think he will mature at around 4-5 years! :-)
paula

In general terms this shouldn't happen because most health tests like Hip Scoring cannot be done until after 2 month of age, but then very few toy breeds appear to hip score, and if there are no other health issues that can be tested for there is nothing to stop anyone using a dog as son as he is willing and able, though why anyone would use a dog until he had matured enough to see his quality, rather than potential?

> there is nothing to stop anyone using a dog as son as he is willing and able, though why anyone would use a dog until he had matured enough to see his quality, rather than potential?

Brainless is right here.  I have toy breeds, and they are often sexually mature at 6 months - I see plenty of people advertising the same breeds for stud under a year old. 

Apart from the fact that an inexperienced dog is likely to be put off by a pushy, bossy bitch, you really can't see the quality with my breeds until thay are nearer 2 years old.  I would rather wait than make a mistake.  My 5 year old stud boy is experienced enough to walk away if the bitch doesn't smell ready. 

He is also handy in as much as he tells me when my own girls are ready.  He beats blood testing!  But I do feel sorry for him when he tells me a girl is ready, and I get on the phone to the stud dog owner that I'm using!! 
:-(  Poor lad!

Surely it's hard to judge a dogs true temperament until they have been through adolesence? I've known perfectly adorable youngsters who never loose that little bit of meanness they can develop at 18 months :(

I have never had mean adolescents, pushy ambitious, and naughty, but never mean. and I would be very worried if I couldn't discern temperament before that age.

I have twice used males that were young the first was the male whose bloodlines I had specially chosen and imported with friends, he was first used at 14 months after his Hop results were through, but I used him at 20 months.

The youngest male I have used was one I bred myself, and he was only 17 months old when he mated my bitch his temperament remains the same as before he was used.

Maybe 'meanness' was the wrong choice of word but I have seen adolescents who will get barky and a little agressive at this age. Most grow out of it (or maybe their training makes the difference?) but some get worse.

With experienced and trustworthy breeders, like yourself Brainless, I'd trust you to deeply research bloodlines and know what to expect but you know not all breeders are the same :(

> With experienced and trustworthy breeders, like yourself Brainless, I'd trust you to deeply research bloodlines and know what to expect but you know not all breeders are the same :-(

That is why hard and fast rules cannot be made, whether it be age of use, spacing of litters, hip scores etc. 

A breeder should be making reasoned and ethical decisions when breeding.  Age of breeding animals is a minor decision compared to most everything else.

My own policy that makes sense to me is if I feel the need to use a young or untried (one whose offspring I cannot evaluate) animal in my breeding program, then it behoves me to know as much as possible about the half of the pedigree I know well and know what the bitch has produced before has been sound.  So I prefer to use a tried and tested mature male on a young bitch, and if I want to use a young male then I would use him on a bitch that had proven herself.

What you refer to as temperament is simply adolescence, and in most species this stage can be a pain.  Loosely I would say how an animal behaves is down to training/experience, and I would say how it reacts is down to inheritance. 

Faced with a novice or soft owner with an arsy adolescent I would be looking at the temperament of the parents of the dog, and also assessing the youngster in different situations.  For example a young male strutting up to other males at a show or even being a bit aggressive, may behave like this if he is out of his usual comfort zone. 

I have known many novice exhibitors quite shocked that their male is being male aggressive(I mean posturing eyeballing) at shows when he is perfectly good with males at home or in the park.  The sheer number of other males and bitches at a show and the resulting overkill of pheromones excitement can tip and inexperienced animal over the edge.

I know someone you used a seven month puppy (hound group).  Then wondered why he wouldn't show.  Poor little thing was probably totally confused.

I know it's all wrong, as said no hips/elbows have been scored by this age, in Germany the stud dog must be at least 2 years old, they have the right idea.

Loosely I would say how an animal behaves is down to training/experience, and I would say how it reacts is down to inheritance. 


I held the same view until I got my first GD. She was a lovely pup but became very aggressive after another dog attacked her while she was an adolescent. Training, behavourist and even leaving her with an experienced GD breeder did nothing to help. Turns out that their was some history of aggression in her line - in fact with quite a few dogs from her kennel. I hadn't done enough research and only found out afterwards by talking on here (many moons ago) and at shows when looking for another GD. :(

I would find it unusual to not see any signs of inherited aggressive behaviour until after adolescence, unless by aggression you mean an assertive domineering character, which of course would not show up in full until maturity but would certainly be evident even in the nest while watching interactions with siblings., and the pup would be showing ambitious tendencies.

What breed is a GD?

Inherited behaviour can be modified and even masked by training to some extent, but as you have found the true characteristics will become apparent.

On the other hand if the characteristics are there in the first place, but no training or socialisation are given until late, it is still possible to bring those traits out.

Our case with our dog who was in Quarantine from 9 1/2 weeks of age until 9 months.

His care and socialisation until then would have been limited to what was appropriate for a 9 week old puppy.

In quarantine he had no physical contact with other canines, and he couldn't even see any until he was six months old and could peep over the wall, though he could certainly hear them, and join in with the barking!

On a daily basis he saw the kennel staff (all female) and the vet (male) on only a few occasions (vaccinations health checks).  I visited 3 times a week, and the lady who he went to live with once a week.

He came out of quarantine at 9 1/2 months old and went to a show 3 days later, a very large busy Open show with benching and trade stands left over from a Group championship show the next day.

He was able to show, and by the third class had the hang of it (I had lead trained him up and down his 20 foot run), happy to be examined by both male and female strangers, and loved everyone (human, and most surprisingly for an adolescent unsocialised male pup, canine) and everything. 

Now everything we are told about socialisation is that they must experience as much of everything by 16 weeks as possible, or you won't have a well balanced confident adult.  Yet this shows that this boys inherited character was solid and resilient enough to come through without the ideal upbringing.

The only lasting negatives with him were that his first Car journey after quarantine was long and twisty and to this day he doesn't enjoy the car, digs his heels in when going in, and then settles in a corner with a sigh and puts up with it.  Also even for an Elkhound eh is barky, not having much else better to do for 6 months.

He was mentally more like a 9 week old pup when he came out of quarantine, and of course not house trained, so his puddles were lakes ;)

She was a Great Dane. Good with family, strangers, other dogs in and out of the house. Then she started to pull on the lead, become growly when strangers walked towards us in the park and her recall went out the window. I was thinking 'stroppy teenager'. She was then attacked while on lead by a german shepard. After that nothing we did could resocialise her and she became impossible to control.

We tried training classes but were asked to leave because all she wanted to do was fight. I tried a behaviourist who worked one on one to try and calm her but even he said he had never seen such a nasty dog unless they had been trained to act that way. The vet thought maybe she'd had a small stroke but couldn't be sure. Then on here asking for help someone sent me a pm asking what kennel she was from. When I told them they said that they had heard the same story in the show ring - pups doing well until they got over a year then picking fights for no reason at all.

I ended up rehoming her to a lady who used to breed them and now lived without other dogs in the middle of the countryside. I did try talking to her breeder but was told that she couldn't take back an agressive dog and it was obviously my fault and therefore my problem!

Sorry to have hijacked the thread a bit but it really does highlight the need to do more research. Though as a first time owner (not of dogs but the breed) it's hard to know what or who to ask or trust.