Hi
I am after a little advice.
Recently over our local grounds a yorkie was attacked by a 14 month old Rotty in an unprovoked attack and subsequently the yorkie had died.
The owner of the Rotty is known to myself and i do not know of other attacks on any dogs but the Rottie has a tendancy to run across the park towards other dogs, not in an agressive manor.
However the yorkie it attacked had horrific injuries and was being walked by a teenager who is traumatised.
The Rottie owner has agreed to pay the vets bills but unfortunately has not had the common sense to place this dog on a lead or muzzle it since the attack.
This is where i would like some advice for the yorkie owner.
I advised her to get in touch with the local dog warden as the police were not interested as no one had been bitten.
The person took my advice but has just told me that the dog warden said the same thing that they were not interested as no person had been bitten in the attack.
Surely this is not correct information is it?
Who if not the police or the dog warden is it up to top make sure that this dog is not allowed to do this again to another dog or maybe a child, especially as there is a nursery school nearby that walk groups of approx 8 children with only 2 adults to supervise in amongst the dogs that are being walked.
If anyone could advise me i would be grateful.

Problem is with such a size difference, just the slightest thing could kill the Yorkie and leave quite bad injuries.  This is why I never ever leave my Spanish and Pom's together for even one second.

I had a conversation with our local dog warden on just this subject. He said as the law stands they can't take action apart from speak to the owner if a person hasn't been bitten.  I believe the dangerous dogs act is in the process of being changed to include aggression/damage to oher dogs.

We had a similar incident in our local park whereby an old lady's spaniel was attacked and later died by a staffy cross. The dog wardens went and spoke to the owner, but I think that might just our dog wardens (great blokes!) who might be on a mission to try to limit damage by out of control aggressive dogs. We also had an incident in the middle of the road, where two horses were mauled by an escaped EBT. Horrific by all accounts, and what was worse, the horses were being ridden at the time!!! In this instance our dog wardens persuaded the owner to give the dog up to a more experienced owner for the breed.

It does help of course that one of our wardens is an ex dog handler for the Police and both are large intimidating chaps, one of which owns Rotties himself and is not in the least bit phased by large aggressive breeds.

I think it's about time the law is changed....

The person at the end of the lead of the Yorkie, how did it make them feel? That is a very valid point to also look at, once answered then it could and i would of thought should be dealt with by either DW or Police..

> Who if not the police or the dog warden is it up to top make sure that this dog is not allowed to do this again to another dog or maybe a child

Just because a dog has killed another dog, does not make it any more of a danger to children than it would be if it had never killed a dog.

Dog-dog agression is different than dog-human agression and just because a large dog has killed a small dog does not make the large dog dog-agressive, the mere size difference can be the difference between a warning snap and the death of the other dog. Also, 'unprovoked is often used when dogs body language is ignored, dogs communicate with each other very subtly, just becasue a dog is large, does not mean it does not feel threatened by a cocky small dog that is 'strutting' it's stuff (I am not trying to blame the poor little yorkie here), small should not automatically = innocent, just the same as large should not = the instigater.
A dog can make another dog feel threatened simply by marching up to it's face, so from a dogs POV there are many more threating dogs out there than the owners could ever imagine.

> but the Rottie has a tendancy to run across the park towards other dogs, not in an agressive manor.

I understand peoples concerns for thier dogs safety, but it doesn't seem as if this rottie is on a mission to seek & destroy all other dogs, it is most likely a scuffle that ended so tragically due to the major size difference of the dogs involved, (which is why my dog stays on a long-line, tiny dogs can be injured/killed by accident/play by a large dog) .
Due to the rotties age (14 months) he is at the prime age to be 'tested' by other dogs and be 'testing' other dogs himself .

The law does need changing to address the issue of dog-aggresive dogs (the ones that the owners know will attack other dogs yet fail to ensure it doesn't happen) but one must be very carefull here, the mildest dog can feel forced into defending itself against another dog and end up bearing the brunt of the law as 'aggresion' is used to descibe what the dog has done (bitten/killed), not why he did it (self defence/fear). Dogs are dogs and many will have the odd scuffle, sadly, due to the vast difference in sizes of dogs, tiny dogs disagreeing with huge dogs is highly likely to end badly, but this does not mean that either of the dogs involved are 'aggresive', they are just dogs.

Superbly put mastifflover. 

if I were you and I knew this person I would tell him that he must keep his dog on a lead and muzzle if it attacked once for whatever reason  even if it start off being inquisitive then he decided he was going to pounce .. he will more than likely do it again.
I am always terrified of this kind of situation when my dogs  are happily playing minding thier own business playing football  when other owners  let thier dogs run over I always stop the game put my dogs on a lead and look at the owners who are usually plodding along oblivious of what thier dogs are upto , to be honest its one thing I get really angry about and I do let them know it!.
One of my roughs was attacked years ago by a dog similar situation ran over to where we were playing he began sniffing my boy then pounced on him luckily I was close enough to get the dog off but the owner and I ended up in a slanging match so I have always been aware and dont trust any other dog than my own.

I would exercise your dogs in a different area and inform all friends who take thier dogs in that area to take care.

Brilliant post mastifflover

Every dog should have the right to be kept safe, unfortunately the owness of that is usually left in the hands of a human being, who often make mistakes, become distracted or do not train their dogs properly, leading to many dog on dog attacks or accidents which could be stopped.

We have so many breeds of dog all different sizes with different characters and jaw strengths that it is inevitable that some breeds are going to be more vulnerable to others, some breeds are rougher in play, some breeds and characters are just not as dog tolerant.

As at present the police are powerless to prosecute, all that can be done is to take out private prosecutions, but as the Rotti owner has already offered to pay all vet bills that is all they can be prosecuted for and perhaps the cost of the dog.

Hopefully as stated things will change, they need to, every dog owner needs to be accountable for their dogs actions, they need to be vigilant and lead if there are size differences or if dogs play differently to those being approached.

Very sorry for the Yorkie owner, after such a thing happening it is beyond belief that the Rotti owner is not being extra careful, I hope this lack of care is not at the expense of another dog, and I would have hoped after paying for vet bills the owner would not wish the financial burden either.

It must be heartbreaking to have your dog killed, none of us would wish to bare it, no-one should have to, they must be left feeling so wronged that their dog is now gone, it's life taken and they are left feeling hopeless about it.

Good post Mastifflover and ehoed my thoughts.

I know this was not the case between the yorkie and Rottie and my every sympathy lies with the teenager and the yorkie but if they are going to change the law re dog/dog aggression they do need to think things out first.

As Mastifflover touched on, what if small dog runs up to big dog and sinks it teeth in its leg repeatedly. Big dog, enough is enough and snaps back at the small  dog. Now because of the size difference, one snap severely injures the small dog. I would hope there was no knee jerk reaction against the larger dog. Because dogs are dogs and will defend themselves, no law can be black and white. There will always be shades of grey.

As the owner of a big dog who is always on lead in public places I do have a dread of little dogs coming up and picking a fight.

what if small dog runs up to big dog and sinks it teeth in its leg repeatedly. Big dog, enough is enough and snaps back at the small  dog.

i have just that situation around here with this old women and her old little grey faced mongel doggie he's never on a lead,

Every time her dog sees my boy he yaps at him snaping it makes my boy jump sideways and pace away from him with fur up and walking at a side angle , i try to get away when ever i see the women coming cos i dread the day my boy turns and says enoughs enough,
but this lady likes to stand with you chat chat , she seems to think its ok for her dog to do this iv said to her before about it all she says is  "ohh his alright" meaning her dog, 

I understand peoples concerns for thier dogs safety, but it doesn't seem as if this rottie is on a mission to seek & destroy all other dogs, it is most likely a scuffle that ended so tragically due to the major size difference of the dogs involved, (which is why my dog stays on a long-line, tiny dogs can be injured/killed by accident/play by a large dog) .
Due to the rotties age (14 months) he is at the prime age to be 'tested' by other dogs and be 'testing' other dogs himself .

We don't know the details about what happened to start this fight, regardless if a dog has attacked and killed another dog (when it has a tendancy to rush up to other dogs) it should be muzzled.  My Doberman has had a fight with a JR but she, although fear aggressive has enough control and bite inhibition that she didn't cause damage, now this wasn't a strange dog and it was over a resource and as it goes the JR did pull the first punch, however if any of my dogs ever caused serious injury to another dog and had I couldn't control then enough to stop them running up to other dogs then my dog would be muzzled without a shadow of a doubt.

I absolutely agree that dog aggression has nothing to do with people aggression but that's not in question here is it?  It's a shame this has been the response of the dog warden as I know my local DW would certainly be investigating. 

I'm talking as the owner of 3 large dogs here, each with their own issues and I see it as my responsibility to make sure they and others are safe - I'm not saying it's ok for a small dog to run up and attack a bigger dog and they shouldn't be able to defend themselves but with the limited info we have here, unless I've missed it, it doesn't say anything about the yorkie being the instigator but it does say the rottie has a tendancy to run up to other dogs.  If that is the case and again it is based on limited infor, then at the very least it should be kept on lead given that it has killed another dog.

My heart goes out to the owner of the yorkie and the poor teenager who witnessed such a thing.

> However the yorkie it attacked had horrific injuries and was being walked by a teenager who is traumatised.

If the teenager felt frightened or in danger him/herself at the Rottie's behaviour, this is enough to charge under DDA section 3, 'out of control dogs' regardless of what happened to the Yorkie. Even a dog on lead barking or frightening someone is technically in breach of Section 3.

Although I know that dog-dog aggression is completely different to dog-human aggression, a warning from the police to the Rottie's owner under Section 3 might well mean the Rottie would be kept muzzled and on-lead in future.

> just because a large dog has killed a small dog does not make the large dog dog-agressive, the mere size difference can be the difference between a warning snap and the death of the other dog.

mastifflover is oh so right here.

I have seen this happen, and a small breed killed, but the larger dog was not aggressive - he was just too strong.

I do feel sorry for anyone seeing a dog die in this way, and I am certainly not trivialising this event, but mastifflover has hit the nail on the head.

I have both large and tiny breeds, and they get on fantastically, but I wouldn't leave them alone playing together.

> if any of my dogs ever caused serious injury to another dog and had I couldn't control then enough to stop them running up to other dogs then my dog would be muzzled without a shadow of a doubt.
>

I have kept a dog muzzled for many years after he proved he was a danger to other dogs and kept him on-lead when other dogs were about (he was a medium sized mongrel). But, if Buster hurt or killed another dog, through his size difference, not aggresion, I wouldn't feel I had to muzzle him. (he is  is kept on lead/long-line around all dogs anyway, simply because it's far to easy for his size to cause injury accidently, despite him being very friendly and non-confrontational),

Last year a man thought it a great idea to test the saying of 'gentle giant' by placing a puppy, miniture daschund (!!!!) between the front paws of Buster (who was on-lead). fortunately, Buster never did his usual play-bow and the puppy ran off, but it so very easily could have ended differently.
If Buster had landed a play-bow on that tiny pup, it would have crushed him, Buster would have probably poked it with his nose and mouthed it to instigate play (the same way he does to my cat, completely harmless, but as he's so big people think it looks savage). To a lot of people that would look like Buster had attacked the puppy and savaged it, afterall, the pup would have died from serious injury and the story would be passed around that 'mastiff killed miniture puppy and traumatised owner witnessed the 'attack', there would be no mention of 'accidentally' in the story atall.
Things are not so cut & dry when there is such a big size difference as yorkie v's rottie.

You are right, we do not know the details and the things we do know can easily be mis-interpreted due to the size of the Rottie (I have rarely met anyone who thinks Buster play-bow is a friendly signal). The Rottie could have ignored re-calls, singled out the little yorkie and savaged him to death. Or, the yorkie could have run up to the rottie, rottie starts to play, sizes aren't compatible and poor little dog gets killed. Or, the 2 dogs could have run up to each other, a spat breaks out and again, size difference turns a squabble into a tragedy. The only thing we do know is the rottie has not attacked any other dog and does not appear aggresive to other dogs.
The fact he 'runs up to' other dogs does not mean he is being a nusiance either. I had a dog 'run up' to Buster while we were out today, but the dog stopped at a respectable pace of about 20ft away and ran back to it's owner when called.

I do think the rottie should be kept on-lead around small dogs (Buster is kept on lead around all dogs, simply because it's far to easy for his size to cause injury accidently, he is very friendly and non-confrontational), but wheather the rottie should be muzzled and permenantly on a lead and kept away from other dogs really should depend on facts we don't have.

The only thing we do know is the rottie has not attacked any other dog and does not appear aggresive to other dogs.

We don't know that either do we - we know the op has said it doesn't appear aggressive when it runs over to other dogs but we can't possibly know it has or hasn't attacked another dog!

The fact he 'runs up to' other dogs does not mean he is being a nusiance either. I had a dog 'run up' to Buster while we were out today, but the dog stopped at a respectable pace of about 20ft away and ran back to it's owner when called.

That isn't what I'd call running up to other dogs, but maybe others would and as with anything written is open to interpretation.  I also didn't say that him running up to other dogs is definitely him bing a nuisance although as the owner of guarding breed I don't think it appropriate without asking and certainly not after the dog has been responsible for the death of another dog whether it was an accident or not.

What you described about the puppy with Buster was beyond a silly thing for the bloke to do but if anything had happened such as him squishing it with a bat of the paw it could hardly be described as an unprovoked attack as was in the op

I do think the rottie should be kept on-lead around small dogs (Buster is kept on lead around all dogs, simply because it's far to easy for his size to cause injury accidently, he is very friendly and non-confrontational), but wheather the rottie should be muzzled and permenantly on a lead and kept away from other dogs really should depend on facts we don't have.

I'm aware things aren't cut and dry and never said that the dog should be permanently muzzled or on lead forever or kept away from other dogs, but certainly unless this was just a terrible accident as in what you describe with Buster and the puppy, just a one off incident then something for the time being should be done and it shouldn't just be shrugged off as it seems it has by the only people who can help without being looked into.

I have read all your post with great interest.
Just to verify that the Rottie came across the park to the yorkie, the yorkie layed straight down onto the ground in submission and the rottie picked the dog up in its mouth and ran off with it. The yorkie was 10 years old. It died of horrific injuries and would never have survived.
The owner of the rottie has no recall with this dog, and as i stated i do not know of any other dog aggression problems with it but that is not to say that there has not been any.
If I see this person walking her dog i will try to approach and advise her that she should either be kept on a lead or muzzled.
I have seen this dog run over to the nursery children when they are out walking as it does when it sees another dog, i must admit it terrifies me. I feel like this when any breed of dog goes near the children.
I do not allow my Weim anywhere near the children and i put him on a lead until they have passed because i cannot guarantee their safety as they scream and squeal as they are running about and i dont think that my dog would understand these small people.
I never allow my dog to go near this Rottie as he took an instant dislike to it when it was first on the scene at 4 months old, and she has had a slight altercation with him in the past but that was my boy snapping at her and she retaliated, so she cant be blamed.
I hope that from my post you can see that i do not have any sort of grudge on Rottie's but in my opinion this dog should be kept on a lead for safety's sake more than anything.

> Dogs are dogs and many will have the odd scuffle, sadly, due to the vast difference in sizes of dogs, tiny dogs disagreeing with huge dogs is highly likely to end badly, but this does not mean that either of the dogs involved are 'aggresive', they are just dogs.

Excellent post

> Just to verify that the Rottie came across the park to the yorkie, the yorkie layed straight down onto the ground in submission and the rottie picked the dog up in its mouth and ran off with it.....The owner of the rottie has no recall with this dog.

This does clarify things. There is no way that the rottie should be allowed to be of-lead atall IMO  (as you can see from my earlier posts, I do not have any axe to grind with rotties either).

What would have happened to the teenager if she had picked the yorkie up? The rottie could have injured her to get to it......

Why can't poeple be more sensible?? I thought maybe it was a case of an accident that had an awfull outcome for the poor little yorkie, but now it appears to be yet another irresponsible owner that thinks thier dog has every right to run amock and if they had used some common sense the poor little yorkie would still be here :( :(  

> I hope that from my post you can see that i do not have any sort of grudge on Rottie's but in my opinion this dog should be kept on a lead for safety's sake more than anything.

Yes, it's plain to see you don't have a grudge, you are simply concerned for the safety of your dogs and the community and quite rightly so.

> The yorkie was 10 years old. It died of horrific injuries and would never have survived.

Poor little yorkie :(

As others have pointed out, under the DDA a person only has to feel threatened/in danger by the behaviour of a dog. I would have thought that a dog the size of a rottie, that ignores it's owners, runs up to school children and has killed an eldery dog in an unprovoked attack is most definately cause for concern in regards to the safety of the public.

Hi,

Thanks for clarifying things, what a terribly sad thing to happen.

My first rescue dog was a rottie and they hold a very special place in my heart so I most certainly don't have any axe to grind with them either. 

Deed not breed works both ways for me and no dog or owner/carer have to go through or witness this.  I will have a word with my local DW and PM you to see if there is any way this can be followed up - she may be able to call your local DW and ask them to pay them a visit to educate them on the benefits of keeping their dog on lead and introducing it to a muzzle to keep their dog and others safe, don't know if she'll be able to advise or do anything but it can't hurt to ask.

I have seen this dog run over to the nursery children when they are out walking as it does when it sees another dog, i must admit it terrifies me. I feel like this when any breed of dog goes near the children.

How totally irresponsible this owner is, it doesn't matter whether you have a Pom, Poodle, or Great Dane what kind of plonker gives their dog free reign to run up to any children. As a mother I would have something to say about that, why do the nursery staff not complain? No dog should be able to run up to children. It has nothing to do with thinking a dog may attack a child, it is very unlikely it would ever do so, but it is just common sense. I would certainly be contacting the dog warden about that alone, the owner is totally irresponsible.

> f the teenager felt frightened or in danger him/herself at the Rottie's behaviour, this is enough to charge under DDA section 3, 'out of control dogs' regardless of what happened to the Yorkie. Even a dog on lead barking or frightening someone is technically in breach of Section 3.

MsTem,

This is what i wanted to put, but wasn't so sure about putting words into another person's mouth so to speak.
I personally think most people would feel frightened by dogs fighting each other, the valid point would be in the teen walking the yorkie felt in danger for themself, really for the CPS to run on that they would need a statement to explain how the teen felt scared that the dog was going to do something to them.
The right course of action can only be determined by an assessment of this dog and getting all the facts together, at this time we don't have them all.

> As the owner of a big dog who is always on lead in public places I do have a dread of little dogs coming up and picking a fight.

My very 1st dog was a small to middle sized terrier type dog I inherited from my sister when he was about 10 months old.  I was 15 and in total charge and dog-ignorant.  On the second or third walk he was attacked by a large dog and I was scared.  So was he.  After that, he regularly charged at an absloutley gorgeous, well-trained, incredibly tolerant GSD.  How he was never harmed I don't know.  If he had been, even if fatally, I know it would have been my fault, not his and certainly not the GSD's or his owner's.
I'm not saying it's the Yorkie's fault [God Bless him] but agreeing that any dog on dog aggression legislation could be a minefield with the aggressors being seen as innocent [as my 1st dog could have been] and the defender [the gorgeous GSD] being condemmend.