This is something I have been thinking about lately, selecting males for my girls.
I have gone for older males for few reasons...

In my breed we have few genetic illnesses that usually manifest themselves around 3-5 years of age (immune, nervous system & heart related). None of these have DNA tests yet and unfortunately people are keeping quiet about them which does not help the situation.

I'm not sure what the average age of stud males in UK is but in my country of origin (we like statistics :)) for my breed it is currently 3 years 10 months. To me this is very low number as an average for a giant breed that is not even fully mature before 4 years of age (not even considering the health side of things).
The age average in bitches is actually higher than in males, which to me tells about the trend to use young males when with the girls there is actually more of a limitation on how old they can be when having their last litter! If a bitch is happily mated at 6 years of age, why are not so many males used at the same age when the burden for males body is nothing compared to what bitch goes through.
I see no harm if occasional young male has been used as there can be good reasons for this too e.g. lines of the male-age of the bitch but if it becomes a norm, surely this can take the breed down and longevity & fertility of the breed could lessen?

Why is it people seem to prefer using young dogs? Do they forget older males or are the chances of getting your bitch mated with an older male so much smaller it outweighs the benefits of waiting to see how the male/siblings mature?
Sperm counts can go down when dogs get older but is it normal if a male is not able to reproduce after lets say 6 years of age?
Is there any real benefits in using a youngster? I'm not talking about waiting for male to be ancient before using them but surely ideally they should be mature physically and mentally.
 
I honestly can not see many benefits in rush to use young males but maybe I am being ignorant of some points.
I do have loads to learn, which is why I'm asking these questions from those who have been around for longer :)

I would also be interested to hear if in some breeds it is normal not to lift endorsements until the male is certain age (Breeds like cavaliers come to mind?)?
As this is what I'm seriously thinking of doing to allow the dogs to mature and allow time for health screening for most of the litter before individuals are bred(if any puppy owner would be interested in breeding side of things and puppies turned out as hoped)

>Why is it people seem to prefer using young dogs? Do they forget older males or are the chances of getting your bitch mated with an older male so much smaller it outweighs the benefits of waiting to see how the male/siblings mature?

Sperm counts can go down when dogs get older but is it normal if a male is not able to reproduce after lets say 6 years of age?
Is there any real benefits in using a youngster? I'm not talking about waiting for male to be ancient before using them but surely ideally they should be mature physically and mentally.

i cant say for sure regarding dogs, but i have studied extensively into human genetics. basically the older the human is, the more likely that genetic mutations occur within the gametes, and after a certain age, with women its about 35 the chances of mutations increase ten fold, which is why downs syndrome babies are often the from older mothers. gametes are produced by a process called meiosis, so that the genetic material of the daughter cells are half of that of the original cells, when the chromosomes line up before the cell splits, occasionally they do not line up correctly and in stead of them splitting down the middle, one chromosome can be carried over to the daughter cell meaning it has one more chromosome than the "matching" cell that was produced at the same time, so when the sperm fertilizes the mutated egg, there are more chromosomes present as they match up in pairs, so one pair also has an extra one.

this is the same principle with sperm cells, although in humans, there is no phenotype for males with mutated gametes, so it GENERALLY goes undetected. however with dogs, if such a thing should occur, the bitch would probably absorb the foetus that had been effected. therefore in this instance a lot of males would not be used as they would be considered infertile, or creating small litters due to the bitch correctly absorbing the "weaker" pups. where the bitch could be mated to another dog and produce a healthy, large litter.

like i said, i cannot be sure of the effects regarding dogs, as my studies have only involved human genes, but i would think that it would apply to anything involving sexual reproduction, where gametes are formed by meiosis.

also like you mentioned, sperm count and sperm mobility decreases with age, so this would also be a factor.

Thanks :) something I had not really thought about.
I bet you are right, probably something that has not been studied much in dogs...

I believe the sire of my oldest dog was 12 at the time :-O , I don't know what people think about that but he is a lovely dog and I'm very pleased to say so is his son!

I do still believe the benefits of using an older stud and having more info on health status outweigh the possible problems...
But obviously using an older dog will get you absolutely nowhere if you can't get puppies as an outcome :)

There is also the issue of a male not having a clue if you wait to long to use him. 

In my breed it is often said that ideally a dog should be used at around a year old, and then he will remember for next time even if not used for several years.

We have had a number of males fail to ever mate a bitch when tried for the first time as older dogs.  Males in my breed in the UK do not get many opportunities to be sires.

The last male I used a top winning champion only sired his second litter at 6 years of age, having sired his first more than 3 years earlier.

I tried a veteran dog on two of my bitches, but he really was not efficient and only to mate my girls as they went over and pups resulted.  As said before once a dog starts missing to bitches people become reluctant to try him, as for the bitch owner it means having to wait 6 months or more to try again, and many probably feel a virile young male a better bet.

Also if the gene pool is small people don't want to use the same dogs over and over so will jump at the chance of using a new dog.

In my case I have often found the mature dogs were too closely related to my bitches, so needed to use new or younger blood that was a generation or so removed.

Sorry to go off topic a bit but I inherited a 16 year old toy breed last year and he is still as keen as mustard whenever a bitch comes in season. Obviously I would not use him but he is keener earlier  than my own boys, who only show interest when a bitch is ready. Is this usual?

Just to add, there are plenty of known phenotypes/mutations associated with increased paternal age in humans, including Down syndrome which can originate from the male gametes... it's not just restricted to maternal age. 

That being said two of my dogs had pretty old dads, and they're just fine :-D

Noora I think its really hard in our breed given how long they take to mature.  Personally I looked at older dogs but for one reason or another none were suitable.  I originally picked a slightly older male who had never been but I didnt even get a mating.  I then opted for a 3yo proven stud.  Slightly younger than I'd have liked as I dont feel males in our breed fully mature until about 4yo but didnt really want to miss another chance again for having her first litter and could have been my only chance at getting those lines.
I think your right about a lot of problems being hidden in our breed and unfortunately some people dont see whats wrong with breeding from siblings, offspring etc of affected dogs and presume because their dog is healthy that they wont produce these problems!!! It annoys me when I see some of the dogs/bitches being bred from when I know of the health problems they have or whats behind them, it's the poor puppy owners I feel for, having myself had two pups with major hereditary health problems one of our breed that died as a pup I know exactly how it feels.
Good luck in looking for your stud, glad to see some people do their homework.

i have to say i've really enjoyed this thread.... good to see people's ideas.... good post :-)

I was just wondering if after a certain age it is common for a male dogs fertility to go into decline, and if so what might that age be? I appreciate this could be like asking how long is a piece of string and probably differs from breed to breed and dog to dog..... but generally speaking is it not unusual for a dog to miss to bitches more frequently from say the age of 6 or more ?
Thanks in advance.

I think it may depend on how often the dog gets used.  There is probably some truth to the saying use it or loose it. 

Most males in my breed have limited opportunities to mate a bitch and certainly it would seem that if a male hasn't had a bitch for a couple of year then after 9 year sold fertility seems to go down with small litters or bitches missing, and bitch owners then unwilling to take a chance. 

Of course there are dogs that have mated (planned or unplanned )until 12 years of age.  I don't think you would get many stud owners deliberately using their dogs past 10 or 11 as they would worry about their dogs health ;)

A dog I bred was tried at age 3 with my Jozi, who led him a merry dance and we never got a mating.

At 6 1/2 he had a Young maiden bitch and over the next 18 months 4 others and never missed one with average size litters.

I would love to have used him on one of my youngest but my friend has not had him DNA tested (testonly available wicne Oct 08) and he is 11 now.

Thanks for that, I hadn't considered the possibility of how often a dog is used at stud potentially having an impact on his fertility.

Psst, The owners of some older males of my acquaintance have told me that the testicles tend to reduce in size in their older males when they haven't been use for ages, whether this is lack of use or ageing is hard to know?

Maybe those with similar age older entire males where one is used at stud and another that isn't can tell us?

I have been reading this with interest.

>Psst, The owners of some older males of my acquaintance have told me that the testicles tend to reduce in size in their older males when they haven't been use for ages, whether this is lack of use or ageing is hard to know?

I tried to use my male for the first time in November 2008 (aged 6 1/2 years) The bitch didn't take. I tried again next season. She didn't take again. So I took him to a fertility specialist. He is, unfortunately, infertile. Not a tadpole could be seen :-( I had a long talk with the specialist whilst I was there (getting my moneys worth ;-) ) He stated that the testicles do go smaller with age, but didn't mention whether it was because a male hadn't been used or not. I took it that all males got smaller.

> I tried to use my male for the first time in November 2008 (aged 6 1/2 years) The bitch didn't take. I tried again next season. She didn't take again. So I took him to a fertility specialist. He is, unfortunately, infertile.

Now this is probably the main reason people prefer to use younger males.  From a bitch owners point of vie it isn't as if you just try next month, it could be 6 to 12 months, and if a bitch misses again even longer.

Now most good breeders don't rush to mate their bitches as young as is decently possible, and don't like to leave a first litter too late either, so time becomes an issue.

In the UK very few vets will offer routine fertility testing for males (mind you getting premates can be a job and half too).  When the owner of the male I tried to use twice on the second occasion asked her Vets to take an test a sample they were unwilling to do so.  In fact they suggested she did it herself and brought the sample in, duh by then it wouldn't' be worth analysing.

Keith from fit and fertile does fertility tests, we had our stud dog tested last week, not that there is anything wrong with him we just get him checked out occasionally, his average litters are between 9 & 11 puppies.
He will be 6 this year, no stopping him yet ha ha!

I suppose fertility is the main reason people choose younger dogs but I know of a dog that sire a litter at 11 and it was the best litter he ever produced. Fantastic litter that produced two fabulous show dogs.

Thank you very much for your thoughts and experinces, very helpful &interesting.

I do think the breed of a dog makes a big difference.
Some are mature at lot youger so you do know what you are using when they are approx 2 years old.
Some breeds might not have such illnesses that are wide spread and proven to be genetic(but no tests available) and usually show no sign until the magic age of 3-5 years old.

I know in my home country they test sperm pretty frequently and it was exactly what I was going to suggest as a solution on wasting time on mating with a male that ends up being infertile.

One very good reason to me in using a younger male is if the bitch is getting on and can't wait for dog to mature/chance to miss if being mated.
This would also teach the young dog and provide breeders with detail of what that dog produces(if they were to use the dog in few years time WHEN it has matured of course :) ) But then if the bitch herself is older, the status of her siblings is known so at least there is better knowledge of what came of the siblings& bitches previous litters, parents...
I indeed myself have a pup growing up who is from a litter where the male is only 2 years old BUT he has older full siblings(4 years old) and the dam of the litter had 2 litters previously who were 3 and 4 years old. I felt I have enough information provided by relations of the sire/dam to over ride the sires young age.

I have been looking at males that have been used in the past (so I have data of what they have left previously, playing safe :)) so not older maiden dogs anyway.
Also with an older male I feel I know how many litters have been produced and they are unlikely to be used loads more, whereas with a youngster in few years time if the owner is not very selective, every other dog could be related to mine, which I would not like as it would make it difficult to find dogs to continue with.

The main reason why I have decided to select older males to do is indeed because of bad experience :(.
Years ago my bitch was bred at age of 2.5 years, less than a year later she developed AF.
So that litter to me was a waste, I could not continue anywhere from it.
Others did though, which I was very upset about!
I really want to minimise chances of this happening again.
A bitch you have to breed when certain age, with males I hope you can have little more sliding scale and opt for older male who has stayed healthy and the status of siblings/parents is known (as long as people are honest).

So really I am wanting to safeguard the puppies and their owners but also myself in working hard and then being hit by one of these illnesses and having to stop if can't see where the problem comes from or have it too deep in the line of my dogs.

Top stud dog in both Cavaliers and Boxers over the last couple of years have been old boys.
One quite old 8-9 and the other positively ancient 11+

And...both very fertile. The real oldie was on a 'pay if you get pups' basis.

I have found this thread extremely interesting, especially as 3 others are from my bred. Noora i am in total agreement with you, i am mating my girl this spring time and my choice of stud  is way over the 3 year mark and was influanced by several factors mainly health and temprement, as you so rightly say our breed dont fully mature till they are 3 1/2- 4
i wish you luck in your quest, i feel i have been  very lucky as using a dog i have known and admired for a very long time

>> I tried to use my male for the first time in November 2008 (aged 6 1/2 years) The bitch didn't take. I tried again next season. She didn't take again. So I took him to a fertility specialist. He is, unfortunately, infertile.

>Now this is probably the main reason people prefer to use younger males.  From a bitch owners point of vie it isn't as if you just try next month, it could be 6 to 12 months, and if a bitch misses again even longer.

So long as the stud dog has had the relevant health tests for the breed I would quite happily use a younger dog. This means that I would not use a dog under 1 year old, no matter the age of the bitch. I would look for another suitable stud.  A daughter of hers could be used instead, when the 'pup' was still a youngish dog.

I think by young most people mean a dog under say 3 years old.  Most breeds need some health testing which can't be done and results known before 12 months plus.