Hi Sharon, I do agree with you. It always worries me when adult dogs attack puppies (with intent) as usually puppies get away with bothering older dogs up to a point, when they are usually nipped and that is that, I did read somewhere that once a pup reaches 4 months, then their licence to be naughty expires in the doggy world and are treated harsher from thereon, it was a new concept to me as I had always thought this lasted longer. If he were mine, (I am sure you said he was entire still?) I would have the jab done to see if it made any difference to his behaviour, and would be very wary of introducing another pup at all until I saw a marked improvement in his response to other dogs, and would be only considering a female pup in any case. I definitely am of the opinion that the lady has encouraged the dog to be guardy around her, even if it is subconscious, little things like gathering the lead in when you see someone approaching, tensing etc gives off signals to your dog, and at first she may have praised him for the odd bark at someone she didn't like the look of - the problem is some dogs then see this as their calling in life - grand protector of all. I know you say she is isolated which can only add to the problems, but what about inviting a few willing doggy helpers round, and using a dog gate, whereby he can see whats going on but not actually get to anyone, he can see she is ok and safe interacting with different people and doesn't need him to 'see them off'. As she obviously is alone frequently with her husband away, she doesn't want the opposite , and personally my spaniels are rubbish at protecting the home and never bark, but with the monster I let him bark initially and then say 'thankyou good boy that will do" thereby letting him know he is good for warning me but it is not required for him to continue (he of course understands english:D) I let him greet people at the door, he can have a couple of woofs but then I move him behind ME so I am in charge of the situation and let HIM know if I need him - works for us. In my opinion if she is not very confident about changing his perception of his role, it is going to be extremely difficult, she is going to have to change her demeanour around him and become top dog so to speak. I push the monster to one side and let him know I am in charge and he does not need to posture at anyone because I decide who is ok and who is a threat. (does that make sense or am I rambling?) It is hard to say why he attacks other dogs though, unless he perceived all as a threat, I would see how the injection works and then consider having him neutured, although this late in life it possible won't have the slightest effect, on the maccho man. perhaps an older bitch puppy would be the way to go? But going down the introduction on neutral territory route, and keeping her separate unless on walks, until she is old enough to deal with him (most bitches are very effective in putting unruly males in their place:D) when you say he attacks pups, do you mean he has gone for a pup belonging to someone else outside the family, with real intent to harm them? He may not see another dog within his own pack as a threat like an outsider would be? but I personally would be very cautious until I saw a marked improvement in his overall acceptance of other people and dogs. It only takes a second for it to end in tragedy, and in my opinion it may well be better for your friend and the dog to stay as a one dog family. Sorry if I haven't helped much. HTH Julie:)

Hi Julie, I can only speak for deerhounds/IWs but my impression is that dams usually cease to be protective of the pups at around 4 month. IMO decreasing adult tolerance of puppies is a much longer drawn out business. In my experience mum starts by putting up with anything. She begins to train the pups at around 2 weeks and her apparent (she may roar and nip but doesn't hurt) tolerance diminishes until she appears to be less tolerant than other adults when the pups are ~ 8 weeks. By the time pups are 10 - 12 weeks other dogs are letting them know that there are rules. Later adults may noisily duff older misbehaving youngsters up, but they won't do more until the youngster is at or approaching maturity. Interested to see if others agree/disagree with that rough picture.

They are not real names but let's call the owner Pat for simplicity and the dog Max for fun :). Max is elderly now, so I don't think Pat would consider castration or even Tardac unless it was an emergency. I don't think she has ever done anything as overt as praise Max for guarding but do get the feeling that she is secretly quite pleased and proud that he does. She couldn't ask dogs to visit even with a baby gate as Max would go over (or through!) it to get the other dog. The only dogs he is OK with are ours, and if anything he is very slighly on the submissive side of the scale with them. She can't ask human friends to meet Max either. He has never given a person more than a nip though he looks and sounds ferocious, but it isn't worth the risk. Anyway this has been going on for years, he is a very big GSD and most of her friends are already scared of him :). Some regular visitors can go into the house without Max trying to evict them, but he is only friendly with a tiny handful. I've been there a couple of times when Max was about to have a go at a visitor and he has gone down and behaved when I've guldered at hi, but it just doesn't work for Pat.

I agree with you about a pup not being a good idea - especially as I'd probably have bred it . Its just a pity as I'm 99% sure he'd be fine with a puppy here.

Hi Sharon ,

Would just like to agree that it sounds to me like the dog is picking up on a lack of confidence in his current owner.

I see this with Fintan (hubby) and Jake (GSD) in a different way in that Fintan has always been slightly afraid of GSD's since he was a policeman in Liverpool. He was fine with Jake as a puppy, and he feeds Jake all of the time. Since Jake has become an adult though Fintan has always had a mild fear of him, more a subconsious thing than anything else but Jake knows this, and will occassionally act up on Fintan, resulting in Fintan getting nervous and Jake acting up again. By acting up I mean that Jake will not obey Fintan and will sometimes growl at him. It seems to be a vicious circle as they seem to feed off each other.

Now jake has never been violent or even attempted to bite, and whenever he has one of these moments with Fintan, I have no problems telling Jake to go to bed and him obeying without any coercion or force whatsoever.

Fintan and I have talked about it, and he is not willing to overcome his fear (he is nervous around strange dogs as well) and as we have no problems with Jake behaving anywhere else, in public, visiting etc, and the problem is only with Fintan we live with it. By Fintan overcoming his fear I mean that when Jake growls at him he give him a smack and put him to bed. We have never had more than one growl from Jake at Fintan either in two years and as Jake immediately obeys me in this scenario we do not expect that it will deteriorate.

It sounds similiar in that your friends dog is picking up on something not tangible just as Jake does with Fintan.
Hope this makes sense

Theresa

Hi Theresa, I understand exactly what you are saying and was talking to Ian about a very similar situation just last week. I think the second an owner becomes even slightly afraid of a dog, he or she has had it with that dog unless they can genuinely overcome the fear. You can put a good face on fear for people but I don't think it works with dogs. Jake is probably OK with Fintan because you are around but I'd guess that he might be a bit of a monster if Fintan owned him and you were not on the scene?

I often wonder Sharon if that would be the case and think it would :)
I did all of Jakes training and he is very good for me but really pulls Fintan's chain

I agree too that once fear sets in that no matter how you try to hide it, dogs will pick up on it.

Theresa

hi noug, just picked a bit out from your thread about fintan, if he was to give your boy a telling off with a bit of a scruff, if he was to play him up,i think fintan would end up being bitten by your boy, they understand each other at the mo and that is the best way to leave it, if he tryed to be a bit masterfull with him it would not work,your boy works well for you and best to leave it that way, sorry to come in on your thread. regards tina.

my thoughts exactly tina, we're all happy with the arrangement so if it ain't broke don't fix it :)

Theresa

hmm, I"m getting a feeling of 'control' on her part. Instead of having to say "no" to visitors/people intruding, she can rely on her dog's actions to keep the world at bay. A slight pleasure that her dog can vocalize her resentment? She also feels safe with her large aggressive dog that would stop any burglars who dared to set foot in her house.

I'm not trying to be rude or mean. But it sounds like she's been living with her dog's 'quirks' for a while and he suits her desires for doggy behavior. It gives her a way to politely say "no" without it being her fault.

Do you really think that she wants to change him? Or is it more of a wish to please or fulfill the expectations of those around her concerning her dog that she's looking into 'solving' his problems?

I had an acquaintance with a Pom bitch, living next door to people who had intact large dogs. I honestly believed she should get her spayed.
But instead of directly saying to me, "No, I don't want her to be spayed. I don't think she needs it." An entire year was spent with her coming up with excuses such as, "there's no money" "I plan on doing it soon" "She's not in heat." etc...
I wasn't even the one bringing up the topic after a month or two. But she thought that's what I wanted to hear.

It could be a similar situation with "Pat". Her dog is reacting how she really wants him too..so he won't ever change---especially since he's now elderly. :(

Hi Sara, think I've given the wrong impression. Pat has plenty of visitors - place is like Clapham Junction at times :) - but when company arrives Max is safely shut in the boot room before the door is opened. But you are right to say that Pat has been living with Max for a long time and rather likes him the way he is. She is nervous about being alone in a big isolated house and about driving on her own (she always brings Max) at night. And I suppose she has a point. I certainly wouldn't like to attack Pat while Max is around! Since Corrib died my crew might lick an intruder to death but with the possible exception of Ben that's the worst they would do. I don't even worry enough to lock the doors (OK, I'm stupid :) ) and that is probably why my lot are the way they are, but Pat is more sensible. Pat would always have liked Max to be steady with other dogs (she doesn't admit it, but I think she may be nervous of strange dogs), but found his guarding behaviour with people quite containable. Its only now that the old deerhound has gone and they would like to get a pup that Max has posed a bit of a problem.

S'ok, Sharon. Don't pay attn to my musings.... I guess that I've known too many "Passive aggressive" people in my lifetime :rolleyes: :D :D :D

But I can completely understand the scary feeling of being alone in a remote house to appreciate a dog that will definitely be protective. Still, I like my little watchdogs better than having a "guard" dog :)

Do you think that perhaps attempting to introduce a young-adult bitch might make any difference in his behavior?.... oh, and on neutral non-property territory, like your place?

sharon just read this bit of the post and i realy get narked about g.s.d's as you know, if you have a good relationship between dog and owner, mutual respectfor each other no dog whatever there breed needs to be "guarding",people that realy do not understand the breed,subconsiously encourage it's guarding instinct and then have to deal with the outcome,most dogs will protect there owners, they know when they have to do what they have to do,nervouse aggression especialy in a g.s.d is dangerous and unpredictable and this is were the problem lies with this breed people do not realise what they are doing when they handle these breeds.regards tina

hi sharon,
personaly i feel this dog will not change all the time it is being handled by this lady, although as thought, it is somthing she is giving off and try as she might to stop thinking or feeling the thoughts when she is with the dog, it is inprinted in the dog to now behave this way,if both owners are out with the dog together, who holds the dog, even if it was the lady, and then the chap held the dog i think the lady would almost react if a dog or person was to approach even if they felt they were doing nothing to encourage the dog to react, i am sure it would almost react the same, again the nipping of people in the home, i feel the lady of the house again sends out vibes and the dog senses it, and if the visitor is cautious of the dog it will almost certainly react to that.other than muzzle the dog when out and if visitor are in the house i realy can't sugest much, any dog that has attacked or killed another dog in my opinion is not sound and caution needs to be 100%, regards tina

The "bite them before they can wolf you" principle :).

Hi Sharon

My thoughts on this from reading the posts is that this problem has not stemmed from lack of handler confidence - possibly quite the opposite! I feel that Julie may have hit the nail on the head with her comments on body language and tensing the lead which the dog will have picked up on and responded to.
Maybe the first time he growled at someone your friend may have felt protected and pleased and praised the dog for his actions increasing his sense of importance and confidence. Encouraging a dog to be protective is not a problem and very easy to achieve - it's the ability to control this and be able to 'switch off' which is more important as if overlooked can cause aggressive behaviour to escalate and spiral out of control.
I've passed a few people on a walk standing holding their dog as I've gone past with mine. They are holding thier dog back so tightly that its front legs are off the ground as its lunging and snarling at me or mine. The owners aren't afraid of their dog - but they have let that problem get so bad that they've got no chance of continuing with their walk until I'm far enough away for their dog to calm down - happy with the thought that it's 'seen me off'.
Maybe something similar has happened with your friend. She may not be afraid but is aware of the size and strength of her dog. If the probability is that the dog is going to lunge then the possibility is that the handler may end up on her a*se with a wrenched shoulder or trip up and someone/another dog has then received an injury. That's what makes some people stand still, tense up and shorten their leads - all gestures signalling to the dog 'game on'.
Lara

Having had a GSD with fear-aggressive behaviour I got awfully tired of being blamed for somehow triggering the dog or failing to understand how to correct it. The "it must be your fault" ,by the way, came mostly from the dog's breeder. I took this dog to several trainers for advice, nothing worked. She was trustworthy with strangers, so long as they did not focus on her too quickly, if they did she felt threatened. She would try to attack other dogs if they came toward her straight on. She would selectively attempt to charge after other dogs around my home, not sure what would trigger her. She was a show dog and had no problems in the ring. I had three other dogs in my home and up to the end she was okay with them. Eventually she became fearful and aggressive toward my playful Cairn and I, very reluctantly, sent her back to her breeder.

Agree with Tina that an aggressive dog that attacks without provocation is not sound of mind. All behaviour is not correctable, even with the best of training and the soundest of owners.