As some know from breeding part of this forum, I took on an abandoned pregnant bitch, the pups are now 2 weeks old.

Till now she has been an absolute gem with my kids and visiting kids and never been bothered about anyone taking a quick peek at the pup's over last 3 days that I have allowed anyone in.

But today she lunged at a little girl taking a small bit of the eyebrow away inc skin. I was ready to take her straight away to be put down and hand rear the pup's but the parents said not to as she was only protecting the pup's in her eyes, though I do not think that is any excuse.

I have 2 young children myself and have their friends visiting.

I am really worried and no longer trust her.

Can someone please give me some advice

One, this bitch is just doing what she is imprinted to do, from birth...protect her babies.
Two, an abandoned bitch with 2 week old pups = anxious and unsettled in all likelyhood
Three, you have been getting away with it so far IMO by letting people near her pups so early.
Four...if I were to let my bitch bite a child who encroached on her puppies, I would blame no-one but my self.
Sorry but it's how I see it.

You have probably miss-read her signs when people have come near her babies as acceptance - obviosly this was the straw that broke the proverbial.

She doesn't like it and now she's had the courage to let you know. Try to keep folk away until they are weaned and even then, treat this abandoned bitch with care until the pups are gone to their new homes.

i think the parents of the child are right, and the poor mum dog is feeling a bit stressed, protective of her babies. I have young children too, and when we have a litter, we have limited guests in the house and my children do socialise with the puppies, supervised and quiet and calm, but if mum dog shows signs of being upset then she is left with her puppies for quiet time.  Normally around the time the puppies are 4 to 5 weeks old my girl feels less protective and allows my other dogs and my children to play with her babies.

Hi,

That mut have been scarey for you but I'm sorry it is an excuse, and she should never have been put in that situation.  It's a very stressful time for bitches, their hormones are all over the place and they are protective towards their pups particularly so in the first few weeks.  She may also not be feeling great.  Does she seem other wise ok in her self?  She should be some where that is out of the way of passing traffic and have peace and quiet.

She's bee through an awful lot and is now somewhere new and with pups so must be all over the place.  It sounds like she just gave a warning snap.  I would say that until the pups are older it should just be those she really trusts in there with her - keep your children and visiting children out of the way of her just now and let her adjust at her own pace.

I've got to dash but I hope you were just shocked and realise this is certainly no reason to have a dog PTS. Hopefully someone else will be along with more advice for you.

I have to say I agree 100% with Toolz, it is far too early to be allowing visitors in to this bitch & her pups.   Once the pups are up on their feet, playing & she is getting bored with them, by all means invite people in when she can be quite happily be put into another room if you're not sure but she's already very confused with being abandoned, heavily in whelp and her hormones are surging - I can't really blame her for her actions, it's been all maternal.

i too agree with tooolz ...the bitch i have here isnt mine ,she has 8 pups now 4weeks old ,she now lets my children go into the room and talk to the pups and stroke them ,mum sits by watching wagging her tail and gives my kids a lick ,i watch every move mum makes ,i only let the kids stay for a short time and mum is very happy too ,my kids arnt babys but i still dont let them pick pups up yet maybe another week yet ,i will see ......

i know you havnt done any thing like this before and its a learning game ,pups are very young and mum will do what ever she needs to do to keep her babys safe ,its not till their runing around and eating on their own that she will relax more!

Thanks guys, I took her in a and registered her with the dog warden and I was fostering her but just adopted her last week, never dealt with a dog in this situation before, I have only let people in on the advice of the dog warden and the vet who said it helps to make sure you get homes lined up for when they are old enough.

Until today she has been very friendly towords people, licking hands, wagging tail and wanting to play fetch with visitors.

Toolz has said it all.  She should never have been put in that situation.  The nearest visitors should get is the doorway. 
Although as I've said on your previous thread, I wouldn't be comfortable with homing puppies from a bitch whose temperament and ancestors I didn't know. :(

Bitches with pups don't always react the same to all visitors and the best bet is to limit the number (preferably not have any at all) until the pups are 3 weeks old or over. I have an almost 5 week old pup and for various reasons I had to have visitors here when he was 2 ½ weeks old -as it happens one of those visitors was ChristineW. None of them touched the pup or went very near and them mum was okay. At Christmas when the pup was 4 weeks old the bitch accepted my mum handling her pup, as she knows her well, but when my ex husband came round briefly she was NOT impressed.

Can we please when offering advice try and stick to constructive criticism.

Many thanks,

Jeff.

I'm sorry but I would fully understand the poor bitch being protective of her young.

She is virtually in a strange environment with people she barely knows, no way would I expect her to trust children near her pups in this situation. 

I wouldn't even risk my own very well socialised and trusting girls in that situation without my strict supervising, it is asking too much.

When my kids were younger and had friends visiting I put a bolt up high on the door to the room where Mum and pups were after one of the kid sneaked into the bedroom when going for a wee, and picked up and dropped a puppy on it's head, the child was fortunate my bitch did not react and bite her, but it taught me a lesson.

> an almost 5 week old pup and for various reasons I had to have visitors here when he was 2 ½ weeks old -as it happens one of those visitors was ChristineW

NOoooooooooooooooo, he's never 5 weeks old now is he?   Crikey have I had Larissa for almost 3 weeks now?    

i really wouldnt over worry yourself, whats done is done and put it behind you, but just remember the situation (not like your likely to forget) and put it down to a learning experience, she is going to feel stressed, she's only been with you 4 weeks-ish?she isnt going to trust you fully for at least another few months, and definitely wont trust those you invite into your home. she is doing what is instinct to her, dont make any rash decisions whilst she has puppies, nearly all bitches change whilst looking after puppies, combined with the hormones, combined with her change in home.
its all a lot for her to take in, even if she didnt have puppies i'd expect a few hiccups anyway in the first few weeks of being in a new home. its only natural for her to want to guard. put it all down to learning experience, im sure you will not let it happen again.

> Until today she has been very friendly towords people, licking hands, wagging tail and wanting to play fetch with visitors

even the best well behaved dogs can have off days, its just something you are going to have to watch her with, especially around kids.

either way i think youve done a wonderful job with her, considering all the things that had the potential to go wrong, new dog, new home, new babies etc. dont beat yourself up, just consider it lesson learned xx

I agree  with toolz she is protecting her family . Watch her carefully with her behaviour to the puppies as this may have set her back a bit too.

Breeding isnt easy at the best of times you have done really well under the circumstances give your self a big pat on the back..not a kick up the pants ..the parents of the child are right give Mum a chance. Put yourself in her position would you not give your whole self to protect your kids she is only doing the same thing . Dogs that live together react differently with thier pack if they go near thier puppies.
This is why I kept advising you to get her into a room of her own in a quiet area where she can relax and feel safe away from family , friends and other dogs especially with christmas comings and goings.

Just try to put this behind you , your doing a stirling job for this girl .

How did the little boy get on did he pull through?

Everyone has said it: the poor girl should never have been put in that situation so early on. It's (probably) her first litter, in a strange environment, with strangers, and her hormones are all over the place. Even the most placid bitch will defend her litter, even from people she's known all her life, so the fact that this girl hasn't reacted defensively before now speaks volumes for her good temperament!

Keep visitors to an absolute minimum till the pups are on their feet; your own children can come into the room one at a time, to handle and socialise the puppies under your careful supervision, but not their friends yet.

Thanks, I do have her in a secluded room at the back of the house, she has had that room since she arrived here, I will no longer trust what a vet or the dog warden says ever again, I will always check with you guys first as I have always had a honest opinion from you all, good or bad, it is much appreciated.

Though I have calmed down a bit, we have decided to find her a home where there will be no young children around, once pup's have found new homes too. Have been in touch with a breed welfare site for help with this.

The little boy is doing fine, full energy, putting weight on slowly but surely, he is a third of the weight of the others.

As I have said before, I was only following advice from so called professionals, and regret doing so more than any of you can ever imagine. Nothing any of you say can make me feel any worse than I already do.

It has only potential new homes that have had a quick peek at pups, not friends

I only allow people to visit the puppies when they are 4-5 wks old and later, firstly I introduce mum outside in the hall let her sniff and get all the fuss from the new families  then we go and have a chat with mum present if thats what she wants  , this will also tell you a lot about the families in the first instance how they behave and react to dogs in general  (some people surprise you some shock you ) if that goes well then I let Mum introduce her family always go by her reaction ..my girls always delighted to show off her puppies but different breeds and Mums react differently.( Remembering to make lots of fuss of Mum.)

So pleased your boy is pulling through .
sorry you had such a shocking experience and glad the little girl is ok ..bet you wont be doing this again!!

no I will not be doing this again, never am I going to be stupid enough to rescue a dog ever again

infact it has put me off ever having dogs again, my 2 old boys are not going to be around for to many more years, and after they are gone there will be no more

the amount of times I say after a litter I am never doing this again ... when they are up on thier feet and running around making you laugh at thier antics , then you see the love in the eyes of the new owners for thier new puppieswhent hey hold them in thier arms  , oh and the tears when they leave for thier new homes ..you have it all to come yet.
Plus you will have the good memories for the rest of your life when you get the pics of them growing up ..you will always feel they are your puppies ..everyone of them...
Another week and your can wean puppies then it gets a little easier.

your just worn out and exhausted Louise ...take care

Oh no.... surely not? I understand how stressed it all is at the moment, but your experience is so valuable. Maybe you will feel different later, or not, sorry that must have sounded patronising, wasn't meant to be :) Rescues need people like you, with experience... not necessarily to foster a litter but maybe other dogs in need.... Don't let your good heart go to waste. Please?

No dont feel that way, you're just shocked that's all. When you've had dogs as long as us 'old lags' you'll see that it's just normal dog behaviour.
She's been super up til now and with all her raging hormones and the upset life she's had it's a miracle she's been so good.

Dont let this put you off dogs and/or breeding dogs, experience brings wisdom and you've just had an experience :-)
You'll handle it differently if your in the position again - that's how we've all got so able to give you all this advice - experience.

Your doing a great job, you've had a glitch -that's all. This is a super little girl to have just warned someone off in a very ( in her eyes) threatening position - try not to feel differently toward her, she cant help it.

Chin up - try to keep loving her and when the pups are up and full of fun, she'll be fed up with them and her true character will come through.

We -dog breeders of Champdogs - salute you :-)

We -dog breeders of Champdogs - salute you

DITTO

> Rescues need people like you, with experience... not necessarily to foster a litter but maybe other dogs in need.... Don't let your good heart go to waste. Please?

I second that !

I am not a breeder but I salute you too.  You have done a good deed for a dog and just had a hitch.  Luckily the parents of the child understand, it could be worse.

Well done for taking on a rescue girl with puppies too, dont give yourself a hard time, lesson learnt! :-)

oh, that would be a shame, LouiseThomas--you obviously have a good understanding of dogs, otherwise you wouldn't be fostering, and if you are used to dogs rather than bitches then I can understand how she caught you unawares. You shouldn't be so hard on yourself. Thankfully the incident was no worse, you will learn from it, and at the end of the day a homeless bitch and her pups have been rescued by you...that's a big plus anyway you look at it.

> infact it has put me off ever having dogs again,

You wait until the pups are 6 to 8 weeks old, yelling like demented seagulls and pooing for England the noise and smell etc, now that can really put you off puppies. :D

Have you secure space and shelter outdoors for them yet?  With my breed by 4 1/2 weeks they simply will not be contained in a puppy pen indoors.  They want and need to have more space and fresh air, the House benefits from them spending some time outdoors so that you can clean and freshen their indoor quarters.

If yours are a short-coated breed they may not want to stay outside despite rain or even snow like mine do, LOL but they certainly will be wanting to be in and out all day.

They will wake up and scream early in the morning, and by the time you have finished feeding changing bedding washing floors they will be out four the count and it well be too late for you to go back to bed (where's the exhausted smiley when you need one).

they will get livelier and more wakeful and also by 7 weeks will wanting to do things individually so you will rarely have all of them asleep at once.

It takes a while to recover from the sleep deprivation ;)

You think I am exaggerating right?  Not a bit. ;)

At the end of it you will be financially a lot poorer, and you may even have neighbour problems and complaints made to the Council. 

Also after they leave you to 12 years or more you will more than likely find one or more new owners ringing you needing to re-home the erstwhile pup, you as their breeder (you chose to let the bitch have/keep the litter), will be morally obligated to take the pup/dog back, to rehabilitate and home.

Hopefully at least some of the new owners will become firm friends, that is what makes breeding worthwhile!!!

As this litter was not of the OP's choosing could we try not to scare her too much! :-)
All the above points are perfectly valid and perhaps we should use them as first post for people thinking of breeding, but please all remember this litter is in the hands of a good Samaritan.
Thanks,

Jeff.

I do understand that, but they were given the option of not keeping the litter, so it was of their choosing and carriers the same responsibilities as any litter for the breeder..

Brainless, though I adopted the mum, I did not adopt the pups and they are still under control of the dog warden/council, so even if I'd wanted to cull any pup's (which I did not), I was not allowed.

It's the warden arranging the visits

> they are still under control of the dog warden/council,

I suggest you let them rear them then, as it is you who will have the problems responsibility heartache and costs.

Rearing puppies is costly in money, emotion and responsibility, this is why it like parenthood should not be entered into inadvisedly.

You have no idea what these pups will grow up to be like in health or temperament, and are going to be party to passing them onto others.

They are paying for anything to do with the pup's, if I could send them all packing, at this moment in time I would

Well good luck, you'll need it by the end.

But today she lunged at a little girl taking a small bit of the eyebrow away inc skin. I was ready to take her straight away to be put down and hand rear the pup's but the parents said not to as she was only protecting the pup's in her eyes,

Sorry to hear what has happened you must feel awful ,
i think you have very understanding friends in the parents of the child ,
i would give the dog a chance as her hormones are bound to be all over the place  i know when my bully had her puppy she changed and was like a totally differant dog she turned out not to be such a great mum either,
i would not let anyone else around mum and pups just to be safe ,
thank goodness the bite wernt any more serious , (even tho i know it still not good for the dog to do this)
i'd be greatful the little girl still has an eye as it could have been much worse ,

best of luck to you hope everything goes smoothly from now on
And Happy new year to you All xx

chelzeagirl, it was a viewing arranged by the dog warden. Have called the Warden who was very cold about it, I have told her not to send anyone till pup's are 7 weeks old and 100% weaned off mum.

Parents of the little girl have rang this morning, she had bit of skin reattached last night and is now home, playing happily. The first thing they asked was how I was, which makes me feel even worse. The only reason I have not left home, is for the sake of my kids, all my emotions ect are telling me just to get in the car a get as far away as possible, I can't stop crying.

I have banned my kids from going any where near her and only my husband sees to her now

It's the warden arranging the visits

In that case not your fault, those of us who breed as you can see are appauled that a bitch with 2 week old pups is having children and strangers encroaching on her space, it's terrible what this poor bitch is having to put up with.

But, as you are rearing these pups and caring for this bitch in your home, for goodness sake put your foot down, many of us on the board are very experienced in breeding and what is best for the pups and the bitch, please keep coming for advice and then pass that advice onto the warden who seems to have no idea, your first instinct to have the bitch pts also shows your lack of understanding.  Don't allow any visitors into your home to view these pups until they are at least 4 weeks old. The bitch just needs you and the trust you will hopefully bring, and you will have to show her and earn that, no-one else. Put your foot down it's your home, not the wardens.

Let this bitch have peace and quiet and care for her pups with your help, everyone else can wait.

We shall be here to help you along the way, but please the bitch comes first from now on, no-one elses wants and needs.

I'm printing everything said on here to give to the warden

Good. :-)

Raising puppies is so much easier once you understand what and why you are doing things, you seem to have been thrown in at the deep end here, so don't be worried about asking the most basic of questions if your not sure ask there is always someone here, our first instincts will always be towards the protection of the dog and the pups and to keep both alive and well so you are on the right forum, use us as much as you can to help you here. :-) Especially now that we understand you are not just a BYB having a go at breeding and you are someone trying to help, not sure why a warden has dumped a pregnant bitch on someone with no breeding knowledge (I'll read your past posts when I have more time) but hey ho what's done is done, at least you have us. :-)

Just wanted to say, although you feel now you don't want any more dogs, you will most probably change your mind :-), it was obviously a shock, and so you will need to take some time to come to terms with what happened. I guess you are also thinking, "what if something worse had of happened...", but the main thing is, it didn't. The parents of the child obviously understood the reasons why she did what she did.

IMO what happened was a learning curve for you, just like everything else thats happens to us throughout our lives.

I think you are magnificent for rehoming a rescue dog, it's more difficult than having a puppy alot of the time. It takes a caring (and understanding) person to do it, and you will take this incident, learn from it, and it won't happen again, I'm sure.

The OP's have given some very valuable advice, take from it what you wish, but please don't let this incident put you off be a dog owner, whether it be a rescue dog or not

{{{HUGS}}}

Louise - please take comfort from the fact that this bitch has done relatively little damage to the child. I'm not belittling that the child has been injured - but the bitch has shown restraint in the amount of damage she has done. She is a medium/large breed from what I remember, and could have caused much more serious injuries if she'd chosen to. It is unfortunate that you have not been better advised by the Dog Warden (their fault - not yours!) and you obviously have learned from the experience.

Very little damage to the child indeed, shes in wild mode protecting her babies and how rediculous for anyone to see the pups before they were 5 weeks old is beyond belief (although you were ill informed by a supposedly dog person) and a child was the victim. But dont feel this way towards the species or her,  you will be in shock and the feeling will pass. This is not the dogs fault, you have to remember that. She is an animal and your a human being the most advanced being on the planet. its her instinct, her hormones are raging and shes in a strange place with strange people and is probably very very scared.

> Have called the Warden who was very cold about it, I have told her not to send anyone till pup's are 7 weeks old and 100% weaned off mum.
>
>

And you are totally right here.  It doesn't sound as if the Warden has ever reared a litter - I can't believe that they put you in such a dreadful position.

I don't allow viewings until 5-6 weeks, and, while there are those on here that disagree with me, it is my choice, my decision.  There is nothing to see, and nothing to choose for any potential new owner.  And I feel that it is my responsibility to ensure that my bitches feel secure and not threatened.

You haven't had the best advice and support and I feel very sorry for you.

It doesn't sound as if the Warden has ever reared a litter
My local dog warden is a lovely young lady whose only experience is owning her 2 dogs.  They trained her in proceedures and paperwork but that's all.  She really doesn't have a clue about dogs in general. :(

> My local dog warden is a lovely young lady whose only experience is owning her 2 dogs.  They trained her in proceedures and paperwork but that's all.  She really doesn't have a clue about dogs in general. :-(

A dog warden who knows about dogs is very rare. We are lucky we have a good local one.

I think I'd make a good dog warden but that's beside the point.

Louisethomas 7 weeks maybe a little to late for viewings I would say 5 weeks should be fine for you. As a precaution have them meet mum separate to the litter or if you still don't trust her have her in the garden where she can be seen, maybe having parents only meet her coz small children are scary mad things. Pups should start to be weaned off mum next week. Around the three and a half weeks stage, but your pups will let you know if your going to fast. Mum will also want to spend less and less time with them as they put a huge demand on her at this age, big mouths to feed with big teeth and claws coming through. She should still be feeding them several times a day preferably one before bedtime too. They will gradually drop to less as mum sees fit but if she still wants to give them the occasional drink then it's nothing but goodness for them. But they can do without from 6 weeks they have big nashers then so will happily eat solid foods. Worming should be done at 2,5,7 weeks with panacur oral 10% dose goes off the weight. It's a shame you were not given the book of the bitch as reading material.

One of the dog wardens in this area breeds and shows setters and ddb more recently, she's friends
with my mum too. Still rio was on the streets for a week and
mum finally caught him with some juicy heart after many failed attempts from DW. I don't think strays and dumped dogs clock off at 5 either!

Oh yes and happy new year everybody I hope 2010 is better in every sense of the word and it brings much happiness, health and wealth to you all. Hopefully no more breeder bashing dramas on the box too

Thanks all, I have calmed down now, with the help of lots of Port and Brandy and a good cry. Think that because New Year is a painful time of year for me any way, all this just hit harder than it may of done some other time of year.

Very very glad I did not act while in shock, going to take mum to a dog behaviourist after pup's gone and sort out any problems that have came about from who ever left her on the streets.

Could I have one more bit of advice please before I bow out for a while. The 6 big pup's are all 1kg 600g and over, but the little one has only just hit the 650g mark, I have read some where on the net that little hand fed puppies should start to be introduced to solids at 2 weeks old, is this right? seems to be a bit early to me.

I have hand reared a litter of 11 successfully and  I starterd weaning at 2 weeks. Nice and slowly. I started with some jars of baby food, not so much for them to eat it all up but for them to get used to the thicker texture. I got them to lick it off my fingers. Then I got older baby food with bits in and once they were happy with that I just soaked puppy food as normal. They still had their milk though, but in decreasing ammounts, the more solids they ate. Before you know it they will be crunching puppy food and drinking fromn a bowl of water and then you can breathe :) but the pooey mess they make gets significantly more LOL

Lol! I ran into a neighbour in my village the other day who I hadn't seen for a while and have always considered her an intelligent woman...eyed up my three dogs (she'd only seen one the last time we met a year ago) and announced "well, you've missed a trick, haven't you...you should have got a bitch and then you could have made money selling the puppies!"

I have to say my jaw dropped--this is someone who has owned and bred horses, after all--and just said that after all I'd seen and heard, knowing this breed and having had dogs almost all my life I would leave the breeding and sale of pups to the experts who know exactly what they are doing, to be told "YOU don't have to do anything...the bitch does all the work!"

Will 2010 improve...2009 seems to have been the year of the idiot.

LOL I've had that one said to me as well and maybe yes, for the first couple of weeks or so, the bitch does do it all  but my word, as soon as you start weaning and the bitch cleans up less and less, the words 'hard work' don't even begin the cover it. Its relentless. Summer pups are best when you can put them outside to destroy the garden while you clean up their inside area.