Recently, my dogs have begun to attack other dogs.  Not all dogs - dogs they already know and dogs who are really playful, confident and friendly they are brilliant with and they give a very good impression of well balanced canines.  They are also perfect at home.  However they have a thing about young dogs (even bigger breeds - they went for a weimeramer), miniature king charlies spaniels and shitzus.  What happens is, that Billy the dog starts the attack and Maisie the bitch barks and barks and winds the situation up to fever pitch.  What then happens is the owner starts to yell, the other dog panics and starts squeaking and the situation cranks up even further until you can finally catch the two of them and put them back on the lead.  Please note though that no actually biting or breaking of skin or shaking has ever taken place - so far.

You are going to say, "Why don't you keep them on the lead then" - this is because the situation did improve dramatically - we are currently attending behavioural classes - but once Billy is in the zone - there's no getting them out of it and they were both fine up until recently.  They were both attacked last year and are very suspicious of certain dogs but this is a relatively new development. 

Help!

I have no specific training advice but definitely keep them on the lead in future.  One day you will come across a dog or owner who lays into your dogs for having a go and there will be more than noise to deal with.  If this is in response to them having been attacked last year (although I would imagine that there would have to have been a recent trigger) then you will need to make efforts to resolve this.  In the mean time I would keep them on a lead and reward them for not reacting to other dogs when they see them.  This will mean you are in control and your anxiety will be lower as you know they can't respond.

I would also suggest that you walk them separately so that they can't wind each other up.

Thank you - I will do this - I will just have to keep plugging away I suppose.  It's such a shame as I like them to have freedom but all the time they are behaving like this it is not possible.  Thank you again for your responses and wise advice x

> It's such a shame as I like them to have freedom but all the time they are behaving like this it is not possible.

please do keep them on the lead, i get this all the time with dogs running up to tio and starting something. i keep t on lead at all times because i know he's not great with other dogs but we're working on it and his behaviours really improving. when this happens it sets him right back and he's scared to go for walks. one day he might fight back and given his size do some serious damage to his attacker.

> please do keep them on the lead, i get this all the time with dogs running up to tio and starting something.

Totally agree. I get this a lot with Buster (loose/off-lead dogs running up to him & having a go), Buster is kept on a long-line simply due to the fact his size frightens people, he is very friendly but too large to play with all dogs. I now give Buster plenty of lead (long-line) in these situations so he is free to defend himself if need be (afterall I don't want my dog to feel 'trapped' by the lead & resort to attacking dogs out of fear), it's working a treat as a play-bow from such a big dog tends to send the 'attacker' running (bless, Buster just wants to play), but I don't know how long it will be before he finally has enough of being a target simply because he is big (I hope that day never comes).

PLEASE keep your dogs on a lead/long line when you can't be sure they wont have ago at other dogs. Each time your dogs 'get in the zone' of doing this it will only serve to ingrain the habbit deeper (making it harder to rectify) and it puts your dogs at danger of being had a go back at, it also causes problems for other dogs & thier owners.
I think we all accept the fact that the odd scuffle between dogs is par for the course, but when one knows thier dogs are 'iffy' around others it's a different story, they should not be set free at the peril of others.

I agree with everyone else, you need to keep them on the lead around other dogs. When I went to university my parents had my older dog and she got into some very bad habits the worst being rushing up to other dogs and giving them a brief going over, my parents always used to complain to me about my 'naughty dog' and the other dog owners who would yell at them for having an out of control dog, they made the problem worse though by not doing anything about it all,they said it wasn't fair to keep her on the lead (how fair for the other dogs just minding their own business though?) and the more fights she started the more she seemed to enjoy it.
When I had my dog back the first thing I did was start taking her for her walks VERY early and quite late, that way the park was very quiet and I could relax and enjoy the walk without having to worry constantly or have her on her lead all the time. Also this dog has a super recall so she could be called away from a charge and put on her lead, I found that the longer I prevented her from fighting the more tolerant she became of other dogs. Don't know your dog at all but I will agree again with MastiffLover that fighting dogs seem to feed off the habit, if his re-call is good you only have to lead him when you spot another dog and he can still have off lead play. If not, work on his re-call and find some quieter walking places.
Obviously if you live in a big town or city there probably aren't many places you can exercise dogs without other dogs being around and walking after dark in parks could be unsafe, its a difficult one :(

I am sure you are sick of hearing it but keep them on the lead. It would be nice if they could run about but you said "but once Billy is in the zone - there's no getting them out of it". I have had my dog & other dogs I walk, attacked by other dogs off the lead. Then to have the smug owner say " he isn't good with other dogs" KEEP IT ON THE LEAD THEN!! Sorry I had a bit of a rant about another situation. Its not fair on the other dogs to have their happy walks interrupted by being attacked...:(

maisiemum, could you not reinstate the services of a trainer?  I think I remember you having the same prob back in April?  Did you seek advice then?  Perhaps a bit of retraining is needed?  :)

One day you will come across a dog or owner who lays into your dogs for having a go and there will be more than noise to deal with.

I had a Rhodesion Ridgeback that came charging over to me in a dominant/aggressive manner. I have a 25mth Mastiff/Akita, & a 4mth Dobermann both on the lead, both dog friendly, I shouted to the gentleman I have a puppy here, can you control your dog, he didn't so I laid into the dog followed by my Akita/Mastiff. (Tank is normally friendly towards other dogs, but I think he was protecting me). This is starting to be a regular occurrence due to irresponsible dog owners who have little or no control over their dogs when off the lead.  So please keep them on the lead, it isn't fair for either party - human or canine. Good luck with your training :-)

> I shouted to the gentleman I have a puppy here, can you control your dog, he didn't so I laid into the dog followed by my Akita/Mastiff. (Tank is normally friendly towards other dogs, but I think he was protecting me).

laying into somebodys dog because it didn't respond to a re-call??? You are asking to get attcked by a dog - or an owner!

Please dont EVER encourage or allow your dog to fight with others, you have a very powerfull dog there, with the wrong handling he is just a time-bomb. I have had more than my fair share of dogs acting all 'dominant' with Buster, but he is ALWAYS enouraged to be friendly and if need be WE move away. I teach him how to behave around loose dogs, not expect the world to lock all distractions away from him and i know that when he is confronted by loose dogs, he wants to PLAY with them.

I know this post probably sounds harsh but you have a MASTIFF crossed with an AKITA, that is a stupid mix but would be OK with a responsible owne., PLEASE do your dog justice and be responsible.

If I met somebody with a huge dog, and both owner & dog 'laid into' my dog, I would be pressing charges under the DDA. A dog with the size & power of yours can do SERIOUS damage, please don't allow that to happen.

.......The mind boggles......... I can't imagine what you were trying to teach your puppy?? 'Loose dog acts macho so we attack it'?? Wouldn't it be far more sensible to teach 'loose dog acts macho, if you feel threatened we'll move away'???

After my first dane was attacked by a smaller dog she became very aggressive with anything that approached her off lead. I tried resocialising and re training but one day a mini jrt umped and caught her by the jowels. Diz picked it up and shook it, injuring it very bady and costing me £500 in vet fees. The owners blamed me and reported me for having a dangerous dog I couldn't control - even though their dog approached mine and initiated the attack. :(

I trust my dogs off lead but there's no knowing what the dog they want to play with is going to be like. Mine are called back and on lead as soon as I spot another dog on our walks.

> I shouted to the gentleman I have a puppy here, can you control your dog, he didn't so I laid into the dog followed by my Akita/Mastiff.

I'm absolutely appalled by this post :-(  This loose dog never done either of your dogs any harm and you 'layed into it' and allowed (encouraged?) your dog to attack it?

It's a fact of life that not all dogs have 100% recall, especially young or rescue dogs. We have to expect the odd dog to approach us and for the owner not to be able to recall it. If your dog is dog aggressive then it's your responsibility to muzzle him to keep all other dogs safe. I have a dog aggressive giant breed, he's mellowed a lot now but was an an absolute horror with other dogs in his youth. I kept him muzzled at all times when out even when walking in very remote areas.

Mastifflover - excellent post

To the original poster I understand the need to let your dogs off lead, my own breeds need to run free every day - lead walking is a very poor subsitute, please muzzle them and walk them separately until you are sure they can be trusted.

I agree with walking them separately.

Lead walking with both may actually make their responses worsen (although they won't be able to chase another dog, granted). However, lead walking doesn't take away the risk of another dog approaching them - a lead won't do a thing in such circumstances.

laying into somebodys dog because it didn't respond to a re-call??? You are asking to get attcked by a dog - or an owner!

Please dont EVER encourage or allow your dog to fight with others, you have a very powerfull dog there, with the wrong handling he is just a time-bomb. I have had more than my fair share of dogs acting all 'dominant' with Buster, but he is ALWAYS enouraged to be friendly and if need be WE move away. I teach him how to behave around loose dogs, not expect the world to lock all distractions away from him and i know that when he is confronted by loose dogs, he wants to PLAY with them.

I know this post probably sounds harsh but you have a MASTIFF crossed with an AKITA, that is a stupid mix but would be OK with a responsible owne., PLEASE do your dog justice and be responsible.

If I met somebody with a huge dog, and both owner & dog 'laid into' my dog, I would be pressing charges under the DDA. A dog with the size & power of yours can do SERIOUS damage, please don't allow that to happen.

.......The mind boggles......... I can't imagine what you were trying to teach your puppy?? 'Loose dog acts macho so we attack it'?? Wouldn't it be far more sensible to teach 'loose dog acts macho, if you feel threatened we'll move away'???

Well said - couldn't agree more.  I find that post very sad and almost a little unbelievable?  I have a fear aggressive dog and it annoys and upsets me when people let their dogs come running up even though they have seen me change direction and put my dog back on a lead but it is not the dogs fault and I could never lay into another dog let alone encourage my dog to do it (which honestly I find a little sickening).  If nothing else stops you thinking about repeating this then at least think about the fact that you could end up being charged for it!  I can assure you if I saw someone do this to a dog whether mine or not I would not let it go without reporting it at the very least.

To the OP, yes you should keep your dogs on lead or long line to protect them and other dogs.  It will be frightening for some dogs to be approached like that and they will eventualy come up against a dog that takes their attack as real and will respond in an aggressive way and they may end up getting hurt.

Lead walking with both may actually make their responses worsen (although they won't be able to chase another dog, granted).

Exactly why they should be on a lead while working on this - it prevents other dogs getting scared and feeling threatened, which is the responsibility of the person who has dogs that are acting aggressively.  Stopping them practising this behaviour is as important for helping them improve the way they behave as much as changing the way they feel, as practising this behaviour will only make it more engrained adn tehy may find it very rewarding which will make it harder to change in the long run.  So the op needs to use the management of a lead or long line while getting some help to work on this.

Interesting to see that my post has been revived!  I did do some training but it was not a lot of use to be honest.  Billy got better and better as the weeks went by and then somebody brought in a stressed out dachshund which kept screeching and squealing for the entire lesson.  Billy went straight back to square 1 and was pulling and pulling on the lead.  My hands were red raw and Billy's heart was pounding.  They kept telling me to get Billy's focus back on me I tried bits of chicken, sausage, biscuit, entreaties, everything they had told me to do) - the only thing that interested him was this dog.  I walked out of the lesson after fifteen minutes of this.  All that was happening was that Billy was really stressed.  I was worried that he might have a heart attack - I could feel his beating heart at the end of my lead.  I took him back into the village hall and he wet all over the floor - he never does this!

Since then, I have been using one of those spray cannisters (recommended by a friend of mine) and works.  Also, only allowing him off lead when there are no other dogs around and back on the lead when there are - using the spray cannister (or similar noise) when he starts showing an interest followed by reward when his attention is refocused.  Also not having them both off the lead at the same time - makes a big difference.  Maisie is fine when she is on her own and pretty much avoids other dogs. 

Billy does play with other dogs - my friends two dogs and my other friend who is a real expert with five well balanced, friendly canines - he has no problem with these.  He also has no problem with bouncy playful, boisterous dogs and after discussing it with their owners, I allow him to play with them - there have been no problems.  I can almost tell the dogs that are not going to be a problem.  Interestingly enough, we have not had any incidents for the past few months so hopefully things are improving but I have found another dog trainer who I will contact just to make sure.

However I would like to add that my dogs were never a problem before- they were always well balanced well socialised dogs - until they were attacked by two staffy bitches (with hapless owners - not the dogs' fault) in the space of a fortnight.  On both occasions, they were grabbed by the throat and almost killed - once when out with me and the other time when out with my husband.   The second dog literally sought my two dogs out - probably because they were the smallest dogs in a bigger group of dogs (in those halcyon days when I had no problem with my dogs mixing)!  I had to hear tales of woe about how upset the owner was, that she was crying and how she would muzzle them in future - well I was pretty upset too!  Suffice it to say, I saw her again and the dog was off the lead with no muzzle so I no longer visit that place.  The second attack was the last straw as it was from this time that my dogs (especially Billy) developed this problem.  Also, my dogs now have a hatred of staffies which is really annoying as my friend has a lovely staffy and we can't go for walks with them because Maisie is terrified. 

I don't want my dogs to damage somebody elses dog in the same way which is why I am working so hard on this. 

Sorry, I perhaps didn't make myself clear :)

I am not advocating them NOT being on a lead. I am advocating them NOT being on a lead together!

Both dogs are clearly winding each other up and both being on a lead when this is happening is a recipe for disaster IMHO.

Walking one dog ON a lead at a time makes it much easier to control ONE dog at a time.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear Mastifflover. The RR has attacked my dog before, (which I didn't mention), & I didn't have my puppy with me on that occasion. The last thing I wanted is this dog attacking the puppy. My mastiff/akita is friendly & I NEVER encourage him to fight with dogs. I didn't just lay into it because it didn't respond to recall! The RR is an aggressive dog! I was protecting my puppy, 1 bad incident could scar him for life. I really didn't expect Tank to join in - he was scolded for this behaviour.

Well said - couldn't agree more.  I find that post very sad and almost a little unbelievable?  I have a fear aggressive dog and it annoys and upsets me when people let their dogs come running up even though they have seen me change direction and put my dog back on a lead but it is not the dogs fault and I could never lay into another dog let alone encourage my dog to do it (which honestly I find a little sickening).  If nothing else stops you thinking about repeating this then at least think about the fact that you could end up being charged for it!  I can assure you if I saw someone do this to a dog whether mine or not I would not let it go without reporting it at the very least.

So, if a dog, which has attacked your dog before, comes charging over in an dominant/aggressive manner, & you have a little puppy with you, you'd do what exactly? Let the dog attack yours? & what exactly would I get charged with? Stopping a dog fight?

> So, if a dog, which has attacked your dog before, comes charging over in an dominant/aggressive manner, & you have a little puppy with you, you'd do what exactly?

By 'dominant/agressive manner', I am assuming this is the typical young male-male meetting with the dog stood tall, maybe a bit stiff-legged, heckles up, 'strutting' or posturing, if this is the case it can easily be difused by blocking/stopping eye contact and/or telling the other dog 'NO' (done this plenty of times myself), if that fails then calmly move your dogs away.

>& what exactly would I get charged with? Stopping a dog fight?

If dogs are actually figthing then of course most of us would get in there & break it up and do all we could to protect our dog(s), but any posturing or 'macho' body-language is best difused and not fed by agression, thereby teaching all the dogs involved that there is an alternative way to behave in the presence of other dogs.

> The RR is an aggressive dog! I was protecting my puppy, 1 bad incident could scar him for life

Just because dogs have had a scuffle does not make them agressive dogs, young males that are metting for the first time can easily be roused into a scuffle, especially when the people around them are not handling them very calmly. Add panick & agression from humans to 2 young male dogs meeting for the first time and I would be suprised if there wasn't a scuffle really.
It's not just 'bad' incidents that can have a lasting impression, it's ALL incidents. You have shown your pup that when a dog aproaches that you feel uncomfortable with, you attack it, you could easily have shown the pup that it does have the option of staying calm, friendly and avoiding these situations by moving him away.

I understand you want to protect your pup from harm, but that is best done by teaching him, (& through your example when the opportunity arrises), how he should behave. I know it's easy to pancik and do the worng thing, but if you make sure you have a 'game plan' in mind for things like this, it makes it easier to stay calm and turn a 'bad situation' into a great opportunity to teach a valuble lesson :)

We appear to be getting off topic here, and this is of no help to the OP.