can 6day old pups have pro kolin ? ....right here goes ,when hubby took mum to vets and saturday he was 2 and 1/2h so i got some milk ready ,reading on here how good carnation milk was i mixed half milk/water ,and started to feed pups!! they were cryin ,i got to boxes girls in 1 boys in another ..started to feed the girls 1st ,only a tiny amount just to keep them going till mum got back from vets ,monday 1 girls started with the runs ,and then at 3pm she stoped sucking i took her to vets ,she had pain killer fluids and AB jab ,she came home and drank from mum all night, got back from vets the rest of the girls started to back we went ...the vets went MAD at me for giving this milk!!!!!! today back at the vets and now 1 of them is being sick ??? so because IVE given them this milk i think the girls are going to die ? they are curling up cryin poo is shoting out their bottoms and im walking round like a vombie i carnt think stright ,ive got swine flu and want to die ,i carnt cope with the fact this is all my fault!!! and ive had to ring the owner of dam and tell her what ive done, she wanted 2girls and i was keeping 1 ,looks like it isnt going to happen now ......ive done breeding never again will i put myself though any more pain and heart ache ....what do i do ?

oh darlin, i really have no advice, but just want you to know im thinking of you at this difficult.... praying or you and the little ones. get hubby to stay up with little ones tonight.... try and have a good sleep. im sure things will look bit better after a few hours kip...

take care xx

I am sure that you are very tired and upset (don't take it as criticism) I remember how I felt when we had a litter in the summer, plus my f-in-law passed away and it all felt too much.My litter had a bug, all be it they were a lot older but I was convinced it was something I had/hadn't done; they can look so vunerable. Take a deep breath, try and get some rest whilst someone else puppy sits. You have had them at the vet, they would have told you if they thought it was critical. Sounds possible that the milk may have upset their system and it's working it's way through? They go downhill quick and bounce back quick. You say they are feeding so are getting fluids.

If you are worried phone the out of hours vet for advice and reassurance; personally I wouldn't contact the bitch owner at this stage, she had entrusted you with her girl so she must have confidence in your ability. If it were me I would get upset explaining what was happening and then would feel worse and even more unable to cope. 

Sending positive thoughts, let us know how you get on.
 

I am sorry I am not giving you the sympathy that you obviously want, but can I ask why on earth did you feel the need to feed the pups when the bitch was only gone for two and a half hours. pups normally cry its healthy have you seen how much sugar there is in carnation milk. Watered down its not to bad for older pups but newborns, what where you thinking. there is specially prepared powdered milk for new borns. When breeding you should have all that to hand, if the milk is the reason for the puppies being ill yes it is your fault, I have been reading your threads from the beginning and in my opinion you interfere to much. there is a time and place for breeders to interfere with whelping. Let the bitch know your there to give them support and help if needed. There are loads of breeds that need more help than others, this is totally different to interfering. You said in one of your first post the owner of the bitch was flapping, well so were you,  I think you should bite the bullet if you have swine flu and let the owner of the bitch take her and her pups home, as you are obviously to ill to see to a litter at the minute.

you are so right!! and this is all my doing with the milk ,im not looking for sympathy i just feel so gilty for what ive done ,i left her to whelp only steped in when i needed to and if i hadnt she would of left 2 pups dead ,i know i did nothing wrong with the whelping side of things !
i was told by a breeder of same breed about the nlik and then reading it on there thought id use it :( very very big mistake on my part when id got whelpi in ....i just needed to write this down so if any1 eles thinks of useing this milk DONT ...what ever happends ive larnt the hard way , friend as trusted me and ive let her down but more then that ive let the pups down ,and this is why il never breed again ,will be ringing her in the morning to get them ,and i will pay all vets bills for this

We had to bottle feed the litter we had because mum didn't produce enough milk, we used powder whelpi milk once we saw she didn't have enough for the litter and we had no probs at all. I don't understand why your litter is ill is is because the wrong milk was used? Can somebody tell me, we used stuff that another breeder used and kept it in the cupboard. 

Oooo iv just googled the milk, as Id never heard puppy milk given that name I thought it was a new brand, you don't mean that cooking milk do you??!

dont know if you cook with it or not? i just know ive made the bigst mistake of my life ,no one can make me feel any worse than i do !some thing i have to live with now

Yes triona you've got it in one

Hi White Lilly, as I have used the Carnation/Water/egg mix for every pup I have hand reared over the last 15 years, and the vast majority of them have survived I odn't understand the cries of horror you are getting here.  Did you boil and then cool the water before mixing?  I have used this mix on toy and medium size breeds with great success.  I can understand vets objecting, as very few newer vets have much experience of rearing pups, and would always go for a brand name  make, but this mixture avoids the difficulty of mixing any powder formula, is palatable, and has never given me any trouble when just needed to supplement for a few feeds, or completely feed pups on it, so very sorry to hear about your babes.  Of course I could not be certain, but would think the trouble could be casued by a bug, very possibly brought back from vets by Mum - why did she have to go to vets to begin with?

Important thing now is how are pups doing?  Are they feeding from mum?  I am fairly sure you can get a puppy formula Pro Kolin from the vets.  Did you say the Vet gave one of the pups an AB shot?  (sorry can't see previous posts while posting), if so, why?  Am assuming they thought the problem was possbily an infection.  Without knowing the answers to these questions can't do much to advise you, but it is vitally important to make sure the pups do not get dehydrated, so you may need to give them some rehydration fluid.

gwen i just typed the same thing then lost it arrgghh.

I have used evaperated milk very sucessfully to hand rear baby rabbits and guinea pigs. Its been a while since i bottle fed pups but to be honest i would use it if i had to.

cant help thinking they have picked up something from mum rather than milk. White lilly i think you need to take a deep breathe, step back from the pups, maybe a good nights sleep would help and reassess in the morning.  Its hard/worrying enough when its your own bitch cant imagine how i would feel looking after someone elses.

Fingers crossed they all make it

Like Gwen I am sorry to hear of your troubles and hope dam and pups are improved very quickly.

Like Gwen I also use evaporated milk for my pups, have never had any problems and am not aware of any potential issues? Would be interested to know what issues the use of diluted/ enriched evaporated milk mixes could be ?

K

Im hand rearing someones pup at the moment and from 4 days old he has been on 50% water 50% carnation and he is
going great guns,he was so dehydrated when I took him in he was very dehydrated.

Whitelilly don't feel bad.  You did what you thought was right, everyone makes mistakes and as we have already heard vets often poo poo old fashioned remedies.  It is more important what happens from here, no point in making you feel worse than you already do.  One of my litters were constipated when weaned onto raw meat, I learned from that (still feed raw but start with something easier for the pups to digest intially). How are the pups now? Puppy pro kaolin is a great idea that the other members  have suggested.

white lilly
It appears that loads of us have used Carnation evaporated milk.

I first used it back in the 70's.  Please remember that we didn't always have welpi, lactol etc.

Don't beat yourself up.

Ok never with pups but I've used it many times when hand rearing kittens and chinchillas. Perhaps the mix was just a little too strong for their wee tums? The litter of shih tzu pups my friend rescues (well she rescued a bitch to find out it was pregnant) all had the runs for 24 hours. Just clean, clean and clean again. So long as they are feeding from mum with no problems they should bounce back I'm sure.

More importantly get some rest! You are no good to man or beast if you are a zombie. Mum will look after the little ones or have your hubby sleep with them in case anything changes overnight.

Thoughts are with you and fingers are crossed!

I have heard about using evaporationg and arm milk. It may just be a conicedence that they got I'll at this time. Vets gave ABs so it must be an infection rather then the milk?! I understand how ur feeling my pups are 2weeks today and i have been walking around like a zombie for the last two weeks worrying about everything so much so that I've cried many times out of sheer tiredness n worry. Sleep will help and if theyvare nursing then they still have some fight in them to keep going!! You must keep going and once they pull through you will feel great. U were only trying to do what you thought was right things go wrong but u are trying to put them right so keep going!!

reading on here how good carnation milk was i mixed half milk/water ,and started to feed pups!! 

I don't read all posts, but where the heck did giving new born pups carnation milk come from, who gave such advice? Whelpi/goats milk with egg yolk are both great substitutes for feeding pups with when the bitch is unable or dead. I'm glad that you posted anyway to make sure that no-one else does such a thing and I'm very sorry that things are turning out this way. I wouldn't even give carnation to an adult dog, I don't even like it! If you wish to give a milk top up especially when a bitch is lactating you can't go wrong with goats milk for a bitch, it's much easier on the stomach.

The pups obviously can not digest this hence the sickness and diarrhoea, which is a strain on their wee bodies, hopefully they will get it out of their system one way or the other, the antibiotics will do their job but otherwise I would treat them a little like they have colic and give their tums a little massage, and keep them cuddled to my neck with some TLC on and off being with mum, especially if they are unable to sleep, as your bitch will need rest too, they are probably in pain, even after the fluids, fingers crossed they will pull through white lilly, give them another 2 or 3 days and touch wood they will come through just fine.

No point crying and getting yourself into a state hun, it won't help, be strong now, focus on getting them better and not worrying the DAM, she'll pick up on your stress.

Fingers crossed! Touch wood they will be ok.

What is done is done, but it may not have been the actual milk, but due to whatever bug the bitch has (you said she has AB's) the Antibiotics in the bitches  milk can give pups the runs.

Also when bottle/artificial feeding did you sterilise all the equipment?  This is just as important with puppies as with babies bottles and teats.

Carnation milk is cows milk and many dog cannot tolerate cows milk (or more properly the milk sugasr),  Puppy formula's have been altered so this is less likely, and there are formula's made from Goats milk to which there is less intolerance.

Just make sure the pups are not getting dehydrated, do the pinch test.

If necessary give them cooled boiled water, in sterilised equipment.  Perhaps ask the vet about using electrolyte (like diarolite (sp) ) solution, proportions, obviously not the flavoured kind.

Carnation milk contains sugar. Sugar has laxative properties. I'd avoid anything containing added sugar for puppies.

I would only use whelpi or other such 'puppy milk' does the saying go 'one mans milk is another mans poison'? (But then SO much is made up on the t'internet isn't it?) but then again I have ALWAYS had a milk substitute in my 'whelping kit' I believe a familiar name from here has written an awful lot about whelping and has recent experience, sometimes it's wise to heed the advice of others...sorry about the pups though...(proof read by hubby who is much bitter at the english than I ams!)

update..pups are still feeding ..the runt of the litter is doing better then all the rest ....1 of the boys is cring alot ,only 1 girl is alittle slow to drink now ...i think cus i feel so ill its making me feel worse ,i sterilised everything ! yes the milk most of been to rich for them ,and ive rang some breeders i know in this breed to ask if im at fault and ,i am cus i gave the milk BUT im not cus alot of breeders use this and not puppy milks !! like jean said (i think?) ....you have to ajust if it upsets tums,

breeder also told me to get my book of the bitch out and look at page 114 ...it tells you their how to mix canned evaporated to feed pups ...we all use this as our breeders bible? ive rang dams onwer and she is fine about it and told me not to blame myself ,she said what will be will be and that she trusts me or she wouldnt have let me do this for her ,shes asked me if im happy to carry on and i will do so ,we talked alot about me doing this and she said she would never blame me for any puppy deaths for what ever reason it happend ,she knows the 1st 2weeks are the most importend to pups lifes ,its just very bad timing i get swine flu 2days after pups born "sods law" ...i will do my upmost to keep pups alive , i wish i hadnt wrote this tread but i have ,when i took 1st pup to vets when she became ill i didnt tell them about the milk (didnt think it was a problem thats why vet gave AB's ,when i went back cus of the other girls stating with the same thing ,i told the vet about the milk thats when he said it was the milk that had done this ! so the other girls didnt get AB's ....hope this makes some sense lol my temp is still high but do feel alittle better today .

Glad things are looking better in the cold light of day.
I think we have all done things and thought better of it later, by writing this you have at least got opinions, even if some of them were a bit fierce...... education and support is what this forum is about, learning from each other.
Hope things go more smoothly for you and pups in the future. I couldn't tell you the amount of times I read my Book of the Bitch, It was invaluable with a difficult proper breech, husband who is normally calm didn't know what to do and the vet forgot to phone back!!

thanks karen ,ive read my book from cover to cover .and it isnt my 1st time for being there at whepling times but its only 3rd litter here for me to look after we learn evertime i think x

Hi white lilly, stop feeling guilty right now! Several years ago l had a bitch who had no milk at all after the first 2 days, and l had to hand rear the puppies from then on. I fed them  diluted Carnation milk, mixed with raw egg yolk and glucose. I cannot remember the exact recipe, as it has been so long ago, but suffice to say, not only did they all live, but they positively thrived. Good luck.

thankyou jayce and every1 eles that has used this and had good results ...im starting to think its not the milk as 1 of the boys is not feeding now!! and cring alot ! x

Could they have colic?
A little infacol will help if they have.

can colic give them bad runs and stop them from feeding?

I also hand reared a litter in June on Evaporated milk, water, egg yolk and glucose. This was a perfect feed for him and he is now 6 months old and a little star.

Its the same thing with babies.
Certainly can stop the feeding.

Hi White lilly don't know about breeding or milk etc but just wanted to wish you and the babies a speedy recovery you've certainly had a time of it x

thanku justme , god i feel so ill and boy pup keeps cring then mum looks at me and shes starts crying its sooo pitifull ,its breaking my heart x

Hi again white lilley, l don't know if this will be of any help but, l was always taught that, if a whelping bitch, or puppies had to have antibiotics, "LIVE", plain yoghurt helped to restore the "good" flora in the intestines. Apparantly, antibiotics destroy the "good", as well as the "bad" flora. I am clutching at straws here white lilley, but you will only need to give a tiny amount, just dip your little finger in, and dab it on the tongue, every few hours or so. But l really do NOT think that it was the milk which you gave, that caused this problem. The worst case scenario, and l truly do NOT want to distress you is, "fading puppy syndrome". In over many, many years, l have only encountered this problem twice, and despite mine, and my vet's best efforts,   it was a futile experience.

Glad to hear most of the litter are doing better, hope the little boy imporves too - not quite clear if he has the runs too, or if he could be colicky?  Sorry to repeat myself, but are you checkng for dehydration?

Reading through the thread posters seem evenly split on opinions of milk supplements Vs home made with Carnation.  I have posted this before on other threads, but not everyone has time to trawl thorugh archives, so here goes again.  I use this method  because of a discussion I had many years ago with a vet who was dong research into neo natal puppy deaths.  One of his findings was that of the pups who had been bottle fed with puppy formula almost all had traces of powder residue in the lungs, which very possibly contributed to their death.  If even a tiny amount of the milk was aspirated, even if it was "coughed up" again, the powder would remain and lead to major problems.  Until that time I had used lactol when a milk replacement was needed, with only limited success.  I researched what lots of breeders gave, searched thorugh books (this was pre googling) and the carnation formula came up top of the success charts for both UK & USA breeders.  In the USA corn starch is often added, over here glucose.  I am happy with the straight forward mix of one small can of Carnation Milk, mixed with equal amount of freshly boiled and then cooled water plus an egg yolk (absolutely no white).  Mix thoroughly and keep covered in the firdge for no more than 24 hours, so a new batch needs making up at least every day.  Of course, it needs bringing to blood temp. before feeding to pups.

I have never used Welpi / Royal Canin as the powder question was the same as for Lactol.  I think Esbilac (not sure if name is right) comes ready mixed, but as the Carantion formula has worked for me for so long, I don't see a reason to try another formula on my precious pups jsut to see if it works.

I agree with the point made about live yoghurt for upset tums in tiny pups after ABs have been taken by either the pups or by Mum, it helps put digestion back on an even keel again.

Slightly OT but I remember reading that in cases of Fading Puppy Syndrome a transfusion from the sire could save the litter. Don't know if it's been disproved since I first read it as it was a good few years ago?

hi zaska yes ive read it or one like it ...the sire is good to use if hes not long had his booster .

One of his findings was that of the pups who had been bottle fed with puppy formula almost all had traces of powder residue in the lungs, which very possibly contributed to their death. 

Um, very interesting, I think that the word possibly very much should be kept in context here and would suggest 'improbable' to be a closer fact, before everyone is frightend to death we give our babies powdered formula to suggest that powdered formula's may have contributed to deaths is IMO terribly scaremongering and there is no proof that it causes any damage other than hearsay. Puppies die all the time and generally whilst being fed by their mothers, how was this conclusion from this vet ever made when FPS is so widespread? To even come to such a conculsion in my mind is scandalous. Sorry Gwen I have much respect for you, but I find this nothing more than speculation.

All species milk is different nutritionists and science over decades have worked closely together to make formulas as close to the original mothers milk as possible because we know that milks from other animals do not contain what other species need, we are the only speices, (other than calves) who can really tolerate cows milk, (and even some of us have to switch to goats milk or no dairy at all)

Cows milk and carnation really should be shelved under 'We now know better', yes, it made do when we knew no different but more importantly we have access to better now, but as with many things progress, science/ nutritionists often get ignored as people like to stick with what they are used to, that is very human, just like people like to stick to the receipes and remedies that have been passed down from generations. Each to their own.................... to say that Carnation does not provide all the ingrediants a pup needs and can cause reactions like diarrhoea is a fact but to say that formulas may be dangerous and the cause of puppy deaths is not fact.

I've not had to bottlefeed many puppies, but I have done dozens upon dozens of kittens, and indeed am currently bottlefeeding a kitten. I always use Cimicat which is the cat version of Whelpi (same manufacturer), and I have lost count of how many kittens I've saved this way. :) The first time I used it was in 1995 and I even named one of the kittens Cimi due to this fact -he gained the title of Premier at shows once adult. So I have a lot of faith in the milk powders -but only these two, Lactol and also RC milk powder I've never had a kitten survive on.

Hi Carrington, simply posted the reasons behind my use of the Carnation formula, as peole seemed to think it was used without any basic thinking behind it.  I have no idea if this vets findings were published, discussed etc. etc.  It seemed a very reasonable hypothesis, and after I discussed with my own Vet she was much inclined to agree with the findings of the Vet doing the study.  As he was studying neo natal deaths and the only consistent thing he came up with in many unrelated cases was this trace of powder it seemed to me a very reasonable conclusion that it had at least been a contirbutiong factor.  Remember this was quite a few years back and I have very likely forgotten much of his reasoning etc in the mists of time.  I do remember that his research had included making up the various brand name formulas to check for disipation of powder in liquid and being unable to acheive a complete mix which satisfied him, he always got a trace of undisolved powder.   I know lots of breeders swear by whelpi and the other brand name puppy formulas, but having adhered to my method for so long I am happy to stick with it, and wanted to make sure others who have used it are not unduly worried by others who are adherents of the branded formulas.  It may be an old fashioned method, but "if it works don't fix it" is my view on my use of it.  My pups thrive on it, those who can go back to Mum's milk switch between the two methods without problems and I can't think of any bottle fed babes I have had who got the runs, apart from those who have had to have AB for some reason.  I may be old fashioned, but am unwilling to change simply for the sake of being more up to date, and am happy to recomend the method to others, on the basis of the excellent results I have found in my own litters.  Most of us consider our own methods best - surely that is why we use them, the value of this forum is that we can share them with the less experienced and allow them to benefit from our findings and thoughts.

I have probably done the vet who did the original study a great dis-service by only being able to quote bits and peices from his findings but wanted to make it clear that use of powder formula is not universally approved of in Veterinary circles, however much big companies may throw at making them.  OF course the vast majority of pups who are fed it are fine, but I prefer to err on the side of his findings and my own exprerience, and not change jsut for the sake of it, my pups are too precious to me to be an experiment.

gwen after reading every thing you have said i do agree with you ,and maybe the mix was just alitter to rich for them ,my breed are terible for dicky tums x

Hear Hear ..

K

Thank you for your reply Gwen, it just seems to me that if there were any credence whatsoever in this vets theories particularly if made years ago, powdered milks would be withdrawn by now and law suites to follow tenfold. As this has not happened or even to my knowledge been officially debated all I can sumize is that people often have theories on everything that even we eat and drink there are always documents from Mr or Mrs X on what others feel is and isn't good for us on the damage or the cures that foods and liquids cause. These are always looked into and stringent testing is done, by the companies making the products and official bodies, if nothing changes then nothing is proven and talk is therefore just talk.

Hundereds if not thousands of people hand rear pups (and their own babies) on powdered formula's every year and have healthy, happy puppies, which makes me wonder why anyone would ever say different. (The vet didn't have shares in Carnation Milk did he? :-D )  Vets often get things wrong, we know that and IMO this one has scared you for nothing and taken away your faith in a completely proven and safe product, it only takes one person to give that doubt and I dare say many on the board now have a seed sewn, not good IMO as forumla saves many lives day in and day out, and I would hate to put doubt where there are absolutely no facts.

I guess we shall all stick with what we have confidence in. Confidence being the word. :-)

Hi again Carrington,  The vet didn't take my confidence away from a product I was having success with - I was unimpressed with the results using lactol anyway.  This conversation came about during an eye testing session, the vet was not some crank but a concerned professional who also happened to be a breeder himself.  The research he was doing was not actually into the effects of  powdered milk v Carnation on puppies, but on the unexplained causes of death in neo natal pups.  To this end he had done autopsies on  large numbers of such pups, and had discovered that a recurring theme in those who had been hand fed was the powdery residue.  This was simply one of the observations from his research which at the time was ongoing.  At no time did he recomend the Carnation method - this was something I decided on as an alternative to Lactol after the discussion and after research into books and conversations with experienced breeders.

As this was independent research I presume it would have  been presented by him at some time, either at a conference or in a Veterinary journal.  The bit about the powdered milk being only one very small bit of the larger picture he was looking at, but the bit which seemed to me to make sense and could go some way to explaining the puppy deaths which occurred when bottle feeding.  Once I switched from the powdered product to the home made mix my success rate with hand reared pups increased enormously.  I don't routinely have PMs done on dead pups, so could not say if the pups I lost before changing my routine had the residue on their lungs, all I can say is that the Carnation Formula works beautifully for me, and for hundreds of other breeders if books, conversations etc. is to be believed.  OF course, many breeders are totally happy with the brand name formulas, I am not trying to put others off using them, simply putting forward a case for an alternative, and the reason I went for that option. 

I am afraid big company and even "official" research is too often tainted with commercial interest and profit margins to be as valuable is it may appear.  Of course, human infants are fed formula too, but I am afraid the size difference in a new born babes lungs' makes it a lot more able to cope with a tiny irritant - compare the size of an average (ish) baby at 7lbs to a puppy at 7oz.

The thing is though Gwen (and I'm not saying Carnation is no good -know lots of cat breeders who use it!) Lactol is meant to be for puppies OR kittens and it says itself really that cannot be much of a product as bitch's milk and queen's milk are rather different. Which is why I had more faith in Cimicat and Whelpi instantly and the results spoke for themselves. :)

> gwen after reading every thing you have said i do agree with you

Me too.  I used it first over 30 years ago.  I have obviously tried Lactol and others since.  But Carnation is something that I routinely buy in for bitches - even when not hand rearing.  Simply because, diluted, a bitch will drink far more, and it helps milk production.

> Lactol is meant to be for puppies OR kittens and it says itself really that cannot be much of a product as bitch's milk and queen's milk are rather different.

Absolutley agree, but at the time Lactol was the most popular milk replacement around, I think,it was certainly the only 1 I had used.  The Vets research was on powdered formula generally.

if and i big if !! i ever do this again i will try carnation but mix alittle bit weaker and see how i go .

Gwen my vet has said the exact same thing about powder.
He recommends full fat goats milk.

How many people actually have a post mortem on neonates though?

ive been doing abit of reading about this carolyn and from what ive took in lol ...not many!!! it seems to be big breeding kennels "might" if they loose afew pups over and over ,it very costly to do ,so breeders that only have 1 litter every so many years to keep a line going dont tend to do it .

You know hand rearing is so so hard and tiring.  If mum was only gone for 2-3 hours they would have been okay! Is mum okay? and feeding them again now?  I do hope that things have settled.  At the end of the day whats done is done and we all make mistakes, you now have to be positive and responsible and cope despite all thats going on.  Its the same as having a newborn baby you have to keep going.  I wish you all the best and hope that you can get over this.  My heart goes out to you but dont give the pups ANYTHING other than what the vet has given you or told you to do.  Keep his number on speed dial and if you are worried ring them. 

Hoping they pull through.  And that you feel better soon too.