I have 5 pups that are 13 days old, this morning mum suddenly started to look very ill so i took her to the vets, they have kept her in and think it is a retained placenta and scanning her before considering operating.  She had a scan and x-ray on the day she had the pups to ensure there was nothing else inside her but they say they could have missed it.

Pups have not fed since before 10am this morning, they are all content and sleeping.  I have tried to feed them with a bottle and milk the vets gave me but they are not interested.  Is it too soon to feed them i.e. they are not hungry yet or will it just take some time to get them to take the bottle.

So stressed and worried, does anyone know how long is ok before i need to panic about them not eating! My friend has a litter of the same breed that are 5 weeks older.  Would it be stupid to consider collecting her and letting her feed my pups? or will mum then reject them when she comes back? I am also concerned about cross infection from another dog. 

Sorry if im not making much sense!

sorry to hear about your girl im sure she'll be fine and the vet will sort her out,
im not an expert but have had to hand rear my girls pup and i just wanted to try help reasure you till someone else who knows more than me comes on ,
as for the puppys i wouldnt worry to much you say they had a feed from mum at 10am, im sure they will be wanting feeding again soon and they'll start to let you know , the milk the vets given you will be much wanted once they get hungry,

i wouldnt put pups with another mother unless your girls going to be at the vets for long and even then id rather bottle feed them on whelpi which im sure you can get them to take once their ready,

my girls pup had me up every 5 hours for a feed i only had the one to worry about so made it a bit easier on me,

hope your girl is ok and home soon , and some else will come along with some good advice for you soon all the best xx

They will need feeding approx every 3-4 hours at approx 13 days, you need a premature baby's bottle with appropriate teat, our breed (a large breed) does so much better with these than the bottles designed for dogs.

The equipment you use will need sterilising, (just like for a baby),   if they are hungry they will will start crying and being restless (lactol or whelpi). You can make up enough feeds for 24 hours and keep in the fridge until required, then re-heat by putting in a bowl of hot water, not the microwave as it continues to heat the milk after taking out and may burn them.  My breed at 14 days I begin to wean, especially if they are getting up on their feet, using one of the weaning porridges that are available on the market.   Or using a suitable puppy food, ground in the food mixer and mixed with boiled water and allowed to cool until it is the consistency of thin porridge, you could also try this a couple of times during the day.

Hope that when mum comes home she is capable of continuing to feed them herself.

Wish you luck.

Sorry did not mean that you boil the water and put on the mix then allow to cool.

But that you boil the water which you allow to cool down first before you mix it with the puppy food,

Thanks for your replies, i have a baby so luckily all sterilising equipment is at hand.  The vet gave me royal canin milk and bottle as it was the only one they had.  They are all still content, i have ensured they have had a wee but they are just sleeping now relaxed and not acting hungry at all.  When i tried them with the bottle they kept moving their heads away.

Not sure i am allowed to say what breed am i? But they are large breed and weigh approx 3lb

they are just sleeping now relaxed and not acting hungry at all

enjoy it while you can , :-) xx

Apologies for asking what breed.

I would think that all brands of puppy milk would be suitable.  After feeding you have to wipe their genitals and bottoms with a damp, warm piece of cotton wool like mum would which should make them urinate and defaecate.  If they keep moving their heads away they are most probably not hungry.   If they keep doing it and don't suck, just express a little milk from the end of the teat onto their tongue - they should quickly get the message and latch on.  My breed would weigh approx the same at 13 days so they seem to be well grown at the moment.

At 13 days old you will probably do better to start them on very sloppy semi solid food from a shallow dish, start by giving it off the end of a finger, or a small teaspoon (a baby's spoon works).

This would be the puppy milk with a couple of pieces of the puppy food mashed up in it to make a porridge.

Sounds like Mums milk has not been affected so I would allow her to continue to feed her babies.  Just watch that they don't get a bit loose due to the antibiotics she will be on, and if needed give them some live yogurt to counter this effect.

I would start the early weaning as above to help Mum out though if she is unwell, but woudl expect their milk needs still to be catered for largely by her..

I too would start weaning now. 
I'd start by putting puppy porridge into their mouths with my fingers and then offer it on a spoon.  If they don't want the latex teat, then I'd put a tiny bit of milk on the tip of a spoon and gently tip it into their mouths after the porridge to wash it down. 

I am still waiting for news from the vet. 

Thanks for the suggestions of weaning, i will make up some porridge now, they still wont take the milk from the bottle which means its been 6 or so hours since they last fed from mum, they are not crying yet for food but are starting to smack their lips in their sleep so think they are getting hungry.  I hope she can continue to feed them when she gets home, she is such a good mum and hasnt left them at all for more that a few minutes.

I have just phoned the vets and they said during scanning her she had explosive diahorrea.  They have her on a drip and antibiotics and the receptionist said she looks a lot better.

Couldnt speak to the vet as she was busy but is ringing me back to explain whats going on.

Hopefully mom can still feed them when she gets home but if not these are things we have tried.

Ive hand reared a few litters as owners couldnt cope or the bitch wouldnt take to the pups.

I would wait for them to be hungry then I would feed them from a bbies feeding bottle with a slow flow teat (medium if large breed)
if they wont take it add a little honey to the teat,its the taste differance they will be objecting to Im sure.
The royal canin milk is very good.What temp are you offering them the milk at?
Ive had pups who wouldnt feed at 37 or 38 but loved it at 39 or 40 (I use a digital thermometer to check the temp)

Ive sent my husband to get a thermometer, i only have one that goes in your ear!

I made the milk to the same temp i would give to my son, i think its more the teat they dont like as suggested but if they were hungry they would be crying or fussing wouldnt they?

My largest male has woken and started moving round the box crying but still wont have the milk and fell asleep once i picked him up, they always sleep close to mum so i think he just wanted a cuddle.

they still wont take the milk from the bottle which means its been 6 or so hours since they last fed from

Pop to the chemist or your doctors/maybe even the vets and get a syringe, (Without the needle) bitch fed pups often find it very difficult to suckle from a bottle, I could not get mine to take to a bottle at all, but a syringe was brilliant use whelpi or mix a cup of warm goats milk with an egg yolk both will suffice to keep the pups going.

They will go down hill very fast if you do not get them fed quickly. Go and find a syringe from somewhere fast!

you also need to hold them correctly ..I found if I put a cushion on my knee facing the puppies head away from me by resting thier body  in the palm of the hand back legs on the cushion  and head between fingers jiggle the bottle around the mouth as if it were mums teat the pup will open its mouth then push it in dont be afraid to be a little firm as they can be difficult as they know its not mum but when they get the milk pup will relax.You know they are getting the milk when they cycle with the front legs in the air as if padding on mum.

I used newborn teats

I also kept a record and fed reguarily whether they were awake or not.

If you cannot get them to open their mouths, very SLIGHT pressure in front of where the upper and lower jaw hinges, one finger on each side of the jaw and the mouth should open, if you still cannot get the teat in, just put your finger in, which then gives you the time to get the teat in, sometimes they clamp their jaws very tightly shut but once you get the hang of it you will not look back.

I would start weaning and take it slowly. I started weaning my last litter  which was 13 puppies, at 14 days old,  in order to help the bitch, who had done a magnificient job up until then feeding without any supplementing being required. The puppies tok to sloppy Royal Canin Starter off a teaspoon, really well and never looked back.
Good luck Im sure they will be fine
Diane

i think its more the teat they dont like as suggested
I've not needed to use them but I'm told that pups prefer newborn human teats to the puppy ones.....

Well i am failing miserably..so close to tears i cant understand why they wont eat!

My two males have had puppy porridge from a spoon but the girls wont have it, they are gagging and growling and wriggling around, they are just not having it! They have all been weeing and pooing but one girl is starting to look dehydrated.  I have spoken to the vet who has said "dont force it down them, better they starve than you drown them with milk" i have an appointment in the morning at 10.30am with the pups to see if the vet can do anything.  I will keep trying all night every hour and hopefully they will be so hungry that they will take it.

I have tried my baby's teats, tommee tippee, mam, avent etc and also have various dog bottles and teats. I would think ive probably got about 5mls down them but they are spitting it out so i cant keep track

Hi

As they are 13 days old you could try and see if they would lap the milk instead of either bottle feeding or syringing.  I had two who would not take the bottle at 12 days when they suddenly deteriorated due to a lack of mother's milk.  One was so little he drank out of a lucozade lid the other out of a jam jar lid.  I did this every 2 hours and made sure I winded them exactly the same as baby afterwards.

I wish you the very best of luck.

dont panic...there is a nack for getting them to take the bottle firstly is it the correct temperature test it on the inside of your arm as you do your baby , they dont like it too cold I found with my litter, So have a jug with hot water in to keep it warm because its cooling off while you are struggling to get them to take it.
If its easier lie pup on a cushion put finger in the side of  its mouth and pop the teat in make sure you get enough of the teat in the mouth   (teat should be the smallest hole so that it drops out if you hold it up) make sure all the milk is in the teat so they dont take in any air, when pup begins to suck then hold as I explained earlier so that the  front legs paddle (if you have the book of the bitch there is a diagram on how to hold a hand reared pup ,  I found this.. hope it helps http://leerburg.com/bottlefeeding.htm you need to scroll down.

Do you know any breeders in your area that could come and give you a hand??

I know how you feel,my bitch was in at the vets with infection,vets said bottle feed for 24 hours,easier said than done! I think in 6 hours we got about 5ml down between 9 puppies,I was in tears,then when I saw my normal vet who breeds she said "oh I  never have success with a bottle" and showed me how to use a syringe and finger,sit the puppy between your legs facing outwards put your hand ontop the puppies head bending your finger over the nose and into the mouth,as the puppy sucks on your finger slip a syringe into the side of the mouth and slowly press syringe so milk flows into side of mouth as puppy sucks your finger,took a few tries but worked for me until mum was back.
Susan

I had to hand rear my last litter ...I was very concerned but once I got the hang of it with all the right tools and a little perseverance I loved it and they came on leaps and bounds ..

Where about in the country do you live?

I am in the midlands, between Stafford and Telford.

It has taken me 1.5 hours to feed each pup 10ml.  The final pup took from the bottle though, she must have been starving by the time i got round to her.  The others i had to use the syringe.  

I am feeling a bit more relaxed now, i know they are only having a small amount but they are pooing and tummys feel fat.  According to the instructions on the milk they should be having between 50-80ml 5 times a day so as long as i feed them more frequently hopefully they will get the hang of it.

Forgot to say thank you all for your advice so far

I have 3 taking the bottle now, 40ml each..just want the other two to catch on! Like a zombie but feel im getting somewhere.

Spoken to the vet, mum has gastroenteritis and cannot return to the pups so i am even more determined to get this milk down them!

Glad to hear that you are at last getting somewhere, keep persevering, it is a stressful time I know.   Wish you all the luck in the world, and hope that mum recovers well.

i was like you afew weeks ago ,these pups are now 6weeks old so theres light at the end of the tunnel ,i had to start weaning at 2weeks and 2days old ,large breed and ,they scoffed like mad lol ,then when mum came back from vets she didnt have much milk but still wanted to try and feed them but would only twice aday ,then when pups got to 4weeks old that was it , hit and miss with her feeding ,i also couldnt give milk 3 of the pups were getting the runs so i gave sloppy feeds 5/6 times aday now their food is just soaked slightly and freash water to drink ,their big fat pudding lol .....your doing well if i was you keep up with tring sloppy foods ...well done and hope mum gets home soon xx

so pleased they are adapting the others will too just keep offering it to them they will all  accept it eventually keep a record of what each pup is taking if you can but the results will show in thier weight.
Remember to wind them by rubbing thier tummies and put them on your shoulder and pat thier back after each feed as you do your own baby.

Hope Mum gets well soon .

Well done

Roni

Im in the Midlands too so if you need any help feeding pups etc please just yell.
Good luck and I promise it doesnt last forever,it just feels like it at times.

very generous carolyn ..nice one!

Thanks for the offer carolyn, its very kind of you ...might call upon you if it gets too unbearable

My local vet has suggested i try them on puppy meat but the hospital that has the mum have just said not to! Oh what fun!

if they are taking the bottle now I would stick with it for a few days when they are around 18 days -21 days I would then introduce more solid food.
a very sloppy porridge or puppy food mixed with the puppy milk try getting them to lap.
If mum has a tummy bug then you really wont want the puppies feeding from her when she gets home in case she passes bugs on through her milk.
Each puppy is different some take to weaning quickly others a bit longer. Once they pass over to solids, feeding  gets a little bit easier but the work load becomes harder with 'proper toileting' :)

mum has gastroenteritis
What hygiene measures have you got in place and what disinfectant are you using?

I will keep trying with the bottle for now, there are two still not taking it but they are still pooing and are strong so as long as i get little bits in via the syringe often then im sure they will be ok.  Two have taken 60ml at the last feed, it is so much easier when they take the milk!

To westcoast...i use a disinfectant that the vets themself use, they suggested it to me four years ago as i bought a puppy who 4 days after i collected her became ill..she was in the vets for a week and survived parvo (and hasnt been ill since, she is not the mum to these pups), unfortunately she had already passed it onto my other dogs two of which died.  I had no recourse with the breeder i bought the pup from as they said i couldnt prove it came from them, however since then i am so careful with cleanliness around the pups and mum has not been walked nor fed anything strange etc.  I have been through with the vet what may be the cause but she said her two dogs were ill with the same thing last year and she never got to the bottom of it.  Today though the vets are saying she has Severe Hemorrage Diahorrea (not sure if it is the same as gastroentirits.  So far so good with feeding, two still playing up but the vet nurse said it can take a week for them to adjust properly.

You have all been great, thank you for all your help.

I am struggling to get hold of Royal Canin puppy milk..vet has run out but is ordering it for tomorrow.  There is a pet shop near me but they only do Lambs milk and say that is all they sell for puppys.  Will changing them now give them a bad tummy?

All pups are taking from bottle now :0)

Do not know if Lambs milk will have enough protein for puppies or whether it would upset them, but it would be better than nothing.   Are you about to run out of Royal Canin puppy milk?   I would seriously consider making up a puppy porridge for them (made with either Royal Canin puppy milk and a suitable puppy food, or if you have run out then lambs milk).  Have never used lambs milk myself, but have heard that others have done so.   But if you could get them to take some puppy porridge a few times during the day it would lessen the amount of milk that you are having to give them - which might get you through to tomorrow.

Thanks, i have managed to find someone that sells Lactol so am just off to get some.  Cant believe the vets dont stock it, my own fault though as i should have checked yesterday and not risked almost running out!

Thanks again

Best of luck

try ringing around other  vets surgeries they might have some. Never used lambs milk hand reared my litter on Lactol .

Cant believe the vets dont stock it
Reading through your thread, I'm not sure that your Vet has provided you with very good service and advice at all........ :(
Hope that you have a successful trip but I'd still be weaning them a puppy porridge rather than relying completely on the bottle. :)

>Cant believe the vets dont stock it

Milk replacer is very rarely wanted - if a tin is kept in stock it would likely go out of date before it's needed. Your vet will be able to order it in for you - orders usually only take 24 hours.

I haven't anything to add to the advice already given.

But wanted to say GOOD LUCK I do hope that all your hard work pays off.

We have mum home now, she is on anti biotics for today and tomorrow and then on Friday she can have the pups back, the vet said she should still be able to feed them then so i only have to feed them for another 2 nights!  she is going crazy though and keeps looking for them, she can hear them in the other room poor thing.

I have ordered some puppy porridge from fit and fertile too to start them on that to ease the burden on mum before i start puppy food.  They are having between 60 - 100ml every four hours now, if i feed them earlier than that they wont eat it.  They are healthy and are growing well.

Thank you again all for all your help.

So very glad that you seem to be turning the corner at last!  I bet you look like a zombie.  :-)

It is going to be difficult keeping her away from pups, especially as she is already looking for them. 

Good on you for working at it!

> We have mum home now, she is on anti biotics for today and tomorrow and then on Friday she can have the pups back,

Unless this particular antibiotic is actually harmful to the pups and Mum is too ill to be with them then I would not keep her away from the pups as the longer you do so the higher the risk is that her milk will dry up.

My Jozi had very powerful antibiotics when her pups were 10 days old a 10 day course for bad Mastitis, but she continued to feed the pups, their weight gain was a little slower and they gained slightly less than I would have expected.

Is your Vet a breeder, and has he checked that the AB's are actually contraindicated for lactating bitches?

Why do you have to keep the bitch away?  If the pups aren't feeding from her then she'll become engorged and painful and give her more problems. 

agree with brainless ask the vet about what AB's shes been given or post it on here most of us have used AB's with our own girls and mums have still fed pups ok ....but well done :) xx

She is on two types of anti-biotics, one lot she has to take her final 4 tomorrow to finish the course, these are the ones the vet said are harmful. Her second lot she has to be on for a week but these are fine for the pups.  She has so much milk she must be uncomfortable, i have put a warm flannel on her to try to ease it for her (i am still feeding my baby so know how sore it gets!) 

The tablets are called metronidazole (apparently harmful to pups) and nisamox (which he said will be fine).  I am going to phone the vet tomorrow to confirm she is definately ok to feed them after her tablets are finished tomorrow.