Hi all,

I have a question about Springer colours. If  both mum and dad of a litter are liver and white, can anyone tell me if the pups will also be liver or, if it is possible for the litter to be a mixture of black and liver (if you see what I mean!).

Many thanks!

S x

Are any of the other ancestors black?

if theres black going back in the pedigree then you could ,i use to breed ess ,my girl was LW and never had black all her lines were LW and so was stud dogs

As far as I know, Liver is recessive to black, so unless there's something quirky in Springer genetics that I don't know about, Liver x Liver should only produce liver.

As far as I am aware colour in ESS is the same as in GSP to get Black & White one of the parents must be Black & White. The gene for Black is "Dominant" in its expressoion, that is  if the dog has a black gene it will be Black itself, no liver can carry a recessive Black gene.

Genes for Black :: The B-b pair

The B gene produces black coat color. Its alternative and recessive form, b, allows the reduced degree of pigment formation observed in the liver series of dogs.
Black English Springers may either be dominant black (BB) or blacks who carry for liver (Bb).
Liver dogs are (bb). Two livers (bb) bred together will only produce livers (bb).
A black bred to a liver may produce blacks and livers if the black parent is (Bb)  NOTE ::  Liver progeny from a Bb to bb mating will be bb therefore cannot ever produce black progeny itself without being mated to a Bb or BB dog.
If a black who is homozygous  black (BB) is bred to a liver, only black puppies will result, but they will be (Bb), or liver carriers. 
Two blacks bred together may produce livers if the parents both carry for liver (Bb).

Karen

> Liver dogs are (bb). Two livers (bb) bred together will only produce livers (bb).

As I thought then.... The litter will be Livers only :)

What a shame, I much prefer the black and white colouring. 

Interesting that the recessive colour has become the more common colour.

I did wonder if there was a possibility of Recessive Black as there is in the BSD.

In shorthairs the original german hunters favoured the liver roan dogs as they matched the forest. These dogs could produce more broken patched coats or extreme white coats and these were not favoured and often culled hence today this remains a minority coat pattern in Germany. White dogs were however exported to Scandanavia and USA and as a result they have many dogs with this colour pattern, in fact in the USA many top winners of this pattern.

The gene for black was introduced as a result of the use of a Black Arkwright pointer in the early 1900's - the cross was used to improve pigment and improve air scent. The progeny did well in performance test and the blacks were registered in a seperate annex to the stud book - Prussian Blues - a breed within a breed. These dogs were selectively bred to the Livers as the main focus for early German breeders was performance, so sucessful black hunting dogs would be used.  By 1934 enough time had elapsed between the first cross and the stud book was united. Liver however remained the prefered colour for a GSP and blacks have never found great favour. As breeders are selective in their use of Blacks, and as they can produce Liver pups, it is often the liver pups that are the ones that form part of long term breeding plans. As you only get black if you have a black parent it has remained a minority colour despite its dominance in expression.

I suspect a similar preference for LW spaniels by early hunters in the UK that has resulted in the dominance of this colour in ESS but I don't know much about the breeds history.
K.

Yes, I would imagine liver x liver will only produce liver, if it's anything like blenheims in Cavaliers. :-) I like both, but I did have a friend with a champion b/w springer once and he was stunning! I don't know how the tan pointing works in the genetics though....

> In shorthairs the original german hunters favoured the liver roan dogs as they matched the forest. These dogs could produce more broken patched coats or extreme white coats and these were not favoured and often culled hence today this remains a minority coat pattern in Germany. White dogs were however exported to Scandanavia and USA and as a result they have many dogs with this colour pattern, in fact in the USA many top winners of this pattern.
>
>

This is the reason why the Large Munsterlander came into being.   It was originally a black & white German Long Haired Pointer but the German breeders became colour concious and liver/liver & white to liver/liver & white producing liver/liver & white was looked upon as being more 'pure' whereas black & white to black & white can produce liver & white (And even tri-colour in the case of a litter or 2 in the UK and Australia) so the b&w whelps were destroyed or given away to gamekeepers, hunters & the like and that's how the start of the LM.

>Yes, I would imagine liver x liver will only produce liver, if it's anything like blenheims in Cavaliers.

Is Blenheim in the Cavalier due to liver, or is it a 'red' colour, the E gene?

The gene for tri is linked to the A series.

These genes influence the relative amounts and location of dark (black or brown) pigment and of light (tan or yellow) pigment both in the individual hair and in the coat as a whole.
As = solid colour  i.e black white or Liver white no tan
At = solid colour with tan ponits

Two At or tri marked dogs mated together will only produce At (tri) puppies
As (solid) to At (Tri) will produce AsAt puppies which will all be solid colour but carry the tri gene (some may show incomplete dominance with faint tan marks visable.)
AsAt dogs can produce tri puppies if mated to another AsAt (carriers)

K

I think it's an E gene - my book on Cavalier coat genetics is in storage still.....

I do know that blenheim x blenheim can only produce blenheims, but after that it gets complicated.. :-)