Tiegan had her 8 babies on Sunday, they were at least 3 days early but I was told that she ovulated on the wed which was her first mating, she was then mated again on the friday and saturday and we finally got a tie on the last mating so I suspect that these pups were about 5/6 days early. It says in my book of the bitch that my breed should be between 16oz and 24oz at birth. However, my babies were ranging from 12oz to 13.5oz. I put this down to them being a little early. Would that be right?
Anyway, Im a little concerned about 2 of the boys. At birth the blue boy was 13.5oz after a day he went down to 12.6oz, which I accept as Im guessing they lose a little after birth then put it on again. Ive weighed them again today and blue boy is now 12.4 so has lost more.
Im far more concerned about green boy he was 12.5oz born then day one was 11.7oz, now on day 4 he is a tiny 10.6oz!!!
The rest all lost a little in the first day but are now at least 2oz bigger than their birth weight.
I checked them all for cleft palate when they were born and have checked again and rechecked just incase I missed it and all of them seem to be feeding well. Green boy manages to get a teat and has no problem suckling at all from what I can tell.
Do you think maybe removing the other 6 for a little while and making sure them 2 get fed first it would help?
Is this something to worry about and what would you do if it were your babies?
I keep making sure they get on the back teats and put the bigger ones on the front. They also dont cry any more or less than the rest so am assuming that they are happy enough just not sure why theyre losing weight, espescially since they were 2 of the bigger ones when born.

Any ideas please Im really worried. Also mum was wormed with panacur 10% from day 40 to 2 days post whelp and also had the CHV vacc after mating and before whelping.
Thanks all
Amy

As long as pups are showing no signs of dehydration any pups that are a bit slow I plug on whenever I pass the box and the others are asleep as at this stage Mum Will be with them all the time.  Also get them on a teat that a bigger sibling has really got going.

Once she starts leaving the whelping box I will give the smallest extra private sessions with the small pup.

I would not remove the other pups as this will only serve to upset Mum, and that can affect the let down response.

It takes at least 3 days for the real milk to come in and establish to match the pups requirements, as it is based on supply and demand and some smaller pups may tire with the effort.

ive just checked him and he is dehydrated....shall i ring the vet?? trying to keep calm now

It may be best to he may be able to rehydrate the pu0s and then you can make sure he gets extra from Mum.

I had a very similar situation a few weeks ago with one of my 12 day old puppies.  He had very slowly been putting on weight and I had given him puppy stim for quite a few days just as it seemed to perk him up to feed off his mum but on the whole had no problem feeding on his own.  On day 12 he took a sudden turn, terribly dehydrated and had literally the weight had dropped off him overnight.  I gave him some lactol formula straight away, he just lapped out of a lucozade lid as would not take the bottle.  Got him to the vets who could not find anything wrong with him but gave him an antibiotic jab and said to just keep going with the formula but water it down more just to rehydrate him.

I fed him like this every two hours for the next few days and after that he started to feed on his own again but I did keep going offering him the formula regularily which he took (I did switch to Nutrolac after reading good things about it on here).

He is 6 weeks old today and although much smaller than the others he is the first to go for his food and can hold his own against the big ones.

Don't give up!

OK so I rang the vets and they told me it was best to get them checked incase there was something underlying...knowing my vets didnt do home visits I told them I would ring back. I rang another 3 vets in my area to see if they would come and see them at my house and no vets do home visists. In the end, I had to ring my vets back and ended up taking them down! They made sure they got me in when surgery had closed for ops so they had at least cleaned the floors and there was no other animals about. Anyway, took them in and she listened to hearts checked them over etc. and couldnt find anything wrong with them. She said they didnt seem dehydrated compared to the rest just at this age they have wrinkly sort of skin anyway!?
She gave both the small ones an antibiotic jab just be on the safe side. When she felt mum she said she did have milk but not much and they would probably really have to work for the milk, therefore the smaller ones not getting as much cos they are a little weaker. She told me to give themboth 10 mins on mum to keep her milk supply up and to top these 2 little guys up with whelpi afterwards, espescially for the next 24 hours.
I really dont know what to do, I know I should take my vets advice but Im reluctant to interfere if I can help it. Of course I want these 2 to survive so will top them up every hour if I have to but I also dont want to upset them unneccesarily.
What do you guys think? Shall I keep on getting a big one to get the milk going and make sure they get on the back teats all the time or do I top them up with the whelpi? What would you do if it were your litter. Im not saying I dont trust my vet but I very much doubt shes ever had a litter of her own before and its completely different actually doing it rather than just going from a textbook, she was a young girl, who also hasnt been there long so not sure how much experience she has with pups.
I value the opinion of you breeders much more as you have the experience.
Little one is feeding from mums back teat now and seems a right little fighter.
Is there anything I can try to help with mums milk? Do you think that she may not have much because theyre only 4 days? Could it be that her milk is just starting to come in?

Please help everyone, I feel desperate now, I dont want to lose any of these lovely babies.
Amy

Edited to add, mum is drinking plenty of water and is on Arden grange puppy/junior. I do have some Arden grange weaning/puppy here do you think this would be better for her, and would it make a difference to her milk supply?

I have just picked up the little green boy and his tummy is now full....surely if his tummy is full and he isnt crying for more he doesnt need topping up???!!!
Sorry for all these post I just dont have a clue what I should do lol.

God I sound like a right idiot!!! Weve waited so so long for this litter and these babies mean everything to me.
Hopesomeone comes along soon :-)

is mum cleaning them well ? are the 2 small 1s pooing?

yeah she fab with cleaning them and theyre managing to wee and poo fine :-)

then id try just make a very small amont of milk and offer if the pup doesnt want it he will let you know:)

or try give the 2 smaller ones an extra go on  the milk bar between feeds , also use the whelpie for mum, the more she drinks  and the morethe babies are taking off her , the more she will produce , try not to worry at this stage , they do loose weight for the first few days just like babies do , xxxxxx

I am concerned about the vets comment that they have wrinkly skin at this age, I can't think of any breed which should be wrinkly over the withers or the shoulder area at a few days old, the skin itself should look and feel plump and be glossy, any sing of wrinkly or "thinness" of sking (for want of the right word which escapes me) is a warning sign.  If he/they are dehydrated then even if feeding thy can't digest the food.  My suggestion would be to give 2 hourly feeds of rehydration fluid in a bottle/dropper/syringe (whichever you are ahppier using and they take better) and in the alternate hourly slot put on Mum.  This is round the clock for at least 48 hours or until consistent weight gain - I would weigh after each hand feed at this stage to monitor situation.  Also clean the pups yourself after a feed or two so you can see how the pee and poo is looking.  Watch out for potential runs after the AB  shot.

I guess from the expected birth weight they are a large breed and I have experience wiht small and medium breeds, but the basic pricipals on new borns are pretty much the same, you just have a bit more room for error and a bit more time with the bigger pups.  Good luck.

> they do loose weight for the first few days just like babies do ,

Hi jedona, not sure if this is in response to knowing the OPs breed and being able to make a specialist comment on the breeds characteristics as neo nates, or a generalisation.  If a generalisation then not good advice for the vast majority of pups I am afraid.  Certainly a small weight loss in the first 24 hours is normal in many pups, but any further weight loss after this is cause for concern, a consistent weight loss for the first 3 days will almost inevitably lead to deydration and if immediate action not taken loss of the pup.

Hi Gwen, thanks for your advice. My breed is a large breed from the gundog group. They certainly arent meant to be wrinkly, what I think she meant was the skin is loose?!
I have just tried them with whelpi in a puppy bottle and they flatly refused it, just kept spitting it out! I havent got a dropper in the house so will have to give the syringe a go, I have no rehydration fluids or anything here, just whelpi. Is there anything you could suggest?
Any ideas on improving mums milk?
Ive put her on the weaning/puppy and am giving her whelpi to get her to drink more fluids but Im not giving her it the full strength cos I dont want her to get the runs.

im going tho the same thing at the mo ,each day i have had a pup not feeding ,they just will not latch on ! and what ive been doing is every hour ive gave 1mill of cool boiled water then the next hour ive gave 1mill of puppy milk ,donr this for 4days now only getting 10mins sleep here and there its killing me BUT its kept them rehydrated ,they wouldnt suck so couldnt use bottle i had to syringe ,doing it very very slowly so not to choke them but this as worked for me ,mine have also had the runs ,i carnt tell you how tired i am and im also tring to get over swine flu but like you ill try anything to keep them going! but if yours are drinking maybe just give them some water till you can get some rehydration stuff x

Hi again, do you have access to a late night pharmacy where you can get diaoralyte (preferable the unflavoured sort)? You should be able to get a dropper too. If not then boiled cooled water is better than nothing.  Has anyone shown you the dehydration test?  It can't be confused with just loose skin, at 3 to 4 days the pups should be lovely and plump all over if thriving.  Lightly pinch the skin on the withers on one of the pups who is gaining weight, it should go back into place at once, then try on the pups who are not gaining, if it "tents" or is at all slower to return to normal then fluids are needed.

ment to say this bitch isnt drinking much also :( she is large breed and only drinking about 2pints aday ,she will eat her food soaked but not alot of it , its flipin hard work and i know how your feeling ,your not alone x

Meat/chicken stock in the water bowl or Lactol/Whelpi and completely soak any dry food in stock until spongy as well, this will ensure that the bitch is getting enough liquid to make milk.   Fennel Seed Tea (can be added when making stock) is great for helping the milk supply.

It may be that her mouth is sore from cleaning the pups, this will stop her eating unless the food is very soft ;)

when i say 'first few' i do only mean first 2 or sometimes 3 , ..... ,  it wasnt mend as advise , more reasureance this is what happens , they do loose slightly and as long as they are hydrated  and suckling , by day 3 Sometimes day 4 you see they are putting weight on

A quick little update, thank so much everyone for all of your help and advice. Gwen I do feel that they are a little dehydrated, their skin does take a little longer than the rest to go down and I know pups can go downhill so quickly whe this happens which is why I was quite concerned. The vet didnt seem concerned about this at all for some reason? She said that if I felt they were getting worse I could admit them both and get them IV fluids and they would hand rear them for a couple of days. I dont want this to happen as not only are they seperated from the rest of the litter they are also at a high risk of catching something. Im not sure why they didnt just give me some lectade to give them just in case....I usually always have some in but typical I dont have any today!! I think I will ring them in the morning and ask for some anyway, at least its there if we need it and its not gonna do them any harm is it.
Ive decided to top them both up a little and have done 2 very small feeds after theyve been on mum for 10 mins or so. They only took about 2ml each time but its got to be better than nothing, have also been making sure that when others are sleeping I put them on the back teast and if I find them at the front I swap them for a big pup at the back. Ive just weighed them all again and blue boy has gone from 12.4oz to 12.7oz since this morning and little green guy has gone from 10.6oz to 11.4oz! Does this sound about right?
The rest have put on over an ounce today so mum may not have much milk but she obviously has enough for them to put weight on. She doesnt feel very full I have to say and it feels like theres barely any in the front. Will keep on with her whelpi and will try the stock in her water. Am also soaking her food so its well soaked then putting more water on it lol. She'll be peeing for England lol.
I really hope these little guys make it, hopefully theyll pick up a bit more when I get some lectade.
Keep your fingers crossed for me and thanks again

Anyone any other ideas/tips on how to improve Tiegans milk?
Amy

with the sounds of it  her milk will come in bucket loads lol

So glad to hear they are putting some weight on.  Trouble is with some vets advise for new born pups is often theroetical only, they have very little experience of them, it disturbs me that rather than apor active approach at the first signs of dehydration they woudl prefer to wait and then go for overnight stays and IV - as you say the risk of infection is enormous.  The weight gain sound fine, anything in the rigth direction is OK!  Seriously dehydrated pups don't gain, so I think you have checked it in time. 

Only advise I can give is same as others have said, keep her fluid intake up, it can take a few days for the milk to realy let down - you coudl always ask the vet for an oxytocin shot, as this helps release milk flow.  Good luck, the sleepless nights are worth it when you have see them running around in a few weeks time :)

Oh god I really do hope it will come in soon....do they often take this long to produce it? Yeah thats what I was saying earlier, shes probably only ever read things from a text book before and maybe doesnt have that much experience with pups, not practical anyway. I will ask about the oxytocin shot when I ring them for the lectade tomorrow. Im so pleased theyve put a bit on, I actually cried when I saw the scales lol....probably exhaustion as well as the stress and worry. I will continue to top them up until they get strong enough to suckle a bit harder or until her milk comes in properly whichever is first. Again thanks everyone for your advice, white lilly, I really hope your babies start to pick up soon hun, I know how you must feel and Im keeping my fingers crossed for you, mum and pups :-)

Amy

thankyou x same goes here for your boys :) x

OK so the green and blue boys made it through the night, Im exhausted but I dont care anymore. They steadily gaining weight which Im pleased about but at the weigh in this am Ive noticed all the other boys are slowing down quite a lot. The only 2 that are thriving are the girls. Im going to start topping them all up on the vets advice, will leave the girls as they are really strong and will help get her milk down if theyre hungrier. They are giving me some lectade just incase I need it and have told me that massaging her teats as often as poss with a hot flannel is very successful in bringing down the milk so am going to do that before every feed the babies have. They are also sorting me out some tablets that they said are anti sickness tablets and are very safe which quite often bring down milk in bitches, apparently this doesnt work for all bitches but its worth a try.
So although I lost one of the lovely lads during the night, which Im still teary about, Im feeling a little more positive. Ive spoken to Tiegans breeder and the breeder of the stud dog, who I used to work for and shes said Im doing the right thing and it sometimes takes quite a while for the milk to come in properly...I hope this is the case. Fingers crossed after today she'll be leaking all over.
Wish me luck
Amy

wishing you all the luck in the world jade xx