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Topic Dog Boards / Breeding / scanning for ovulation
- By helenzdogz [gb] Date 09.12.09 21:23 UTC
my friends dog is in season and on the advice of  the stud owner has had a scan to see when she will  ovulate. I knew  you could blood test but had not heard of scanning for ovulation. is this as accurate as a blood test? The scanner said she will ovulate tomorrow or friday and has said mate her Friday and Saturday which will be days 12 and 13 of the season. The stud dog owner said they usually leave  a day between matings so wants to mate her Friday and Sunday.  which would be better?
- By NEWFIENOOK [gb] Date 09.12.09 21:37 UTC
I have never heard of scanning for ovulation  before , how do they tell . think i would rather have a blood test.maybe another poster may know of such i thing , i do admit i do like to leave a day in between matings but others dont .
- By helenzdogz [gb] Date 09.12.09 21:43 UTC
I had never heard of it and wasn't with my friend so didn't see what was done but apparently he looked for eggs and measured them to see when they would be ready.
- By Tanya1989 [ir] Date 09.12.09 21:44 UTC
ive never heard of scanning for it either. tried to google it, nothing on it. id leave a day in between too
- By LoisLane Date 09.12.09 22:21 UTC
Not sure this can be done, what did the vet say?
- By klb [gb] Date 09.12.09 22:29 UTC
Have no experience of this being done in dogs but it is routinely done with horses. The overies are scanned and the scanner looks for ripe follicules, measure them and from reading can estimate the day of folicule rupture / ovulation .  Medications to stimulate ovulation are also used at some studs once follicles reach a certain size. Fertility clinics also scan human overies for monitoring of ovarian folicles especially where drugs are being used to promote overain activity and egg production.

In theory  can't see why it wouldn't be possible to scan the dogs overies for ripening follicles, the scan may be difficult to read as multiple folicles will be ripening (the bitch produces many eggs rather than the one or two produced by other) and I don't know how much work has been done with regards to estimating the size of ripe follicles ... perhaps the person who is doing the scan can provide more techical info.. would be interesting to know the science and success rates achieved ?? 

K
- By helenzdogz [gb] Date 10.12.09 06:59 UTC
Interesting that it is done in other animals but I do wonder how it is possible to measure the eggs  in a small breed of dog. I presume a horses eggs are much bigger than a dogs?
My friend was less than impressed  as she said she paid £40 only to be told to mate her dog on the friday, which was the day she had already planned to mate her. She just wasn't sure what to do about the second mating as she usually leaves  a day between matings but is now not sure as the scanner said to mate the day after.
- By klb [ru] Date 10.12.09 08:06 UTC
Thats what I was thinking, canine overies are very small and when the dog is not in season I believe they are hard to find via scan (close to kidneys) unless you have overian cyst/tumours which give a bigger target to scan. When in season, and mulitple follicles grow, I can believe they will be easier to find but not sure how accurate an estimate of folicle size would be?

In large animals the scan is looking for one major ripening follicle, in horses you are looking for a follicle of greater than 20 mm (2cm) and the vet plans matings from that reading. Now a  20mm follicle isn't very big when you consider how big the animal is and the fact that one follicle tends to develop for single egg ovulation, how small would a canine follicle be especially considering the mulitple follicles ripening to produce multiple ovulation  ???

An intersting "potential" method of determination of ovulation but until I could see the hard science behind the technique I will stick to Lab Progesterone tests.

K   
- By helenzdogz [gb] Date 10.12.09 08:27 UTC
Now a  20mm follicle isn't very big when you consider how big the animal is
A  horse  can easily weigh 500kg, my friends dog weighs 5kg  so would that mean folicles 1/100th of the size of a horse? .2mm!!!perhaps the scanner magnifies the image. If vets can miss puppies on a scan I would be very suspicious of someone who says they can see  something as  small as a follicle.  I suppose time will tell  whether it  is the right time to mate her or not, but she has already had one litter after being mated on day 12 with no tests, so I was not convinced that testing was needed this time. but the stud owner was fairly insistant that it was a good idea. I don't think I would want to chance it on a bitch that was having problems conceiving
- By klb [ru] Date 10.12.09 08:44 UTC
Hope all goes well with your friends girl ..

When I had stud males I also insisted on progesterone tests for visiting bitch to remove the element of folks arriving on the wrong day .. there wasn't fertlity issues but people have busy lives and travel long distances. Arriving for the mating on the right day at least ensure no ones time will be wasted. If there are problems with the pair not mating (and it hass happened to me ) at least you know it isn't down to the bitch not being ready and the bitch owner has the option to go to second choice male before she has gone over.

K
- By Brainless [gb] Date 10.12.09 09:27 UTC Edited 10.12.09 09:31 UTC
If the bitch is staying with the stud then I would mate every day over three days, but if you have to travel each time then you leave a day between, that's the only real reason for it.

You increase your chances of success by mating over a longer period, three or four days rather than two, though your best chances are to mate the bitch until she won't stand, this shows she has gone over.

If a bitch is mated at the optimum time she is unlikely to stand for longer than 3 days, but if she is mated a bit early she will stand longer, up to 5 - 7 days.

Some bitches will stand from just before ovulation, other won't until ovulation or after.  The eggs take about two days to be ready for fertilisation anyway, but then canine sperm should live for at least 4 days, but be in best condition for two, and can survive a week.

Some males will only mate a bitch when she is at optimum, no matter what she says ;)  Older bitches that have had litters before and have high libido will often be happy to stand for extended periods, not good for predicting the best time at all ;)

Add to that the bitches who ovulate very early eg day three, or those that are very late eg day 23 it makes for and interesting time trying to get yoru bitch pregnant.
- By annastasia [gb] Date 10.12.09 10:41 UTC
Yes i have heard of scanning for ovulation, we have only done it once and were succesful, a friend of ours used to to this all the time and was usually succesful, we blood test i prefer to do this, good luck with your mating and litter x
- By Brainless [gb] Date 10.12.09 10:49 UTC
A search revealed this document which states scanning is the latest technique for determining ovulation:
http://www.cbra.org.br/pages/publicacoes/rbra/download/RB081Levypag128-134.pdf
- By annastasia [gb] Date 10.12.09 11:07 UTC
Thank you Barbara, that is very interesting reading x
- By klb [gb] Date 10.12.09 17:24 UTC
Intersting read ... might look into the role of scanning alongside progesterone test when I next try AI (failed twice already !!) to try and improve chance of pups BUT as a routine test for ovulation I would be very sceptical of the value of a one off scan after reading the article. Progesterone test remain my favoured method of ovulation monitoring..

K
- By Paris [gb] Date 10.12.09 23:15 UTC
Who did you use for the two AI's and why do you think that they missed
- By klb [pt] Date 11.12.09 07:23 UTC
Will send you a PM
- By cavlover Date 12.12.09 15:05 UTC
Just to add that I have had my bitches scanned for ovulation by Keith Shea (fit and fertile) and it does seem to be very accurate - more so than the blood test.
Topic Dog Boards / Breeding / scanning for ovulation

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