Hi

I'm after some advice so hope someone can help me..!

I've fallen into a predicament which appears to have been blown out of proportion with regards to obtaining my documentation for my puppy.
I already own a male of the breed who is just 12 months old, I wanted a female to join our family so responded to an advert on Epupz and got chatting to a person who seemed
to be a recognised and reputable breeder.  They asked about my male and his bloodline and after taking a look at his pedigree I was told he has exceptional lines for this breed.  We came to an arrangement whereby I would get £200 knocked off the price of the puppy I wanted if the breeder was able to use my male dog as stud to one of their bitches.

So in early November I purchased a puppy from someone I believed to be a reputable breeder.  I walked away with the usual 'puppy pack' and expected my KC documentation to
be delivered in the post in the following weeks as promised.

I've still not received the papers so have emailed the breeder on several occasions asking where they are. At first I was told that there had been some discrepancies with the name that had been chosen which had delayed the process.  After more time waiting and still no papers I again contacted the breeder, this time I was told the KC had made a mistake with the DOB so there was another delay.
More time passed by and still no papers, I emailed the breeder on two more occasions but received no reply.  Today, now losing patience, I telephoned to find out what was going on, again I was told that the KC had messed up on the DOB and had put the puppy down as being born two weeks after her birth date, the breeder told me that they had contacted the KC in attempt to get this amended, however the KC had said that it would cost £60 to do this.  The breeder, telling me that she argued this out with the KC told me they eventually said that they would lower this price to £40 as it was their mistake.  The breeder asked me if I would be bothered about the two weeks difference as if not they would just forward the papers on to me as they were.  I was suspicious that the KC would actually charge someone for 'their' mistake so told the breeder I would get back to them after discussing it with my husband.
I immediately phoned the KC who told me that it would only cost £10 to amend the information, but did say that if it was their error then they would do this free of charge.  The lady I spoke to at the KC was able to tell me that the breeder had registered the litter online so therefore they personally had entered all the information including the DOB, the KC would not enter any information themselves but print off what was already entered by the breeder.

I telephoned the breeder back who got uppity saying the KC never gave this information to them, they also said that they had more dealings with the KC so implied they knew better than me regarding this situation.
The breeder said that no doubt I was now feeling insecure about my puppy not having papers, but on the other hand they were now feeling insecure that I would not fulfill my end of the deal with regards to my dog being used for stud.  I tried to assure the breeder that this was not a problem - I simply want my papers for the puppy I bought.  For some reason the breeder hung up on me and would not answer the phone when I tried calling back. 

I've now received an email from them stating that they no longer wish to use my dog as stud, so as their puppies sell for £600 if I send on the extra £200 then they will send me the papers.  They also state that they sell 'pets' for £400 so if I don't want to pay the extra £200 they'll just leave it at that and I don't get the papers.

So...! obviously I'm not happy and if necessary will seek legal on this and will be quite prepared to name and shame this breeder. However I don't particularly want to go down this route and feel that the whole situation has been blown out of proportion (for reasons which I'm not sure of?!) All I want is the papers for my pup, so my question is where do I go from here.. can anyone offer any advise?

Thanks for reading :o)

It's never a good idea to enter into a breeding arrangement with people that you don't know.  Have you got anything in writing?  Otherwise it's your word against theirs. 
What does your sales contact say for the puppy?

Also for anyone else buying a puppy, never take a puppy without the correct paperwork or a signed letter from the breeder saying it will follow. 

I have all the arrangement in writing via email which is good enough.
I also researched the breeder before going ahead, so thanks for the reply, but really not the response I was looking for after spending half hour
typing out my predicament!
And just to add I have a screen shot of the original advert placed on Epupz stating the pups would be full pedigree and KC registered.
Could someone else please help?

Have you spoken to the Citizens Advice people? Or Trading Standards? I would speak to those people first before taking it any further.

Hi LindyLou

That's my first port of call tomorrow, hopefully they'll be able to resolve it for me.

Thanks

Definitely speak to trading standards. Is the breeder a member of the Accredited Breeder Scheme? If so you should write (not phone) them, and place all the facts before them as they will follow it up.

Hi Spooks

What a palavar!   But I'm going to throw another spoke in your wheel I'm afraid - does your boy have endorsements on his registration - in other words - is his registration with the KC marked "progeny not for registration?

If so, only the breeder of your boy can lift this restriction!

I would add that this does not mean that the breeder of your boy is a bad breeder - on the contrary - most good breeders automatically put this restriction on all registered pups and take it off on the application of the new owner if the pup turns out to be an exceptional example of the breed and has passed all the necessary health tests appertaining to that breed - ie hip/elbow scoring - eye testing - pra - baer testing - depending upon the breed.

Hope you can get things sorted out.

I'd personally either pay the £200 and not let them use your dog....would you want them too after all this???? I'm guessing not.  Or if you want KC return the dog/bitch (i know that would be hard) and demand your money back.... If you go to court i@m guessing these would be the results anyhow....

KC would not do anything, its one word against the other and i am not sure emails would count as they can be edited (not that you would, but it can be argued).  Court would cost you initially in money and time and the outcome could not be guaranteed.... If they move in favour of the breeder then it would be even more money paid out.  They could say you reneged on your part of the breeding terms (even if you havent).

If you cannot trust breeder....then how do you know you can trust the pedigree.

Call the breeders bluff.... tell them if they wont provide KC then you wish to bring dog/bitch back for refund.... I bet they wont be happy 3 days before Christmas....

I am sorry to hear about your situation..I wish you all the best

Hi Lokis mum

I've looked at the registration document for my male and he doesn't appear to have this on there (lol does this mean they were a bad breeder - well I got his papers so thats one plus in their favour!)

Thanks for the message!

Hi Chip

I've already thought about saying i'll return the pup, I don't want to do this, and I know after speaking with the KC that she *is* registered, the only descrepancy appears to be that she wasn't born from the litter I originally thought I was getting..  in truth this makes no difference to me, I just want her papers and her registered in my name as it should be.

I'll see what Trading Standards come up with tomorrow, thanks for your reply.

in truth this makes no difference to me, I just want her papers and her registered in my name as it should be.
Do you plan to breed from her?  If you do , then it should matter that you can be sure of her history as you now aren't sure of her breeder.......

That was a point i was trying to make too Westcoast.... if you cant trust the breeder and she has already lied as to Pedigree once.... then how can you trust this pedigree???  If you wish to breed to your's then you need to know the pedigree inside and out.... I know its hard once you have the attachment to your dog, but logically you need to know her true lines and compatibility.... how could you trust the breeder?

I dont want to throw a spanner in the works and i do hope they get there just deserts!!!

WestCoast are you just out for an argument this evening?!

I want the papers of my puppy that I purchased as a pedigree KC registered dog, this is the bottom line.
Please if you don't have anything to help my situation then could I ask that you leave be? I've had enough for one day!

Sorry i'm adding to this now.

It obviously does matter to me otherwise I would have just accepted the breeders offer when they asked if I just wanted the papers as they are with the DOB as it is currently
stated.  I refused this as want the correct date on there.

I actually asked the KC about this - they just said that they have to trust the breeder - so if the KC are willing to just trust whomever to breed whatever dog then what is the point of them anyway?
I was planning on having one litter from my girl then getting her and him both to the vet.  This has annoyed me as this obviously has thrown a spanner in the works..

WestCoast are you just out for an argument this evening?!
Not at all.  My comments are aimed to help your situation and show a different way to the way you appear to be thinking. 

You paid a reduced price to allow the breeder to use your dog.  For whatever reason, the breeder now doesn't want to use your dog.  So as I see it, you now need to pay the full purchase price for your bitch. 

My point is though, what is the point of getting papers with the wrong birth date?  As you don't appear to trust the breeder, if the birth date isn't factual, do you trust the rest of the details?  If you just want her as a pet, then perhaps it doesn't matter too much.  But if you're planning to breed from her, then knowing what's behind her is extremely important.

But if all that matters to you is to get fictional papers for a bitch that you paid a reduced rate, then feel free........  There is more to breeding quality puppies than just mating a dog and bitch of the same breed together *she says quietly and calmly*.

Sorry Spooks that you are feeling upset - Westcoast is not out for an argument, as you put it - she is just warning you of the problems that you could be about to encounter!

It would seem as if the breeder of your new puppy is not as honest as she would purport to be - and believe me, if you are contemplating embarking upon the perilous slopes of breeding, you really DO need honest breeders - who will be absolutely honest with you and tell you the absolute truth - warts and all!

What sets alarm bells ringing with me is that on hearing about your boy's pedigree but without seeing him, they want to use him for stud!!!   Hello!!

I've seen two puppies, from the same litter - but whilst one was absolutely wonderful and copy-book breed standard - the other - with an absolutely adorable temperament - was completely way off breed standard!   And you should always breed to breed standard and use a bitch/stud who will complement the good points on your dog and provide strengths to improve upon any weaknesses that your dog might have.   It really isnt just a case of putting two dogs whose pedigrees complement the other together!

There is much much more detail to this than I have typed out, I typed out the basics of the situation to get advice on where to go from here and I guess also to get a reaction from other breeders to see which way they would swing on this... it appears kind of split at the moment.

I'm not daft, I know that you just cant put one dog with another and get a perfect litter.. and i'm certainly not about to embark on a new hobby of dog breeding as this doesn't interest me at all.

The breeder did meet my boy, so it wasn't a blind agreement.

There is now water under the bridge and obviously animocity between yourself and the breeder.... I am not sure what the solution would be....

I personally wouldn't want anything to do with them.... If you do not wish to breed and do not wish to return the girl then, maybe you could be happy with a KC (even if you havent got the papers) girl that was £200 under the usual asking price...  Not ideal i appreciate. 

But the breeder does not appear to have been straight with you about the puppy you have purchased :(

So sad!

or do you think its ok for breeders to rip people off?
Of course not.  But you paid £200 to allow your dog to be used.  That isn't going to happen now, so you need to pay the remainder of the money for your bitch.

My concern is not the papers or the money, but that with no knowledge you are planning to mate a bitch who's breeder you don't trust, to your dog and produce a litter of puppies to sell to families ...........

Then why are you planning to do just that?  Everyone here is trying to give you the benefit of their experience.

I'm not planning on doing that?! you only assume that i'm doing that?

My concern is not the papers or the money, but that with no knowledge you are planning to mate a bitch who's breeder you don't trust, to your dog and produce a litter of puppies to sell to families ...........

Ahh there it is, thats whats bothering you isn't it, sorry you are wrong, i'm not planning on selling anything.

I was planning on having one litter from my girl then getting her and him both to the vet.
I'm not assuming anything.  It's what you said.  I had a 'feeling' that was your intention when you first posted, which is why I replied as I did and asked questions. :)

Spooks you need to sleep on this..... What westcoast and myself are trying to say is..... The breeder is obviously not being honest and therefore not trustworthy.... the papers therefore cannot be trusted, pedigree nor KC.  We truly are trying to advise you for the good....not criticize.  But when the issue is so emotive sometimes its hard to see what we are trying to say....

Sleep on this and read this post in the morning, maybe it will help.

I'd also be concerned with regard to health testing, if of course it is a breed that should have health tests and so on.
If this particular breeder can't be trusted with birth dates, then the same could be said of health tests (if applicable of course).

Paper hanging at best.

Of course not.  But you paid £200 to allow your dog to be used.  That isn't going to happen now, so you need to pay the remainder of the money for your bitch.

Are you a breeder Westcoast?

I formed an agreement with someone, this is a contract, I haven't broken the contract the breeder has.  So why is this my fault?

I'm sorry for the predicament that you are in Spooks - and I can only tell you that in 40 years of breeding, I have NEVER known the KC to make an error on dates of birth - names, yes - and in one case, I received registration papers for a completely different breed of puppies along with my own puppies' registration papers.

There used to be long delays in obtaining the KC registration papers, but over the last 12 years, I've not experienced such delays.   However, unscrupulous breeders will often blame the KC for "errors" and delays in producing documents when such errors and delays are not of the KC's making.

Sadly, I think you have experienced such a breeder.

We are trying to steer you away from such errors/breeders.  You would appear to be an inexperienced owner - otherwise you would have approached the breed registration council for your preferred breed/KC itself or Champdogs Breeders section for a breeder who breeds to approved standard rather than relying upon Epupz which would not be my preferred advertising forum had I got a litter of pups that I wished to sell.

I'm not assuming anything.  It's what you said.  I had a 'feeling' that was your intention when you first posted, which is why I replied as I did and asked questions

But i never said anything about selling them did I? you assumed it.

Is it a breed that has health test certificates Spooks?

We are trying to steer you away from such errors/breeders.  You would appear to be an inexperienced owner - otherwise you would have approached the breed registration council for your preferred breed/KC itself or Champdogs Breeders section for a breeder who breeds to approved standard rather than relying upon Epupz which would not be my preferred advertising forum had I got a litter of pups that I wished to sell.

Sorry Lokis mum - Like I stated previously I didn't list out every single detail just the outline of the situation.  I didn't just rely on Epupz the advert was on there but I researched the breeder after seeing it.

I do appreciate all that you are trying to say, despite this person appearing to be a reputable breeder it appears that there are some issues, however I feel that coming on this forum has done nothing but get your backs up, i'm sorry that this is the reaction that my search of help has achieved.

I'll sign off now and will proceed to seek the answer through Trading Standards.

Thanks

If you don't want to answer me, then perhaps you would please consider my question without a response, for your dog's sake.
If the breed has health test certs, please check their authenticity.

"What matters is me getting the correct information for the puppy I paid for, is that such a bad thing Westcoast? or do you think its ok for breeders to rip people off?"

Spooks - from what I've read from all your posts, I don't think you can ever be sure that you are actually going to get the correct information for the puppy that you have brought home from this breeder. And if you can't be sure just "who" she actually is, you can never make an informed decision about breeding on from her. That is what people are trying to say to you.

Sadly, I don't think we have given Spooks any information that she wanted to hear .....she's not answering the most important questions and is ignoring the basic information that has been given to her :(

I would just forget it. Enjoy  your new pet and forget about the papers and the stud.  You don't want a pet used at stud anyway and now you know their not the type to be mixing with it may be a lucky escape. 

There was a verbal contract - which may be a written contract if the OP has copies of emails etc.
One side of the contract has reneged, leaving OP in a less than favourable situation than would have been if both sides had continued the aggreement, therefore OP has legal right to pursue it.

Right or wrong, regardless of the dogs involved, this is the bottom issue. If the OP wants to pursue it then that's up to them. Purchase of a new dog from this third party was dependent on the terms of the contract. The third party withdrew from the original terms, leaving the OP in a less favourable situation with regards the new dog, than if the original terms had been followed through. I am no expert in law but that's very plain to me.... If one takes out the emotions and feelings then those are the bare facts.

What would you expect the poster  to ask the law to do?  What would the achieve? You can not force someone now to use a dog at stud.   Although it is clear these are not the persons you would want to be associated with if the poster wants the papers which could and sound suspicious anyway arrange to call at the house hand over the 200 and get the papers.

What lesser situation is she really in?   The main thing it seems is she wants the kc doc.  Sort that out somehow but she would need to pay the extra even seekingblegal advice would have the same answer.   To me it is a lesson learned.  

No disrespect but third party ??? Who
is the 3rd party there is no third party. What is the bottom issue?
How would you describe the OP unfavorable position? At thisoment financially she is not which you need to really be in to "claim" anthing.   

That is why we gave to look at the facts

The purchase of the puppy was not dependant on any agreement about the stud as the OP was buying a puppy the discount/stud agreement was in sb addition
Just in addition.

Please excuse any typing errors usingy phone and wee keys and poor tired eyes don'tiz.

Unfortunately EPUPZ is not the best site to go on for "reputable" breeders in my opinion.  Though there again maybe I'm just lucky that my Spanish and Pom's sell by word of mouth so very rarely need to advertise and I wdn't advertise on that site anyway.

> I wdn't advertise on that site anyway.

Then potential buyers have no choice but to buy from less good breeders.

Have never actually advertised a litter with them, but most of our breeders have a listing under the breeders section.

To the original poster.

It seems that you and some posters here have got off on the wrong tack with misunderstanding etc.

Lets get back to your situation.

Occasionally paperwork is not available because of issues over choice of name, and a new choice having to be submitted checked etc.

Re the DOB issue, I suppose anyone can make a typing error when inputting the information, and the breeder would be charged and admin fee for changing the DOB's on the litter.

In the past this was less likely to happen as the date of mating (confiormed by the stud dog owner) and the date of birth have to coincide, and a litter born over a week either side of the due date ought to arouse questions, if the mating date is also out then it may well have been an attempt to deceive the KC, but if the mating dates are right but the whelping date is two weeks out it was probably a typing error.

If the breeder is really innocent then I can understand them getting a bit miffed when their honesty is questioned, but they at the same time should understand your point of view.

You were asked if the breeder was a member of the Accredited Breeder scheme as breeders on this scheme have to adhere to additional rules, like health testing *which any decent breeder would be doing on or off the scheme but is required on the ABS).  The kennel club now list breeders on the ABS for each breed.  You can also see the requirements.  If the breeder is a member and they have not dealt with you in accordance with the rules you can report them to the KC for this in writing.  You should have been given a puppy wallet with a breeder feedback form if they are ABS breeders.

Re the issue of using your dog at stud, as a breeder I cannot understand this being part of a money off issue with the purchase price of the pup, nothing dishonest but an unwise move as of course you could easily renege on the deal, she may not have a suitable bitch at the time (bitches can get pyometra and no longer be able to breed). 

If I had seen your dog and admired him, I and most people here would have said so and asked if I might use him and pay the going rate as a stud fee once he had sired a litter (assuming he is an unproven dog), he would of course need all his BVA/KC health tests carried out (the basics of Hip scoring and eye testing should be done for most breeds).  Of course the males owner would be risking paying out for health tests and the bitch owner changing their mind or their dog not performing, so no stud fee at the end.

Back to this puppy.  It is not wise to fall out with the breeder as when the registration documents are forthcoming they may well have endorsements preventing any offspring being KC registered, and the breeder would have to be willing to lift them at a later date if appropriate, but if endorsements are in place then you should have signed something at the time of purchase.

If the litter are advertised as KC registered then you have a case with trading standards.  Others have suggested forgetting ti, but for me there would e a principle at stake of not allowing unscrupulous breeders that give honest breeders a bad name, getting away with cheating people.

I'm not sure....there are two sides to every story and on this site we sometimes only hear one.  The poster was obviously angry and i feel wished for everyone to feel sorry for her and kick up a right royal stink, empower her further....

Unfortunately we are all to honest, caring and clued up for this..... The poster was angry.... She bought a KC girl at a
discounted price from a breeder who could be honest, accredited and looking out for her dogs and the breeding of her bitches.  The breeder could have made a few mistakes and has caused a waiting period with the KC. It is right that the cost of this error should not lay at the new owner door but at her/his own door.  The poster was very impatient with the answers she received... Say; and this is pure conjecture the breeding rights had been put into question... I'm sure as a breeder this would have worried her, re her rights and the rights of her bitch puppy's future.  I would do the same either request the girl pup back or refuse the KC until full payment received... and would totally forget the breeding rights issue... I would also Endorse the KC.

I am not saying the above is right or that is what has happened, but that there are always two sides.  As there is no written contract i don't feel either side has a leg to stand on.   If you look at it pay the £200 and get the KC... that is what will prob happen at the courts anyhow as it is not unreasonable....why should she be allowed to keep the KC girl for £200 less than the actual cost for that breed??? You cannot enforce the breeding terms...

I think the Poster wished us all to agree to this... and we didn't.  She already lied in saying she had no intent to breed, when on earlier post she said she was going to breed but this had put a spanner in the works.  I agree we all have rights,  but not for a cheap as chips bitch that is obviously going to be used for breeding without proper checks be it being the correct pedigree or health checks.

I would not want a bitch from a breeder i could not trust... I would insist on returning before i became to attached and look into finding the right girl for my boy, doing proper and thorough research. 

After all we all need the help of our dogs breeders as they have all the relevant information about our dogs that we could not second guess ourselves.

It really is s shame but people come on here for opinions... they get them..... and they should take on board good and bad criticism.  Not be expecting everyone to agree..... I learn't that the hard way on here.  I dont always agree with what is being said, but it is always in the interest of poster and dogs alike.

    > I wdn't advertise on that site anyway.

Then potential buyers have no choice but to buy from less good breeders.

But that is saying potential buyers have got NOWHERE else to go! Of course they have. If you Google "pedigree puppies uk" ChampDogs comes up BEFORE the other site for instance. Yes there are the odd good breeder on that site, but personally I would never, ever consider placing any kind of advert on there, rubbing shoulders with the back yard breeders. I know of a few people whose name has become mud once they have advertised on there, in people's views they have instantly become puppy farmers.

> If the litter are advertised as KC registered then you have a case with trading standards.&nbsp; Others have suggested forgetting ti, but for me there would e a principle at stake of not allowing unscrupulous breeders that give honest breeders a bad name, getting away with cheating people. <IMG class=qButton title="Quote selected text" height=10 alt="Quote selected text" src="/images/mi_quote.gif" width=20>

Hi Spooks,

I absolutely echo the wise words from Barbara, but also wanted to wish you the very best of luck with this as I can see from your posts how utterly frustrating this must be for you. On that note (of frstration) I'd urge you (as Brainless has) to try to avoid falling out with this breeder til' the papers are in your hand... and Crivvens I know it'll take the patience of a saint (given their behaviour) to do that but it will be worth it :-) This time of year can be a bit stressy anyway so probably not condusive to negotiations...
   I do hope you stick with this thread, and also keep us up-dated as we are all rooting for you. :-)
Please don't get frustrated at some of the replies they are all borne of good intention for you Im quite sure, and also You will find that our experienced Forum members will often post replies that contain advice/info that you may think is not relevant to you but this tends to be because these members know (of old) that these type of topics often get thrown up in Google searches by other folk looking for info/advice on this or a similar subject and so they cover all bases this is the 'infomation exchange' ethos of the site. <- hope that makes sense?

once again, best of luck with this hang on in there! and I'm passing wine and choccies through the screen for medicinal calming purposes only you understand!! ;-)

> in people's views they have instantly become puppy farmers.

Not if adverts are worded wisely.

Unfortunately it is a site that comes up readily for those looking for puppies, and the only way for Joe Public to know there is something else out there rather than the mass produced puppies is to clearly see the difference when health testing, etc are mentioned, good breeders need to be easily found anywhere potential owners are likely to look.

Actually type in 'puppies for sale' and that is the first site you get.  Type in simply puppies, and guess what first site that comes up.

I know all too many nice people who have had at least their first dog from bad sources and have also had grateful new owners who didn't realise that real breeders cared so much.

The general opinion out there is that people only breed for money and if you want a puppy they are a necessary evil.

That is always the way Margot,   I know we often are tough and often told off for being tough :-) BUT that is life and quite often people have to take a little responsibility.

At the end of the day the OP is actually perhaps "financially" better off out the two, a puppy for £400 and has not had to provide the use of her pet dog for the stud. 

> She already lied in saying she had no intent to breed, when on earlier post she said she was going to breed but this had put a spanner in the works.&nbsp; I agree we all have rights,&nbsp; but not for a cheap as chips bitch that is obviously going to be used for breeding without proper checks be it being the correct pedigree or health checks.
>
>

I have to say, I feel I must in the interest of fairness take issue with this commentary!! Those that know and have read my posts over the years will I hope remember that I am most certainly not one of the 'Bun fight Brigade' so I am loathed to perpetuate this tangent the thread has taken, the OP topic is the obtaining of KC papers, whilst it is pertinent to advise on all aspects of a posters sitaution as they have given it... I think it is wholly unfair to re-direct the thread to mud slinging on a tangent and especiallly any conjecture rather than fact on that tangent!.
    I don't believe based on what has been written that it is 'obvious' (as Chip says) that the OP will breed from her Bitch, I cannot see where that assumption has come from in a factual basis? The only facts (presented) that I see is that it was suggested to the OP that her dog was deemed suitable to stud by the Breeder. How someone can have the audacity to say this then means the OP is Liar regards breeding her Bitch I'm utterly lost to explain or understand!!

I think it is obvious to all that the OP is rattled and who wouldn't be going through the frustration of trying to sort out this palava. Therefore I can't see that comments such as the one I have highlighted are helpful in any way shape or form to the OP, which according to the TOS of this forum is what we members ought to be doing.....
:-(   There are many lessons to be learnt in this Thread so lets not detract from those important issues by thoughtless comments...

I actually asked the KC about this - they just said that they have to trust the breeder - so if the KC are willing to just trust whomever to breed whatever dog then what is the point of them anyway?
I was planning on having one litter from my girl then getting her and him both to the vet.  This has annoyed me as this obviously has thrown a spanner in the works..

From spooks own words..... Please read the post!!!

I was stating that to breed from a girl you do not know the correct background, without the breeders knowledge would be a stupid and inappropriate thing to do for the bitch involved.... If she cannot trust the breeder....why breed.

I am sorry if Huskygal you do not like my words... but unlike you i would not advocate her getting a bitch £200 cheaper just to breed with her KC boy not knowing if her pedigree was legitimate, thus putting dog and future owners in jeopardy.... Irresponsible breeding!!!

She is entitled to be peeved and i hope she does get her KC papers.... but she does wish to breed without knowning anything about the new girls lines

To be totally honest I am very suprised that it was not part of the agreement that the papers of your puppy would be held onto by the breeder until the dog had been used at stud anyway. I think that would be the only way to do things in these circumstances as she has basically paid a stud fee and has no other way to guarantee getting this mating. I don't honestly see the rush for the papers, it is christmas and everybody is busy. Surely it could have waited a while as the breeder would have been in contact for her stud soon enough ??  I would have been more then happy to wait as long as it took to get the correct papers personally. 

Nowhere has Husky girl advocated the OP breeding from this bitch even if the papers are eventually obtained.
However I  think this thread is not addressing the issue and is descending into she wrote, I read misunderstanding.
Please keep to the original topic.

Blimey..! and I thought the business I am in was a volatile one!

I haven't lied about anything!! I was honest with you guys as I was honest with the breeder when I originally contacted them, I approached her saying i had a male of the breed and was looking to get a female whom I'd have one litter of puppies from them then that would be it.
I'm not planning on becoming a back street breeder for goodness sake!

Prior to looking on Epupz I had seen reference to this particular breeder from already having a male of the breed, the UK club for the breed features this breeder. My own male has this breeders bloodline, which brings me onto another major detail of this situation that I haven't previously mentioned (as I never thought I'd be accused in the way I have!)
I approached the breeder about a female puppy, I explained I had a male whom I wanted to breed with the female in the correct time and then that would be it.  The breeder naturally wanted to know about my male and asked if I could forward on his pedigree to look at.  I forwarded it on as requested.  It is then that the breeder became interested in using him to stud with one of her bitches as she saw that he carried a bloodline from their original breeding that they had lost, the breeder was very keen to get this bloodline back and so therefore made the suggestion of the £200 discount for her female.  I was quite prepared to pay full price for her. I asked if it would be okay to breed my boy with the female pup she had in terms of their own backgrounds/breeding (*for the one litter!*) She said they would be a good match.

I'm not saying I know everything; I'm trying to explain that I didn't just ring up the first ad on Epupz and make a dodgy deal.  I've been messed around in a area of which I don't have much expertise (although I'm bloody learning fast!) I came on here to seek advice from people who do have that knowledge.  I didn't come on here to have my nose rubbed in my dilemma (you should have done this and that and lesson learned is rather annoying!)

BTW someone mentioned me not having a contract - either you assumed this or did not read my previous posts - I have all the agreement in writing via email - which will stand up in court as a legal agreement - yes I have checked!

Not everyone has been harsh with me, so to those of you who haven't then I thank you.  I am upset - naturally - I had spent a long time in searching for what I thought was the right puppy for my boy, now I'm left in a situation where I've had the pup since the beginning of November, I love her to bits, she has a wonderful home here with me - I don't want to give her up.

I'm not a person to let things go however, and I will, one way or another get what is rightfully mine, even if it means taking legal action.  I will also make sure that I relay this situation naming the breeder by as many means as possible, warning others not to buy from them.

Ironically I did put a friend in touch with them as they wanted a puppy, they had found a breeder local to them and wanted to know if they were any good.  My breeder said not and I have this in writing too, which i'm sure the other breeder will be interested to see.

The breed is Miniature Pinscher - anyone here who knows about this breed them please PM me and i'll be happy to give more information if you can offer further constructive advise.

Spooks

>I have all the agreement in writing via email - which will stand up in court as a legal agreement - yes I have checked!

I was told (via solicitor) that unless a contract is signed (as per the KC requirement about endorsements) then it's easy to overturn them, so emails wouldn't stand up. Just a thought.

One final point - even if you get the correct registration document for the bitch puppy and there are no endorsements etc, you won't know for a couple of years if she's going to be a suitable match for your boy. On paper she might be fine - but until she's fully mature and passed the relevant health tests you won't know for sure. All dogs have faults, even the champions - as she matures if she develops the same faults as your dog then they're not suitable as mates for each other.