Hi everyone,

I was at the vets the other day, & I mentioned giving raw bones to my dogs & she was mortified. She said she's seen so many problems with dogs on the BARF diet. I asked her why do so many people recommend it then, & her answer was 'Well they've probably not opened up so many dogs & seen what damage it can do'.

My dogs are still being fed raw but I just wanted to know your opinions, & if you've come across this before?

Thanks :-)

Bone impaction that requires surgery is certainly a fact, even in dogs fed raw bones; it seems to be about as common as dogs needing surgery to remove other foreign bodies from their bowels.

Thanks Jeangenie. Do you feed raw?

the thoughts of it do worry me, but the barf suits my boys... the minute theyre off colour they are at the vets as i always suspect bone injuries..... nothing yet tho... touch wood

> I just wanted to know your opinions, & if you've come across this before

I'm sure my vet would have a fit if I said I was feeding my dog bones.

I feed raw tripe and occasionally other raw meats/offal but I don't & wont feed bones. My dog is a very heavy chewer and I worry he wil break teeth on bones or swallow large chunks, or do himself damage on shards of bone etc...
I know people say that 'in the wild' dogs would eat bones, but they would also be taking in lots of other stuff with it like fur/skin that may serve to protect against injury from bone. OR that may just be a crazy notion of mine, but anyway, I do not want to risk my dogs health for the sake of a bone when he is perfectly healthy without them in his diet :)

Our usual vet retired last month after more than 45 years in practice.  I discussed raw feeding with him when we joined the practice and he is in favour of it as long as it's done correctly.  Then again, he was in practice long enough to remember a time when the vast majority of dogs weren't fed on commercial complete diets and lived happily on table scraps.  I know my OH's family's dogs all lived to 15+ years of age and got a diet based on cheap tinned meats plus whatever kitchen scraps were available.

Another young vet in the practice is also in favour of raw feeding and we had a long conversation about it on our first meeting.  He is of the opinion that commercial diets have the potential to create as many issues (if not more) than raw feeding and it's all about being well informed and weighing up the pros and cons for your pet and your circumstances.  There are risks attached to everything in life.  Yes, my dogs could break teeth, suffer impaction or any number of possible problems from feeding raw but we have had no such effects so far (2 dogs fed raw for 4 years or so).  However, one of them has a skin complaint that is exacerbated by several very common ingredients in commerical dry foods and, depending on which of the theories you believe, my breeds may be at an increased risk of bloat from dry completes. So for us, for the  moment at least, the pros of raw outweigh the cons.

I have seen several dogs needing opened up with impactions, also seen many getting sedated and enemas performed as it backs up in colon, faeces full of bone fragments, now theres a smell you dont want to experience! Have also seen several dogs with growth disorders as a result on being fed inappropriate diets, but this is usually when fed wrong, like the maltese with bowed legs who had been fed on nothing but raw chicken since a small pup, and the DDB with repeated fractures and stunted growth only being fed raw mince and tripe, he ended up being a rescue case, and my friend rehomed him.

my vet once mentioned that my 12 yr old dog had the teeth of a 3yr old. i told him i give her raw bones, he seemed ok about it. then another time i mentioned feeding raw completely, he was horrified i thought i was going to be booted out the surgery!

I have seen several dogs needing opened up with impactions, also seen many getting sedated and enemas performed as it backs up in colon, faeces full of bone fragments
I wonder how many of these are cooked bones rather than raw feeding?

I suspect that dentals are done more routinely these days as processed foods don't seem to be very good for cleaning teeth.  Just about every per owner around here subjects their dog to a GA every other year to have their teeth cleaned. :(

I had a vet at my previous practice who was dead set against BARF and the way he spoke to me about it was not very nice. Really gave me a hard time.

The vets at my new practice are lovely and said if done right they don't have an issue with it. Its when people don;t know what they are doing and haven't done any homework is when it can lead to big problems.

There is always a risk element in raw feeding, but there is always a down side to anything we do these days..

My vets is in favour of the way I feed my dogs. We have a skin specialist at our surgery who refers clients to a lady that taught me all about BARF so she can guide people into it correctly.  I told him once what they get on average a week and he thought they were fed better than most people were! I used to work in a vets and saw one bone impact problem in 3 years but plenty of smelly & itchy dogs that IMO if had been fed a more natural diet would have not suffered so badly. 

There are risks with everything, the biggest problem I have is dropping a rec bone on my foot which I seem to do quite often and almost vomitting when I have to portion up whole cow liver and other organs (yuck!)

As already said, many vets do not agree in giving bones, quite rightly too, cooked bones I can fully understand, when you look at something like let's say a leg of lamb how the cooked bone splinters into sharp needles of course  that should not be given to a dog, there is a risk. But BARF is about uncooked, fresh meats etc, full of protein. When it comes to things like their favourite chicken wings which obviously have bones, uncooked they are plyable, what we should remember is that dogs have no problem in dispatching and eating raw birds themselves if given the chance, feathers and all, it is what they would be doing anyway and after 30 years never yet has a chicken wing caused a problem.

Knuckle bones I have always found ok though, they don't tend to splinter and are great for a dogs teeth.

You do not have to feed bones to feed raw.  They can either be put through a mincer, or, you can buy frozen meats that contain ground bone. You can also supplement with calcium if you don't want any kind of bone whatsover.

I don't feed raw, but I don't see any reason why vets should be dead against it. My vet also told me of numerous cases where raw bones have caused major problems.  He also breeds and tells any puppy buyer that if they choose to feed raw and choose to feed bones than at *any* point there appears to be a problem to get the dog to a vet ASAP.   Vets should educate their clients who want to feed raw so their dogs get a well balanced diet.   And if they want to recommend not feed bones, fine and dandy.  Again, it does not mean you cannot feed raw!

Our vet is the same she was horrified when i said i wanted to feed 1 of our females this as she is sensitive to most dry foods, she did however say to mince the bones up, she did say she had a lab in with bones in his intestines and he had been very lucky.

>but I don't & wont feed bones.

Hi Mastifflover,

Was just wondering how you keep his teeth clean.

I can't think of another healthy way other than raw bones for oral hygiene in dogs. The thought of brushing their teeth fills me with horror

>The thought of brushing their teeth fills me with horror

Why is that? No different to brushing your children's teeth before they're old enough to do it themselves.

> Was just wondering how you keep his teeth clean.

He chews on rope toys, seems to do the trick :)

My last dog lived to be 14&half years old, he never had any problems with his teeth, never needed any dental work or cleaning at the vets, all he had for keeping them clean was rope toys :)

vets are trained to recommend the food they sell at their practice

dogs didnt originate years ago by eating a dry biscuit , its not natural

my personal opinion is i dont agree with feeding kibble , dogs are carnivores , so therefore should be feed meat , eating a dry biscuit is not natural and also very boring for them

no vets agree with feeding raw , as i dont think they have enough information on the benefits of it

i have fed raw to both my dogs for 3 year with no problems , they both have great teeth and lovely coats and are in good health , they get fed kibble when they go to the dog sitters and come back stinking , greasy coats and dog breathe!
no thanks!

Rope toys chewed and swallowed have resulted in blockages too, same with those Nylabones and gumabones etc, so it is swings and roundabouts too.

> vets are trained to recommend the food they sell at their practice

The food my vet recomends isn't sold at the practice.

Wells - agree completely, but... my vet supports my raw diet choice so they arent all against it, also Robert Burns and Nick Thompson are all for raw.  :-)

> Rope toys chewed and swallowed have resulted in blockages too

Good point Brainless, that is why Buster is never left alone with a rope toy (or any toy for that matter - he's a 'shredder' & then he'll eat the pieces), it doesn't take long before he has pulled some strands off, so I have to be on hand to pick them out of his lips.

> it doesn't take long before he has pulled some strands off, so I have to be on hand to pick them out of his lips.

lol, I have been there - it is like flossing the dogs teeth when bits get stuck.

>No different to brushing your children's teeth before they're old enough to do it themselves

I can't compare brushing a child's teeth to brushing my dogs.... My mum brushes her dogs teeth every night,and it is a battle every single time :( It stresses me out just watching her wrangle with the dog,and she's been doing it for years.It just looks like one big hassle,tossing them a bone is so much healthier and enjoyable for both them and me :-D
Maybe some dogs take to it better than my mum's,but watching her has put me off!

>My mum brushes her dogs teeth every night,and it is a battle every single time

Then she didn't introduce them to it properly originally. :-( I've babysat for small children who were the same - I dread to think what troubles they'll be going through at the dentist when they're older.

My mum brushes her dogs teeth every night,and it is a battle every single time
Bless!  I had no problem brushing and descaling dogs' teeth in the grooming parlour when they'd never had them done before. :)  Still prefer to give raw chicken wings to my own though. :)

My vet is quite happy for me to feed raw as he comments on how well Puds looks considering how bad her hips are. I haven't asked Jo Inglis though as he is one of our vets and has his own brand food for sale in the surgery !

Thank you for the replies. :-)

I can't compare brushing a child's teeth to brushing my dogs.... My mum brushes her dogs teeth every night,and it is a battle every single time  It stresses me out just watching her wrangle with the dog,and she's been doing it for years.It just looks like one big hassle,tossing them a bone is so much healthier and enjoyable for both them and me
Maybe some dogs take to it better than my mum's,but watching her has put me off!
I brush my dogs' teeth, not every day, but a few times a week. It isn't a battle at all... they let me get on with it without problems because they know they get a treat when it's done.
I prefer bones too, but with two not allowed to have them due to allergies and one not beeing bothered about them, I don't have much choice.

I've always wanted the gumption to change my two over to BARF for the longest time, but just never got round to it. 
I definitely think it has it's advantages.
Particularly with the clean teeth issue.
My two do have rope chews from time to time, but they don't last very long, and one particular silly boy (you know who you are Mr) has a habit of swallowing the rope strands which aren't very nice at the other end (and worse could be dangerous to his insides).
So from a very young age I have brushed both my two dogs teeth, and they love it.
In fact it's quite a nice quiet time for us.
Nothing quite like sitting with a Stafford and brushing their teeth :)

TT - where abouts in Oz are you?  We're in the Hunter Valley (NSW) and the vets we see are very enthusiastic about raw feeding.  We go to puppy classes there and part of the last class was on feeding and how to feed raw bones safely and how to be safe with raw meat in the current mini heatwave we're having.  Woolies and Coles both sell chicken frames and necks on the meat counters - the frames still have loads of meat on them.

Our pap puppy  has got a chicken wing and neck for tomorrow - not sure what he'll make of them as the wing is almost as big as his front leg!!

> no vets agree with feeding raw , as i dont think they have enough information on the benefits of it
>

4 vets in the veterinary practice I use - each and every one of them strongly supports raw feeding and only sell the Royal Canin specific dietary foods.  When I took Finneus to see the vet last week he told me (via the vet of course!) that I was being mean not letting him have chicken wings and where's the fun in just a bowl of kibble when you can throw a chicken wing around the patio!  (I think the vet might have been out in the sun a little too long!!)

Just about every per owner around here subjects their dog to a GA every other year to have their teeth cleaned.

Is this the case for most?? That is a sure sign that the diet is not ideal if so.  My dogs are 8, 3 and 19 weeks - never a dental needed for any of them, regularly check teeth to make sure they are ok.  IMO, there is nothing more natural for a dog to eat a raw bone regularly. All mine are fed a raw/natural diet.

> TT - where abouts in Oz are you?  We're in the Hunter Valley (NSW) and the vets we see are very enthusiastic about raw feeding

Hi bettyonthebus, just seen this, sorry!  We're on the Gold Coast.  I've seen all the doggy foodstuffs (including biggish bags of raw bones) in the local supermarkets, very tempting, still a wee bit apprehensive, but definitely getting closer to giving it a try.
Nice to hear that such good information is being handed out where you are (a lovely part of the world I might add!).

are any raw bones ok,or are some safer than others?and would chicken wings work as well as bones for cleaning teeth?

The only bones I dont feed are pork (just don't like them eating pork!) everything else goes, including necks, carcus, wings etc from any bird, lamb, beef, venison, rabbit, duck..  I like variety for my dogs. Not really sure which ones are best as teeth cleaners, all I know is the combo of bones given help keep their teeth in great shape.

oh,okthanks!

Just about every per owner around here subjects their dog to a GA every other year to have their teeth cleaned.

Is this the case for most?? That is a sure sign that the diet is not ideal if so.  My dogs are 8, 3 and 19 weeks - never a dental needed for any of them, regularly check teeth to make sure they are ok.  IMO, there is nothing more natural for a dog to eat a raw bone regularly. All mine are fed a raw/natural diet.

I agree as yet another sweeping statement on here !

I have now fed raw for about 3 years but before that fed kibble and also marrow bones and have never had any problems with the 6 girls I have had apart from the older rescue girl Cassie. She was a tubby Lab that has been throughly spoily rotten and can image the rubbish she had been fed by the size of her waist line ! Her teeth were horrible :-(

I dont feed beef or pork (pork anything for that matter) raw bones, mostly lamb ribs and chicken carcus. I do get the ocassional lamb shank but it doesnt get crunched up as well as the ribs so they get left lying around after ive scrapped the marrow out for them. I find that dogs that are not used to the raw bones (those who have them as an occasional treat or toothbrush )have more problems than a dog that gets them on a regular basis, because thier system isnt used to them and they either regurg or struggle passing a motion.

My vets were not happy with my choice of BARF feeding, but then im not happy with dull coats, sloppy poos, bad gas weepy eyes with the majority of complete foods i have tried. Even with the Royal Canin that 2 out of the 3 are well suited too, the amount of poop is unbelievable. Plus they are less likely to bloat on something thats quickly digested and doesnt swell in the stomach. My paranoia has doubled since masons incident, so im extra vigilant. I do believe that people should research before into this diet, but how many dogs eat toys and get stuff stuck and vets dont disagree with them!

Why do you not feed beef? I don't give my dogs pork in any shape or form, but I do feed beef, in fact it makes up a high proportion of my five dog's diet, chicken makes up the greater part.  I feed beef muscle meat often and small portions of  kidneys and heart once a week I also cook heart to use as treats when training (this is the only cooked meat my dogs get)  Is there a problem in feeding beef that I am not aware of?  Lamb and fish are also fed but in lesser quantities.

I feed beef bones, best minced beef, beef offal and beef tripe, not as much as lamb or chicken but they do have it regularly.   :-)

Beef bones I don't feed, can't really get hold of them too much either tbh, feed beef meat offal etc just prefer lamb and poultry bones.

beef bones are too hard for the dogs to eat, ok as leisure bones but I worry about them breaking their teeth if they chew for too long on them so tend not to give them any.  Chicken and lamb are the best, especially the lamb leg bones, keeps my collies happy for quite some time.  I'm very lucky to have a brilliant butcher, we get all our bones free, he removes all the meat he can but there is always loads left on the bones.  The bigger dogs get the carcass's and the smaller dogs the wings.  You can also  guarantee that there will be a lot of things in the box that are obviously coming to the end of their sbd, breast of lamb, bits of kidney, chunks of beef.  I also have a brilliant oh who doesn't mind standing for hours sorting it all out.