just an enquiry and does not apply to me. if dog (a) had normal testes but was known to have thrown several litters with monochid/ crypto pups. would a bitch from said litter pass this on to her pups if she were to be bred from with dog (b) who appeared to have normal testes and no record of any monochids along his lines. dog(a) and dog(b) are in no way related, at least as far as 5 generations, and probably more.
i only ask this because i am under the belief that it is only males that carry the monochid gene? am i right?

I'm not an expert but I believe the litter sister of a "one ball boy" can carry the gene...
I know that my girl had a litter brother whose testicles did not drop, she herself produced a boy whose 1 testicle did not drop...
Male used with her had few litters and had not produced any puppies with the problem before...
Could be coincidence of course but I'm sure I have been told/read from somewhere it is not just the boys who carry the "fault"...

You are talking about monochid-gene, so do you mean dogs that only have 1 testicle(which I think is quite rare) or ones whose both testicles have not dropped so have 1 in the right place, another one somewhere on the way :)?
If you are talking about true Monochids, then I do not know about inheritance as most cases I have heard have had 2 testicles but only one that has dropped...

yeah lol, i meant 1 undescended testicle

The condition is most often referred to as Cryptorchidism. There is information here:
http://www.ivis.org/advances/Concannon/memon/ivis.pdf

"Cryptorchidism is heritable and is a sex-limited autosomal recessive trait in dogs [4]. The incidence of cryptorchidism seems
to be higher in purebred and inbred dogs than in mixed-breed dogs. High prevalence of cryptorchidism within lines of inbred
cocker spaniels and miniature schnauzers has been reported [5,6]. High frequency of other congenital defects noticed in
cryptorchid dogs include inguinal and umbilical hernias, patellar luxation, and preputial and penile problems. Retained testes
also have a tendency to develop neoplasic changes. The risk of neoplasia in retained testis has been reported to be 9 to 14
times higher than in the scrotal testis [7,8], with Sertoli cell tumors and seminomas being the most common tumors [9]."

" Control of crytorchidism can be accomplished by removal of the cryptorchid dogs and preferably their dam and sires from breeding programs."

Basically, it means that as an autosomal recessive, (as it is believed to be in the dog), both parents must be carriers of the gene. It can be carried by (but not seen in, obviously!) females. If you have a litter where you have a cryptorchid puppy, then both parents carry the gene; in addition, 50% of the littermates will also be carriers (males and females).

thanks thats great xx

Actually, now I come to think about it, breeding from any dog in a litter where a crypto has turned up is potentially dangerous. If a male in a litter is a cryptorchid, then any female littermates could also be. I know that doesn't make sense at first glance, but like most recessive genes, you have three types of status: Clear, Carrier and Affected.
Clear =no copies of the gene.
Carrier = one copy of the gene, appears normal, but will pass on that copy to 50% off offspring.
Affected = two copies of the gene, is a cryptorchid, will pass on one copy of the gene to 100% of offspring.

However, females in that litter could be any of the above.... a female could have two copies and be Affected, but as it's female you wouldn't know, as it won't show. That female will then pass on one copy to every puppy it produces, i.e. all her puppies would be carriers.

what if the litter that the bitch was from had no crypto present this could indicate that dam was not a carrier... i know its all statistical and so there is still a possibility. if no record along future husbands lines show crypto, then in theory the puppies could only be carriers? Cc x CC?

thats if the background information you have is accurate!!! Unless you know all the dogs personally then I dont think you can say with 100% that it is fact!  Too many things get swept under the carpet and too many breeders overlook health issues when they are hell bent on breeding their from certain dogs.
I know a bitch in our breed who had two litters which both contained dogs with 1 and a couple with none!!!!  As far as I can find out the sire didnt produce this with any of the other bitches he went to?  And the bitches litter had been fine.

In 30 years of having Pom's only ever had one male with this, never seen it in any of our lines before or after.  Asked the breeders of the lines used and they also said they'd never had it.  Typical that he was the most gorgeous Pom I'd ever seen but couldn't be shown.

> Basically, it means that as an autosomal recessive, (as it is believed to be in the dog), both parents must be carriers of the gene. It can be carried by (but not seen in, obviously!) females. If you have a litter where you have a cryptorchid puppy, then both parents carry the gene; in addition, 50% of the littermates will also be carriers (males and females).

and of course you could have a bitch that is affected, (carrying two copies of the gene) and when mated to a clear male, will produce all carrier offspring, so that the male parent may be totally Innocent when his sons/daughters go on to produce th trait when mated to carriers.  Also if the bitch with double dose of the gene is mated to a carrier her offspring Will be affected and carriers.

So not an easy trait to track accurately.

From this it can be seen why evidence of entirety is so important, and why there appears to be prejudice to neutered males, the worry is always that it could be disguising one ballers.

> So not an easy trait to track accurately.

No... it makes me wonder if a DNA marker could be found for the gene... an autosomal recessive is fairly easy to look for, then a test could be developed to establish any clear dogs from lines which have thrown cryptos. Which would make more sense than to discard all dogs from dubious lines.... or carry on regardless, as some might do, which may be necessary in smaller gene pools. There could be cumulative effects in the future and it would be in the best interests of genetic diversity to be able to clear any 'suspects' or determine carrier/affected status, especially in bitches.
(BTW I'm not a dog breeder, but do have some contextual genetic knowledge).

I know to use a male with just one testicle is seen as unacceptable and indeed many kennel clubs will not register puppies from such matings.
However I doubt many people see using a litter sister as such a bad thing when in genetic terms she could be the same as the affected male... I know in my breed they are used not disregarded because of the litter brother being affected.
This makes me think it is possible often the bitches side this trait will go down the generations, not the male (that often gets the blame!).

I really do not know what to think about this.
I kind of think this is not serious illness and dogs with the fault go to live totally normal life so there are much worse problems around...
If the bitch was clear, all puppies would be carriers?
If affected male was used and his male puppy had both testicles, this male puppy would be a carrier, am I right?
If the bitch in the combination was clear, all puppies would be carriers?
This carrier male puppy then used to a clear bitch would make clear and carrier puppies so in second generation we could have clears, which is not bad? Of course we do not know if the bitches used in these matings are clear, but with extensive research we should have a good picture of their status...

I do realise the long term problems for the breed though and personally see fertility as a very important factor in my chosen lines(as in my breed there are already some fertility problems) but if somebody was to use a affected male with everybody involved knowing this is the case(being open&honest about it) it would not necessarily be that bad? It would be same as using a litter sister(as their status is not known)of an affected dog which happens all the time?