I was also told by a solicitor that it will stand up.. mixed messages but we'll see what happens.

Thanks for the further advise regarding breeding my two together, I have no intention of breeding for at least two years anyway, I take advise from my best friend who is a vet and she has recommended I wait until my girl is over the two year mark before making any decisions.

Spooks, no more criticism.... what area are you in? I had a terrible ordeal with a Miniature Pinscher Breeder approx 2 years ago now. Almost mirroring yours.... Not a part of yorkshire/Lancashire border? i do hope not.  Fake KC pedigree.  I had a complete nightmare. still have a copy of all their details and fake pedigree....

One final point - even if you get the correct registration document for the bitch puppy and there are no endorsements etc, you won't know for a couple of years if she's going to be a suitable match for your boy. On paper she might be fine - but until she's fully mature and passed the relevant health tests you won't know for sure. All dogs have faults, even the champions - as she matures if she develops the same faults as your dog then they're not suitable as mates for each other.

Couldn't agree with you more JG!  Nobody can say that an 8 week old bitch is suitable to mate to a dog.  Nobody can tell how the bitch will develop and in which points she will excel and which she will need a mate to help improve.  Compatible pedigrees is a good start but nothing like the whole picture.

I would never sell a bitch to a novice to mate.  I wouldn't be willing to put her at risk, which is why all my puppies' pedigrees are endorsed.

Spooks I really feel that you have been mislead or have misinterpreted what's been said (as you say this is an area which you have little knowledge) in many areas and would never recommend 'just one litter' from any two dogs before neutering.

And Vets, unless they are involved with breeding themselves, have little knowledge or expertise in suitable dogs for breeding.  Their expertise is in sorting out the mistakes puppy producers.

Spooks, no more criticism.... what area are you in? I had a terrible ordeal with a Miniature Pinscher Breeder approx 2 years ago now. Almost mirroring yours.... Not a part of yorkshire/Lancashire border? i do hope not.  Fake KC pedigree.  I had a complete nightmare. still have a copy of all their details and fake pedigree....

Thanks chip I appreciate this.  I personally am in Yorkshire, however the breeder doesn't live in this or the Lancashire area, so looks like a different one to what you were refferring.

> I approached her saying i had a male of the breed and was looking to get a female whom I'd have one litter of puppies from them then that would be it.
> I'm not planning on becoming a back street breeder for goodness sake!
>

The thing is breeding just one litter is not a good idea as it has no real purpose, and most good breeders would view such an aim as tantamount to Back Street breeding.

On the face of it it seems a harmless thing to do, but in fact the vast majority of litters are bred by people with not enough knowledge who are breeding just one litter.  They lack the experience in homing the pups, lack the depth of experience in the breed to properly support new owners,a nd are also less likely to be able to offer life long support and re-homing service.

It is puppies from such litters that swell the rescue centres, as well as those bred by puppy farmers, but the one off litters according to US statistics where large scale puppy farming is big business, the vast majority of the rescue problem is actually from one off pet litters, and there is no reason to think things are much different in the UK. 

The breeding of a litter should be about improving/maintaining the breed and advancing bloodlines in order to safeguard and pass on the breed to the future.

Breeders are more than happy to welcome and Mentor new owners with an interest in becoming seriously involved with their breed, studying bloodlines, working and/or showing their dogs to compare them against the rest of the breed.  Basically an apprenticeship.

Many exhibitors never go on to become breeders because of the huge responsibility and commitment.

This is why you will find very little sympathy of this forum for anything appearing to be 'casual breeding'.

I hope you see where people who seem abrasive/unsympathetic are coming from.

> take advise from my best friend who is a vet and she has recommended I wait until my girl is over the two year mark before making any decisions.

That may actually be a bit late for a toy breed.  If breeding is appropriate then toy breed owners usually aim for a first litter between 18 months and 2 years (depending on season frequency).

Were you aware that this breed can tend towards silent seasons so breeding them can be a nightmare, and keeping the male and female apart may also prove difficult if there is little evidence of seasons.

I know a lady in this breed and very expensive C sections are common, and puppy survival can be precarious too.

Jeangenie: thats exactly how my friend lost her case. Puppy purchaser acknowledged by email that she knew of breeding endorsement but because the breeder didnt get her signature on a 'contract' she lost the case. It dragged on long enough (KC & Courts) for the owner to have several unregistered litters (which she then was able to register).

Brainless: By the time you add up what 1 litter costs I think very few people (& NOT aimed at you Spooks) will just stop at that. My last litter of 6 'running costs' was £1300. That didnt include whelping box (say £200), Bedding (£50-100) which I already had. Also if you have complications like a cesar the costs will spiral upwards even more.

That may actually be a bit late for a toy breed.  If breeding is appropriate then toy breed owners usually aim for a first litter between 18 months and 2 years (depending on season frequency).

Depends on the breed though -certainly cavaliers is one breed that should never be bred from before the age of 2 ½.

Well thanks for all the advice, i'll leave you all to enjoy the thread it does appear to have created a stir.

Merry Christmas

I have no words of wisdom to offer you spooks as I am not a breeder.

However, if I purchased a dog as KC registered and papers were not forthcoming then I would be furious regardless of contracts that I had entered into re price and stud dog usage.

Surely this is a breach of trading standards? i.e. goods not as advertised.

I do hope you can resolve this.

> Depends on the breed though -certainly cavaliers is one breed that should never be bred from before the age of 2 ½.

Yes but Cavaliers are probably the largest in the Toy group, and have health reasons to leave breeding until later.

Spooks if you can be tough enough I would return the pup. I certainly would not be parting with another £200 unless I received the correct papers so do not even contemplate that for a second, they have already shown themselves to be untrustworthy.

There obviously are major fibs going on here from the breeder, luckily all new owners with the pups parentage details can contact the KC and get the facts themselves as you have, so these little white lies are soon uncovered.

You need to do some serious thinking here and quick, going down the legal route is all well and good and you certainly are entitled to have the papers but in your mind do you think the correct papers will ever come? Do you think that the breeder has just made a mistake in putting the wrong date down and is reluctant to pay to change it and with some legal pushing will get it done, or do you think there may be other litters or maybe even no papers for this pup at all as it may not even be from this litter you know to be registered on the KC? Maybe this is why there is no paperwork as it has aready gone to the legit pups.

Trouble is if all the legal route does is prove you have been stung, then you are only left with the option of anything up to a full or part refund or the return of the pup. A pup with no papers is not what you really want to end up with though is it?

You can't show it or do any 'moralistic' breeding with it.  All you can end up with is perhaps a refund, but with £200 off already that may be seen as enough.

Personally, if I had doubts about who the pup was and where it had come from with a worry about papers and wanting to have what I had paid for, I would return it...........but I am saying that with a business head on and no attachment to the pup, I guess you have to be pretty tough to return a pup you have had for a month. But maybe you can console yourself with the fact that another pup with all the correct paperwork would be loved by you just the same a little later on.  It would also put (if they are) dodgy breeders like this out of business if people would be brave and return the pups.

Truth be told I'm a big softy and probably couldn't do it myself :-( you will obviously have a bond with it, but that is why I couldn't ever take a pup without the papers ready and have to put myself in this predicament.

I hope that legal help will get you the correct papers if the pup is legit, otherwise you lose whichever way you turn, I feel very sorry for you, hope that things work out.

> The poster was obviously angry and i feel wished for everyone to feel sorry for her and kick up a right royal stink, empower her further....
>

Why do I feel that this statement is cynical and unecessary.

Yes but Cavaliers are probably the largest in the Toy group, and have health reasons to leave breeding until later.

My mentor in Papillons has adviced me never to breed from a Pap before 2. They are far smaller.

There are no health tests required for Miniature Pinschers - although I would have thought that Patellar Luxation testing would be a good idea.

Spooks

Now that the stud fee option (and reduction of £200) is no longer valid, if you want to keep your new pup you should pay the full asking price for her.  However, as you also want the papers that were promised you should explain that the money will be paid upon receipt of the full documentation.  If you are worried, you could use an Escrow option with a third party holding the funds and checking the documents to the satisfaction of both parties.  I think that many solicitors offer this type of service.

I think that you, and others, are right to be concerned about the legitimacy of the pedigree in this case.  It could be a simple mistake by the breeder but as it all went so wrong so quickly there could well be a question mark over this litter.   If that is the case, consider whether you are willing to take on a pup with unknown parentage as a breeding prospect.  If there is any possibility this pup is not who you think she is, then it wouldn't be fair to you, or anyone that subsequently buys a pup from you.  Additionally, as the relationship with her breeder has broken down you may well find they put endorsements on her.

If this were anything but a puppy I expect you'd take your 'product' back for a refund and buy elsewhere.  Much harder to do that with a puppy but worth serious consideration though...  Good luck :)

I wonder if the wrong dates are due the bitch having puppies previously...
Maybe the breed club ethics say not to breed more than once a year and their bitch could have given birth few weeks "too early" so they fiddled with the dates thinking new owners would not mind this little "mistake" and would accept the papers as they are...