ok mum and dad went to view a litter of pups and fell in love with the puppy.they are now all worried and upset.i keep saying you dont have to do the same as the parents are healthy now but mum is suspicious,and thinks she should leave pup and carry on looking.i can see dad is desperate for the pup as he really did stay with dad most of the time.

ok what happened is that the breeders have done all the health checks ect and chipped pups.but they dont come with a contract of sale and they dont vaccinate thier dogs or puppies.she said she dont belive in it and over 13 years of having bred dogs shes never had a problem.she said that vaccinating puppies is  good idea if you wish but not to vaccinate after 2 years as it destroys the amune system and if they do get sick the vaccine isnt going to help.

so ive heard something about this before but to be honest i thought it was the norm to vaccinate every year and to jab pups too.
any words of wisdom. lol
cos nowwww im confused

I'd be worried.  I do puppy vaccinations and the booster, but then don't vaccinate.  Lost a number of Pom's within a week of vaccination and have done this for the past 16 years.

I haven't vaccinated any of my dogs or puppies since 1996 but use homoeopathic nosodes.  I know many breeders in my breed who do the same.

If these breeders are involved and successful in whatever area of the dog world they've chosen - show, field, obedience etc, the pups' ancestors (not just the parents) are health tested, the pups are well socialised in a clean environment, and they've produced the litter for a specific reason rather than just to sell, then I would think that's just about as good as it gets these days. :)

I don't think that is any right or wrong answer to your question Tamara as everyone has differing views on the subject.  :)

What was their reason for no contract?

i dont know about the contract thing id have to ask dad he was talking to the lady more and i wasnt there,shame really id have asked  them certain questions.i did sat id go with to help ask the right things but mum is a know all and wanted to go by herself.just them.!their pup their money ,dad is different tho he called me instantly to ask questions.mum knew she'd made  boo boo by not asking me to come when the woman said about the jabs.
i just said id asked you guys lol

> but use homoeopathic nosodes

what kind?and where from if you dont mind me asking??

http://www.ainsworths.com/site/product.aspx?ProductId=10062&CategoryId=48

Ainsworths are 'By Appointment'  I always say if they're good enough for the Queen then they're good enough for me! :) :)

I certainly would not vaccinate a puppy leaving me =before it is 10 weeks old, if a pup is due to leave between 10 and 12 weeks then it will have to be fully vaccinated, and the new owner would be expected to pay for this if the pup was booked, and not simply unsold to this time.

I will not send out a part vaccinated pup as chances are the owners vet may use a different vaccine brand and restart the whole course, so the pup has more vaccine than is needed, which depending on who you believe could harm..

There is controversy about the possible harm as well as benefits of vaccination, especially boosters.

Many many people don't vaccinate past the initial course or the first booster.  Others like myself vaccinate every few years (as is the modern advice), but stop once the dogs reach veteran status etc.

A lot of old breeders never had written contracts, (my first two dogs came with none from very reputable breeders) and I am pretty sure many still don't, it isn't a requirement, except in the case of ABS breeders or if endorsements are being used then it needs to be in writing that they are being used and that the new owner understands, and if and when they may be lifted.

I do bloodtests (antibody titer) with my own dogs to see if they need topping up. It really seems to vary from dog to dog, my RWxGSD never needed topping up whereas my Lurcher has needed it once.

I always give the first set and annual booster for 3 years. After that I've never done it. Never had a problem, even when I had an unwanted puppy with parvo dumped on my driveway :(

>i thought it was the norm to vaccinate every year

Not anymore.The new protocol is every 3 years. I've read to many horror stories and scientific papers to vaccinate every year... I think titre tests are the way to go,and most dog owners find their dogs don't need re-vaccinating as they are still covered from their first vaccs.
I think you should go along with your parents for a second visit,and try and find out as much info on the breeders as you can.If they are reputable (or not) you should be able to find some information.

>>i thought it was the norm to vaccinate every year
>Not anymore.The new protocol is every 3 years.

Not for leptospirosis - that's still annually.

That's the one that still confuses me!  It's the vaccine that seems to cause the most problems to dogs and the manufacturers say that it lasts 5-7 months, so it would seem logical to me to boost every 6 months to protect them?
With all the rats we have in the country these days, I would have thought this was the most important to my simple mind! :)
I had rats in my garden (and the ratman every 2 weeks!) for 3 years before I moved but had no problems using my nosodes.

>it would seem logical to me to boost every 6 months to protect them?

Yes, it would be better, but it's recognised that only very few owners would do it - then they'd feel guilty that they didn't and possibly not bring their dog for check-ups at all. So annually is better than nothing.

I've seen rats in my garden (neighbour keeps chickens, so it's inevitable) so I won't take chances.

I kept chickens too but had them for 10 years before rats!  The problem was that they built on the farmland on the other side of the road and the rats had their homes destroyed - they needed somewhere else to live, so under my sheds was a good option!
My dogs would sometimes catch them if they were slow enough after eating poison.  Dogs were fine but rats weren't and I struggled with that.  I would have preferred to have found them a new home but it doesn't work like that! :(

Pet owners seem to do whatever their Vet intimidates them to do, so I don't see a problem if a 6 monthly vaccination was needed for the 'common good' as we are told about vaccination generally.  I used to do puppy vaccinations but have never boosted since the Vet I worked for in the 60s told me that boosters were Vets' pocket money, and I didn't have a problem even before I stopped vaccinating.

Many many people don't vaccinate past the initial course or the first booster.  Others like myself vaccinate everyfew y ears (as is the modern advice), but stop once the dogs reach veteran status etc.

brainless, how do you vaccinate every few years? i thought if there was a gap of a year they needed the whole course again?

No, with most brands of vaccine (not all, though) the manufacturers recommend that the DHP part is only done every three years. Lepto is needed annually though.

My breeder didn't vaccinate puppies before leaving for their new homes... If she had, I would have asked not to as I prefer not to vaccinate until they are about 10 weeks old.

Two of my dogs are on a normal yearly vaccination protocol, two of my dogs aren't and are titre tested instead due to autoimmune diseases.

The vaccination debate goes on and on,my dogs were vaccinated but not anymore after speaking to several well respected breeders,we stopped,and also my dog did get an auto immune disease probably due to over vaccination,having been through this I am certainly not against vaccination,but it seems to be a personal choice,our vets now recommend every 2 years so it seems the trend has changed.
I think that if the breeder your mum and dad saw chooses not to vaccinate,don't see it as an immeadiate sign that all is not well,they may of had past experience that makes them feel that way.
Ash

no no its just they have been reading up a lot on the internet ect and talking to different owners ect that it seemed a lot of pups go with first jab.mine do so my mum is wary of something i wouldnt do you see my point.they have decided to go back but after christmas and if the pup is still available then chat further,dad now understands and is keen to get him  vaccinated but then use the herbal remidy(sorry cant spell it)later on in life.
hes doing his best bless him.he said to me last night its so hard and confising its actually not nice picking out a puppy,so i replied wait til you have to choose the right insurance for him....all i got back was very wide eyes lol.

yeah i see your point,i think I would expect a first vaccination,afterall you have to question everything to be sure,i hope they find the pup they want,
Ashx

>it seemed a lot of pups go with first jab.mine do

Mine never got their first vax until 10 weeks, so puppies leaving before then didn't have any. I prefer them not to, in case they use a different brand to that my vet uses, and we have to start over again.

However if the bitch hasn't been vaccinated I'd want to start the process earlier, at 8 weeks. These pups would come under the 'at risk' category because of the possible lack of maternal antibodies.

I didnt get Whistler vaccinated? I did it as soon as he came home ditto Jake.
I did get KC papers with Whistler and ISDS papers for Jake later. So why a problem?

I would never give first vaccinations before selling a pup either. It's either none or both, never one. I got a pup once that had had her first vacc. There was not one single vet in all of the county I was in that used the same vaccine, so I had the choice between travelling for an hour and a half (each way, so 3 hrs in total) to a vet that stocked the same brand of vaccine, or start from scratch. We chose the journey.

I've never sold a pup who has had any part of it's vaccination course.   Nor have I ever issued nor ever received a puppy contract.   They aren't legally binding so why bother issuing one?

> My breeder didn't vaccinate puppies before leaving for their new homes... If she had, I would have asked not to as I prefer not to vaccinate until they are about 10 weeks old.
>
>

I'm in agreement here.  I bought a bitch from a breeder that wanted to give first jab, and she was loathe to let me have the pup unvaccinated, but I persuaded her.  I didn't actually have them done until 10 and 12 weeks.

Yet, recently, a pup that I bred, had been ordered a long time, didn't leave because the potential puppy owner said she wouldn't have a pup without the first jab - her vet said she shouldn't buy him!  So he went to someone else.  My bitches have free access to their pups, and often let pups have a comfort suckle on the day that they leave home.  I told her that I didn't intend to vaccinate, and she was not happy about it.

So, I agree with Brainless, it's all or nothing.  Some years back I bought a pup that had had the first jab, only to find that my vet used a different make. 

Nor have I ever issued nor ever received a puppy contract.   They aren't legally binding so why bother issuing one?

Because it concentrates peoples minds. Makes them think twice and even more times if they have to sign something. I've had people say they wanted a pet then change their mind about buying when they read the contract mentioning it's a pet not to be bred from etc -suddenly the true intentions come out. Also of course unless they sign to say they have understood the endorsements the KC will happily remove them.

I've never endorsed either!   ;-)

> I've never endorsed either! 

I really think all ethical caring breeders should endorse all puppies (I even endorse my own).

IN fact I think the Kennel club registration system should have an opt out rather than opt in for endorsements.  In other words pups would automatically be endorsed unless the breeder asked them not to be.

This at least will mean that if they want to breed (and register the pups) they will be consulting you, so you can advise them for or against that action.

OK you cannot stop them actually producing puppies, but at least it will be obvious to any potential buyer that these pups are not bred as they should be, the breeder who sold the parents will not be seen to have condoned poor breeding.  If it makes if more difficult for the bad breeder to sell the pups all the better.

We have had such a situation recently in our breed.  Despite there being no bitch pups to be had the person who bred a litter without health testing the parents with an underage bitch, had problems selling them, and still had two at more than 4 months of age. The breeder of the bitch would quite rightly  not lift the endorsements.  I don't think that person will repeat her ill advised and unethical

I think puppies should have their first set of injections and i would certainly walk away from a pedegree puppy who comes with no sale of contract, resposible breeders write these to ensure the welfare of their puppies, have your parents looked on the KC puppy finder site? or maybe someone on here has the bred they are after

> I think puppies should have their first set of injections

So do you think it is OK to risk the puppies health by being over vaccinated as most likely the new owners will have to complete a whole course themselves anyway.

A good breeders whose pups are with the bitch until the day they leave has good reason to avoid vaccinating too early as the pups are going to have maximum maternal antibodies.

A vaccine give when there is a high maternal antibody level will not work, so in fact the new owner is lulled into thinking the pup is protected when it isn't.  That is the main reason that a course of vaccines is given, because it is very likely the first will be cancelled out by the immunity puppy still has from Mum.

Personally with pups I keep I vaccinate at 10 and 12 weeks, would never dream of doing them as early as 8.

Personally when I think many poor breeders use the 'had first jabs' as a sales ploy along with 'flead and vet checked'.  A good breeder would feel no need to point out the obvious routine health steps taken.  I have never yet needed to treat pups for fleas!  Though for the first time ever found a tick on one, ugh :(

I really think all ethical caring breeders should endorse all puppies (I even endorse my own).

Same here. My two breeds both have major problems with the wrong people breeding them to make money and the least we can do is make sure people cannot register pups. Again it puts off the wrong buyers, those that have decided to say they don't want to breed but think to themselves they still will, just won't tell me. That goes for the cats too. I even have a 3 ½ year old homebred dog here that still is endorsed.

I think puppies should have their first set of injections

And have the buyers have to start from scratch again or subject the new puppy to extra travel for hours (possibly days after it already has travelled across the country from the breeder) if no vet in the area stocks the same brand? See my post higher up, it happened to me.

Neither of my two dogs where vaccinated when i got them and my vet would not vaccinate till 10 weeks.

Neither had a contract, more a list of do's and dont's etc... wormed such a date... food, how much to feed.etc etc... Contracts are not legally binding, however it does give some protection against people who wish to use dog for breeding purposes. All else in a contact is common sense e.g walking, ensuring safe, taking for health check, knowing the breed you have chosen, ensuring puppy is socialized and is not a nuisance to others... So there is nothing major and binding on a contract anyhow.....

Just adding on at the end. In my breed they tend to go to their new homes between 7-8 weeks, is what i have found.
Older boy had no vaccinations as was too young(7 weeks) to have them at the breeders.
Youngest had his first one done as the breeder kept him until 8 weeks for me. I have to say that my vets stated i would have to start the whole process again as they didn't stock the same vaccinations. I had the choice of either starting again, getting breeders vets to send vaccination down or what i ended up doing was finding another local vet who stocked it and had the 2nd jab there.

As for contracts both came with them.

I think it does depend on how old the pups are as to whether 1st jab is given or not. For me its not something which bothers me at all. Contract yes. Personally i think the jabs are very low on the list on priorities for me, many more things which are MUCH more important in finding the right breeder and pup.

> My two breeds both have major problems with the wrong people breeding them to make money and the least we can do is make sure people cannot register pups.

My problem has been I can't find anyone who wanted to breed from a pup I've bred, the new owners have either had too much fun showing/working their dog/being bought as a pet and no desire to breed.  Now I have nothing to continue with!    

If people want to breed from their dogs they will do regardless, likewise cats too.  There's umpteen unregistered animals out there for sale on Preloved, Free-ads etc. and because they are cheaper people will buy them, some people think that 'papers' are just the pedigree and they are easy enough to copy out.

> In my breed they tend to go to their new homes between 7-8 weeks

Same here so my puppies dont leave with any vaccinations, have had a couple of people not like that and that is usually because their vets tell them the breeder should vaccinate, or i think some think the breeder is  trying to save on costs!
i personally feel 7 weeks is far too young for 1st jab so mine leave without, it is a very personal thing and people do it in the way they feel is correct.

I dont booster my adults either.

Mine all have the restrictions on also, including my own.  I have had the first vaccination done at times, but only by ensuring that the person's vet has the same vaccine.  If they didn't then they'd go without vaccinations.  I also do a contract, yep it can be ignored but I do think it makes people think about things more as most wouldn't realise that it isn't legally binding.

If people want to breed from their dogs they will do regardless, likewise cats too.

Of course, but at least I've done SOMETHING to prevent it -and like I said I have had several people walk away when they realised the "pet" they were asking for would be endorsed or non active, so it does work for some. Some being better than none in my view.