In the last post about feeding raw ,Christine said she does not worm her dogs as the raw diet makes for a hostile enviroment for worms,does anyone have any evidence of this as i have never liked giving my dogs worming tablets when i know they haven,t got worms.

I have stopped giving my bullie wormers as I found none whatever from her since she went on raw.
I do give garlic which is a natural wormer and she was never so well .This bullmastiff has recovered from a thyroid illness and is in A 1 condition again .
I have to add this as I do not want to take responsibility for anyone elses dogs it works for me and I only share my info :) Mari

Hi Mari, why don`t you give us a list of what you think are the pros & cons of the raw food you give your dogs on the *barf again* thread please? I would love to hear them & I think the others would too. :)
Christine, Spain.

Hi Christine ,
I will post later have to do lunch just in for a peep .
Just want to say I have worked out a different way to the book finds it suits me better , lots of compromise . Mari

Hi Tradel, here is a run down on worms & my dogs. They all used to be wormed with drontal plus on a regular basis. I had a litter of pups 19mths ago & their dam was wormed with panacur powder from day 40(?) in whelp. When these pups were roughly3/4 mths old I started feeding them the raw diet, although they had been weaned on to raw & I was in the process of weaning on to dry, a few days later started my adult dogs on it as well. The adult dogs had their last worming tabs just before the change over. The pups had just been fecal tested & were negative. To this day I have seen no evidence of worms in any of my dogs & the 2 pups were tested again about 7/8mths later & still negative & those 2 have never been wormed in their life, never. I don`t know the reason why my lot have no worms, some people feeding their dogs raw have found worms in their dogs but I havn`t. I do give a clove of fresh garlic per dog into the veggie mix they have tho, so who knows? Oviously works for some & not for others! :)
Christine, Spain.

How come foxes are usually riddled with worms when they eat a completely natural diet?!

They have only to 'investigate' poo from another animal and they will be re-infested. Cat poo frequently has tape worm and round worm & if your dogs catch and eat mice they will almost certainly have tape worms. They can be picked up from any dropings, dog, fox, cat or no doubt others and also belive it or not raw meat.
Ja:)kie

Oh I believe you Jackie :). And you can't assume that an adult dog is parasite free because you don't see worms emerging. A faecal examination is better, but even then it has to be repeated several times to be sure because of the worm's life-cycle.

Don't want to offend anyone, least of all Mari or Christine but imo people who don't worm their dogs properly - and there is zilch evidence that garlic works - are doing the rest of us no favours.

Sharon I would be horified if I saw worms or tape worm segments in my dogs stools, would feel I had missed a worming. Used to help my sister with her cattery and not only all, well 999 or of every 1000, cats have fleas but most had tape worm which we could see so I quess they had round worm too. I seem to remember reading somewhere that it is the cat round worm that can cause blindness in children, amazing really when you see how many people have litter trays in their kitchen along with the kids. I am suprised there is not more publicity about it but may be it is easier to complain about dogs, not that I would condone not picking up after your dog but at least they dont do it in other peoples vegetable patch or kid sand pit. Jackie

Ditto Jackie :(. Cats do pick up travellers and I suspect that many people are don't worm their cats often enough. A few years back it seemed that you couldn't turn on the TV or open a newspaper without hearing about ophthalmic toxocara. Its very rare but I've seen about 10 cases and all the child had significant visual loss in the eye. Kids can also get a systemic infection called toxocariasis (or visceral larva migrans) but that is rare too.

Sharon,due to the fact that Babs had a thyroid condition I take no chances with her health . regular checks to make sure she is ok and that includes a check of the bowel movement as well . I have to scrape a bit and put it in a jar and take it with me to vet . Plus some urine.
I told him I dont worm her anymore just stick with the zinc and Garlic . he says if she gets worms her coat will dull and she will lose condition . I know that as well . Trust me Sharon no ones dog is any danger from mine either health ways or nasty . I have not stopped with Berry but I felt Babs had enough to put up with without purging her as well .Especially if not necessary. Vet agreed. Worming is a necessary evil not a vitamin .
Worming has its own risks as well and indeed so has flea remedies .
Sharpei can react to lots of things also so when I feel the time is right and Im sure Berry wont need it I will be doing the same with her.
She has been worm free for ages now It is just becuse she is so young I will carry on for another bit doing it.
When Malachy is six months he will be on full natural diet also .
My findings with raw are good and I like the results .My daughters dogs are in tip top condition as are my brothers and some of the other puppies I bred. I always have a good quality food on hand should I run out of meat but if that happens I still pour the veg over it as I feel they need it for the what is missing in the complete.
My vet feeds raw as he owns cattle and he shoots and hunts ,so he says they have more stamina on raw.
Just my little input :)
However different strokes huh
Mari

We will have to agree to disagree on this one :)

No bother Sharon as I said different strokes :)

Jeanie .
Foxes do not always eat a completly natural diet . They are no longer privy to meat on the bone so to speak as there is less chance of a kill.
They are scavengers and will eat cow dung if they have to [polite]
They are not clean domestic animals and will have fleas maggots and and ticks and god knows what else attached to them .They sleep in the earth and that in itself is a way of getting worms .
Have you ever seen a recent dead fox , what known parasites spiders fleas maggots can be seen crawling through the fur so I dont think the comparison is good .
Best wishes Mari

Sorry about all the mentions of maggots Sharon I know you have a phobia. :)

Forgiven - but please don't do it again :D.

According to my vet, anything that eats raw meat is highly likely to carry worms - especially tapeworm from rabbit. I wouldn't take the chance. But that's just me.

Thought I`d just add that all the meat & fish my dogs eat is human grade quality, it`s from supermarkets/butchers & a recent supplier is a frozen wholesaler who supplies butchers. It`s not from animal food shops. I also understand that if meat has been frozen it kills certain worms in pork. Think that applies to fish as well.
Christine, Spain.

My lot have garlic but I would not trust this to defeat worms. On some of the raw (I refuse to use that vomit word <g>) lists people say because they feed raw they no longer vaccinate or worm their dogs - their choice and something I don't want to risk with mine.

Seeing some of the things they eat when out (and dogs are very opportunist eaters snatching at all sorts of vile things) they will continue to be wormed regularly and as I feel that those of us who vaccinate are supporting those who don't (again my opinion will differ from others) I will continue to vaccinate as I feel this is best for my dogs, and my peace of mind

I also get food from animals slaughtered for human consumtion although I would not consider the lights that I got the other day(along with hearts and livers) exactly for human consumption.

Christine

No, freezing DOESN'T kill the worm larvae/cysts. Pork, especially for human consumpsion, should be thoroughly overcooked to make it safe. Worms are in meat. Full stop. (And I am not a vegetarian. I just know the risks).

I am not deaf so there is no need to shout at me This civilised debate is concerning dogs & worms so I wasn`t talking about humans. I f I can find the link or book where it says about killing worms in pork that affects dogs, by freezing, then I will post it.
Christine, Spain

It is not the worms you find in meat it is the (think they are called cysts) they then develop into worms in the next host.

I feel people who don't worm or protect their dogs against fatal desease are relying on the rest of us to do so. Not only are they putting their own dogs and children at risk they are putting ours at risk too.

Christine, don't get upset, I think the poster was just trying to get their point across, don't expect you feed pork to your dogs anyway and if you feed it to yourself I would hope you cook it properly.

Domestic freezers are not cold enough to freeze food cold enough to kill anything it just preserves the food at the condition it was when it was put to be stored in the freezer. Even fly eggs or young are not killed by the domestic freezer. Anything present when you freeze it will be there when it is thawed and will require proper heating, think they say piping hot on most packaging.

Hi all, heres a couple of links regarding pork & freezing. Still havn`t found the one I was thinking of but these are OK.
http://www.doh.wa.gov/notify/guidelines/trichinosis.htm
http://www.ehendrick.org/healthy/00067290.html
Christine, Spain.

Because lands are poisoned I have trained My bullies to drop anything on command . They dont bother now asThey are fed first thing in the morning and as their walk is afternoon they are not hungry.
Sharpei can not be let off as they dont turn so no danger there .
Jackie I cannot stress enough no ones dogs are going to get worms from mine as they do not have worms. . I trust my vet and have good reason to trust him he has never let me down.
I am no novice and I keep an eye on the situation..I never leave dog poo on the road I always pick up .And as I dont feed the night before a show they dont poo at the show
Also other dogs can not get into my garden and I dont let mine roam
However I am not telling anyone at all to do what I do .I never do I simply share what I have . It is up to the individual to decide whats best for them .
Mari

Sharpei can not be let off as they dont turn so no danger there

Hi Mari

Can you explain that phrase please...looks interesting :-)

Christine, have looked at the sites you listed and they more or less are in line with what I said. The domestic freezer will in optimum conditions reach -5 but unless the ambient temperature, and the way the freezer is filled are optimum and the freezer is not opened at all, it will not remain at that minimum temperature. Mine being in the garage and kitchen never even reach -5 during the summer months. If you buy ready frozen food and every thing else is suitable to keep the temperature at at least -5 for at least 12 days, I think was what was said, then it is probable OK to eat raw meet. Ja:)kie

Hi Jackie, I started feeding mine pork a few mths ago but after reading about freezing killing the worms I buy it frozen with my own theory that a)it would have been frosen at the req. temp & b)for a longer time so it should be safe. Also for some reason frozen tends to be a bit cheaper :) I`ve always picked up after my dogs & when they are out they are always, always on a lead. When we are at home they are loose cos I`m very lucky & have quite a few acres of land that is sealed off from any other dogs & the boarders I have, also have their own seperately fenced off part of the field so I believe I`m not putting any other dogs at risk. I tell the g/kids to wash their hands so often that most of the time they are on the way to do it before I can say it! The way I think is that if my dogs don`t have worms, why should I put toxic chemicals in their body unnecessarily? 2 have been fecal tested twice & come back negative. Thats my logic anyway :)
PS I wasn`t really upset bout the other post Jackie, more like tired & tetchy cos I`m either on here or being kept up late by the other gang who keep me up well past my bedtime chatting :) :)
Christine, Spain.

Hi Sara wont turn means that when on the loose and you want them to come back.
, well no harm in wanting .
It just wont happen . It is not so much a disobedient thing as its in their nature once loose to keep going .
They are all the same ask Dizzy . Some hounds such as beagles and afghans do not turn either once in flight.
So long exendable lead and no freerunning outside the garden .
They rally are a breed apart .
Talk tonight I am off for afternoon walk one Sharpei and one free bullmastiff who will not eat anything such as a rabbit . She may play with one though gentle giant as she is . :)
Mari
sorted that Sara

Thank Mari

It wasn't saraw though :-) I thought that was what you meant, but I wanted to check, I did like the phrase, though it very descriptive :-)

Hi al, found this on pork & the UK.
Trichinosis

Mr. Gill : To ask the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food whether it
is his intention to seek exemption from testing for trichinosis in pigmeat
in the United Kingdom.

Mr. Maclean : Yes. With effect from 1 January 1993, the EC single market
directive on the production and marketing of fresh red meat, adopted by the
Council of Ministers on 29 July, will require all pig meat and horse meat
intended for human consumption to be tested forTrichinella spiralis unless
it is frozen by a prescribed method. However, the directive enables the
Council to grant derogation from the testing requirement to member states
which can demonstrate the absence of trichinella on their territory. The
Council is required to decide on any derogations by 1 July 1992. Before
applying for a derogation my Department will be carrying out a survey of
slaughtered pigs and horses to provide further evidence of the United
Kingdom's freedom from trichinella. Officials will write to industry and
enforcement bodies about this survey shortly.

Apparently there there have been only 3 cases of
Trichinosis in Britain since 1988.
Christine, Spain.

According to my other 'alf (who was a butcher before he became an IT guy!) UK pork no longer contains the worm population it used to, and is therefore safe to eat......... BTW - I appreciate you don't all live in the UK - niether of those links referred to a UK web site, infact I couldn't find a UK site which referred to it being a risk here......

Hi Digger, thanks for the info. I think now all European Countrys have to conform with rules & regs concerning the treatment of animals for human consumption for worms/etc that`s why the risk is minimal.Read in one of the EC rules that any animal tested positive for disease/worms etc had to be disposed off & should not go in the human food chain.
Christine, Spain.

Just been checking in my medical books, and the worm has a VERY complex life-cycle! But put very basically, it seems that anything that eats grass will ingest worm eggs, which will hatch and migrate into the muscle tissue of the new host and encyst. When the meat of this animal is eaten, the cysts will also be eaten, and will hatch out in the new host and lay eggs, that are passed onto grass. When this grass is eaten.... etc etc.
Fleas also are an intermediate host for worm eggs, as are snails (esp tapeworm).
The main sources of worm infection for dogs is eating meat from (and I quote): mice, rats, chickens, rabbits, sheep or pigs. Why not cattle I don't know.
It also says that anything that walks on the eggs will get them stuck to their feet, so will be moved anywhere (even everyone's carpets!) Dogs will clean their paws after a walk, and ingest any adhering eggs that way, so, hinestly, the only safe thing to do seems to be to worm your dog every 3 months. Better to be safe than sorry!

i worm !!! -the pups are started at 2-3 weeks and i worm regurlarly for life-----however its each to there own---i feel the same way about those that dont vaccinate, theyre living off the backs of those who do :rolleyes:

My feeling exactly Dizzy. JH

Hi Dizzy & Jackie, just wondering if you knew your dogs didn`t have worms & had a high titre count of antibodies for viral diseases, would you still worm & vaccinate your dogs? I know for certain at least 2 of my dogs don`t have worms so therefore there is no reason for them to be wormed & the same 2 have had parvo & have life long immunity to it so again, no need to vaccinate for that. They also have very high titres for distemper so the same applies for that. Why do you think I should worm/vac my dogs with toxic substances unnecessarily? I certainly wouldn`t call doing those tests, living off the backs of those that do worm/vac.
Christine, Spain.

no christine, --if i knew they where clear , id not go there, but living in town as i do, id forever be having to do poop tests, so i worm instead, :(
also if i had titre counts done and they where high enough, then id leave that off too, im not meaning the likes of those who are bothering to check it all out, but the dozens who dont/wont, worm or vaccinate :)

OK Diz thats alright :) :)
Christine, Spain.

Linda & Christine, this is from the AVMA Principles of Vaccination :

"It is not currently possible to determine the immune status of a patient relative to all the infectious diseases of concern without conducting a challenge test. Serology does not predict a patient's immune status for most diseases. For those diseases where serology has predictive value of a patient's immune status, the variation within and between laboratories renders the procedure generally unreliable."

Yep I already have this one Sharon. Titre testing is the best we have at the moment and because there is nothing that is 100% guarenteed to work I have to go with the percentages that titring is reliable. The same extract you have highlighted can also goes the other way in that there is no guarentee the vaccine will work & can cause adveres reaction as the article points out elsewhere. It was explained to me very early on the differences between labs thats why I have used Glasgow Uni, its reknowned world wide for it`s excellent diagnostic services.
*There is evidence that some vaccines provide immunity beyond one year. Revaccination of patients with sufficient immunity does not add measurably to their disease resistance, and may increase their risk of adverse post-vaccination events. Vaccination is a potent medical procedure with both benefits and associated hazards. Adverse events may be associated with the antigen, adjuvant, carrier, preservative, or a combination thereof. Possible adverse events include failure to immunize, anaphylaxis, immunosuppression, autoimmune disorders, transient infections, and/or long-term infected carrier states. In addition, a causal association in cats between injection sites and the subsequent development of a malignant tumor is the subject of ongoing research. The role of genetic predisposition to adverse events needs further exploration and definition.*
These things are not known by the vast majority of pet owners, until possibly something happens to their pet and thats one of my biggest beefs! Also the points made in no. 1/4/5/6/8/11/12/13/15/16/17/ are very valid & no.18/19/20 I couldn`t agree with more!!!!!! They need to get their fingers out & get the research done without giving us excuses!!!
My beef is that these things are not known to the vast majority of people and I`d like to ask a question, how many people, hand on heart, have ever seen the contra indications data that comes with the vaccines or knew of these things (before reading them here) before having their pets vaccinated? In my case I had asked my vet & got the stock answer*reactions are very rare* & found all this out sadly,after the event.
Christine, Spain.

I read them Christine :). I agree that most people don't but have you read the side-effects leaflet/datasheet from any medicine? Drug companies have to cover their backs for every contingency no matter how unlikely. In medicine the sad fact is that if it works it has potential side-effects. The only things that don't have side-effects don't work either. Its a matter of balancing the benefits against the potential risks - and IMO also social responsibility in the case of vaccination.

I don't vaccinate annually myself and my gripe is only with people who don't vaccinate at all. What they do to their own dogs is their responsibility, but the problems that will occur if there are enough of them are summed up in point 7.

7 - Disease carriers, including animals that shed the infectious agent but do not show signs of illness, are local sources of infection for susceptible animals. Sufficient immunity within a population of animals is an important component of preventing high rates of disease. Programs targeting immunization of unvaccinated animals are critical to disease control.

Those of us who do vaccinate and take the risk of side-effects are keeping those who don't relatively safe. I don't mind that at all, but if the population immunity falls because people are not vaccinating, that puts our puppies at greater risk and I mind that very much indeed.

Sharon I read everything on the labels from food to drugs, after I went down with a severe allergy a number of yrs ago so had to read everything on the labels :) I know the are risks with everything in life but my point was that most people don`t know of the riske regarding vaccs & boosters to animals & they are not given them or even made aware of them. Also what would you do if your litter of pups had a)a reaction to the vaccine causing an horrendous disease b) the vaccine failed & they all got parvo & one died c) other complications due to b) & c) they still had no immunity to any other disease. Knowing that once pups(or adults) have had a reaction the likelyhood of it happening again are very high & you also have to consider the damage thats been done to their immune system & further vacc would probably leave them with auto immune disease.They are the risks I had to face and am still facing, after I had already took the first risk of having my pups vacc. Not easy I can tell you.
Here`s an excellent article by Charmichael & Schultz who have/are doing research & are very highly regarded in the field of immunology. The IVIS site is very good for all things vet/animal too, have a look & see what you think. :)
Christine, Spain.

[link]www.ivis.org/advances/Infect_Dis_Carmichael/schultz/chapter_frm.asp?
LA=1[/link]
Christine, Spain.

Christine, if I had a litter like that I probably wouldn't vaccinate the survivors at all amd I suspect my vet would agree with that view. But I'd still vaccinate the other dogs. I have great sympathy for you about that litter. It must have been dreadful. But can I put a sort of reverse hypothetical case to you? What if you didn't vaccinate, not because your dogs have had those problems, but because you don't believe in vaccines. I have a litter and you come to visit me. We haven't had this discussion, so while I know that you are a responsible dog owner, I don't know your views on vaccines, so I don't think twice about letting you see the pups. And they all get parvo and die. How would you feel .... assuming you survived to feel anything :D.

Puzzled that you link that article as its one I was thinking of linking in support of my POV I use a program very close to what they call 'Program B = The Moderate Approach' plus first booster and plus lepto because of where we live.

Sharon I vaccinated them again against distemper & adno earlier this yr, felt I had no choice really. I had lost my internet connection & was doing everything by phone/fax and would have liked all the info I have now, then. They both had a reaction to it on their skin a couple of wks later. Now to your question, firstly if it was me that brought it in I would be mortified. The second thing is what if I had just had my adult dogs vacc & I came to visit you, wouldn`t think twice about it, but it can & does shed from them & into the enviroment & I could bring it that way. That puts a whole different slant on things don`t you think? Either way I`d still be mortified but what do you do? There is no satisfactory answer, it`s a no win situation damned if you do & damned if you don`t!
You shouldn`t be puzzled I put the link up cos I think its a very well worded, sensible document & it helps others with a programme & also I love the part about boosters & this topic has given an excuse to get it on here for others to read :) :) :) Method in me madness you see :)
Christine, Spain.

Nope, if you had pups under vaccination age you wouldn't get near mine. I honestly don't think it's a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't I'm finding this discussion very interesting (hope it isn't boring everyone else to death) and have gone back to lurking on some BARF/raw/anti-vaccine sites. I saw a link to say that Caroline O'Driscoll was answering questions on ReadDogs so I looked in. The very first post I saw was this one from her.

A second later this reply appeared. Exactly right IMO.

I don't have a problem with someone like you not vaccinating because your dogs have had problems. I've no doubt that in reality you'd be responsible enough to tell me that you don't vaccinate before going in to my pups and dogs belonging to few people who've had severe reactions won't make a significant difference to the community resistance. I do have a problem with those who preach non-vaccination and nosodes to the world. Lurking on these groups is educational, for no matter what goes wrong - and a lot seems to! - its blamed either on vaccination or on the owner doing something wrong with the feeding regime.

There, rant over :). Glad your madness is methodical. That is why I'm enjoying this debate so much - its rare to have such a civilised one with a well informed person on these subjects :).

Hi Sharon, it`s supposed to be a hypothetical question :) That is if I had just had my adult dogs(don`t have any pups) boostered & I went to visit you & your pups go down with parvo because I have carried what the dogs have shed to your house? Very few people think of the viruses being spread that way. You see I found out afterwards that you shouldn`t have your adult dogs vacc. if you have pups around and the vet did my pups at the same time as my adult dogs. So therefore how are we ever going to get rid of them when animals are continually being vaccinated & the enviroment is being contaminated all the time and who is doing the spreading of the disease, vaccinated or unvaccinated dogs?
You do know that I`ve had to join those groups to read the messages don`t you :) :) so ended up reading some other posts as you always do! Came across this one
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DogRead/message/25656
Your right Sharon I do tell people I don`t vacc but I also explain why & give them info to read or not whatever they want to do. But my dogs are not isolated cases of severe reactions, since it happened to mine I have spoken to lots of people who`s animals have had different but no less severe reactions. And also lots of animals who have gone down with auto immune diseases that severely restrict their quality of life. Another thing that i have discovered once I bring up what happened to mine is that breeders/showers,not all but a lots, do the puppy vacc & maybe a booster at a yr old but then thats it which I found very interesting. And talking of interesting yes I`m having a great time with this debate :) You know, it`s the first time I`ve been able to talk about my thoughts and reasoning without getting upset at the memories & thats because we`ve managed to keep it friendly & civilised, so thanks for that. :) :) :)
Christine, Spain.

Morning Christine :).

Viral shed is a favourite with anti-vaccination sites :). It does happen with live virus and the shed virus can cause parvo but as far as I know few live CAV2 vaccines are used now. Shed also occurs with modified live vaccine but studies have shown that the shed particles are modified and not active. I'm not saying that no puppy has ever been infected because of shed from an adult vaccinated with a modified live CAV2 vaccine - its not proven and other vaccines - mostly in cats I think - do shed in a form that causes disease (they also can lend some passive immunity). I wouldn't vaccinate any of the dogs when I'm expecting pups. The alternative is to use a killed vaccine but they take longer to confer protection. But I rather doubt that shed from vaccinated dogs is a major cause of infection. If it was most of would lose litters to parvo.

The article had me grinding teeth :). The veterinary profession is clearly no more free of qualified crack-pots than medicine ;). It has all the usual factors of an evangelist with relevant professional qualifications:

- the headline rant. This one was spoiled by block capitals.

- then the pseudoscience full of twisted facts, half truths, the occasional verifiable item, logical fallacies, outdated information, and the odd plain old fashioned lie.

- citation in proper journal form of published scientific papers that don't really support the case and may even discredit it. The author knows that they look impressive to most. They also know that only a tiny proportion of readers will look up the papers and even less will be able to follow the jargon well enough to evaluate them.

- the philosophical diversion at the end, complete with more fallicies, irrlevenat and straw man arguments etc

- and finally the little touch (the "4%") to make the believer feel good and special.

Its so, so predictable. If you like I'll go through this "paper" - which no respectable journal would dream of publishing - line by line as an example, but be warned! It will be very boring, and will probably damage your belief in evangelical - if not all - scientists :D.

I'm not saying its what happened to your puppies - no vaccine is 100% effective - but the majority of parvo in vaccinated pups is down to persisting maternal antibodies on the one hand and the window between maternal antibodies being lost and vaccination taking effect. There is no easy way to predict how long maternal antibodies persist and it can be form 4 - 20 weeks. So the '4 week' pups are vulnerable in the 'window' and the '18 week' ones because they are not protected by the vaccine. Vaccination twice between 6 - 12 weeks as usually done in the UK only confers about 75% full immunity. That's why repeated vaccination is often done in the US. I don't know why there is a difference - maybe because the US has more non-vaccinated dogs and so the community immunity is lower? :p ;) :).

I've no problem with 'core' only puppy vaccination (I do it at 8 and 10 weeks) and first booster then no further boosters for viral disease. I suspect that will become the accepted norm, maybe with the first booster at 6 rather than 12 months. For now though the best licensing for a parvo vaccine is 2 years. That almost certainly is on the careful side of safe so I'm happy boostering every 3 years plus less than yearly lepto only vaccination.

The immune suppression/ auto-immune disease as a result of vaccination is interesting. I don't know much about it and will have to try to find out more.

Glad you're enjoying this and not finding it upsetting. I' having fun and every reply sends me off to Medline & IVIS to look up more which is great. Just hope we aren’t boring everyone else silly :).

Well I was going to come in on this a few times , Sharon Christine .but decided not to as Im still very emotional re Sophie and Alice getting Hepatitis from the yearly booster. Spiking dormant cancer according to the vet.
Babs getting thyroid probs all this in one year that .
So because I happen to think that when your emotions are raw from the loss of dogs due to boosters.
It is not a good idea to get involved in a debate that may touch a raw spot. .Therefore not allowing me to debate the issue calmly .
However your both doing fine by yourselfs and im reading with interest all points you are both bringing up.
Mari

Hi Marie,understand how your feeling & agree emotions do get in the way sometimes when your trying to keep a clear head. Time does help tho & I found learning & trying to understand how all these things work helped a lot. So pleased that you`re finding it interesting & maybe helping :)
Christine, Spain.

Hi Sharon, thought you might have a fit when you read that!! :) :) :) The vacc that was for my pups was attenuated & I`m told thats a live one but modified live? Havn`t found any reports/studies to say that that when modified vacc are used the virus shed is also modified unactive. Again no scientific proof that pups can be infected from adults but surely if it`s known to happen in cats I must assume it can happen in dogs. When I challenged the vet from Merial about this they went quiet & said *you have no proof*. But it can`t be disproved either. You know you are lucky with your climate over there because a lot of viruses are killed by the frost/snow & the amount of rain you have will also dilute the parvo one, it doesn`t like the cold(who does I hear you say) :) so that could be a factor in not having many cases of it. But if your right on th stats of only 75% of dogs having full immunity that leaves 25% at risk & thats a lot don`t you think?
Re the headline, nnoo don`t go thru it we will be accused of boring everyone to death then :) I couldn`t get the paper to come up for some reason so couldn`t read it.
I do think the end bit gives room for thought, the bit about immune damage & vacc. I am on a few dog health lists & it is a nightmare for people whos dogs have AI diseases. Dr Dodds has done a lot of research into it & believes vacc are the trigger for them & I agree with her. The trouble is again, you don`t know which dog will be susceptible to them unless there is a history of it in them. There are some breeds already known tho. Gets back to more research being needed!
As for estimating the amount of maternal antibodies pups have, I have been advised by Glasgow Uni that I could have the dam titred & then the pups & this would give me a v good idea as to when the best time would be to vaccinate them. The theory being that by knowing the dams antibody level they could work out how long the pups would have them & when they would start to decline & the best time to titre the pups before any vaccs. This was suggested when I was asking all about how you are supposed to know when the pups antibodies won`t interfere with the vacc. Very interested about your theory on doing the booster at 6mths rather at 12mths, why do you think that would be better? Glad to hear your not boostering every year tho.
Do tend to spend loads of time on IVIS myself but will have to add Medline to that now :) & think by now we`ve bored the pants off everyone but I`m still enjoying it :)
Christine, Spain.

Hi Christine - just posted a long reply, then accidentally moved to another site and lost the whole thing . Will re-type it soon.