I am still in the 'thinking and researching' phase so please don't jump on me!

I've had Zaska for around a year now and have never known a nicer, more obedient, gentle dog. Her breeder has contacted me (we keep in touch by email with updates etc) to ask if I would consider taking another of his dogs. He initially wanted to buy Zaska back to breed with this dog as he thought they would be a perfect match but I won't part with her so he has made a suggestion...

I buy this dog, pay for the hip scores on both, and let Zaska have a litter should the scores come back ok. He then wants pick of the litter and the right to use the dog as a stud against any of his other bitches. He said he'll pay the going rate for the pup and pass on any enquiries he gets for puppies as he doesn't have a litter planned for next year.

I can't compare either dog to a 'breed standard' because they aren't a recognised breed. Both are healthy, around 18 months and come with their linage (like a pedigree would).

Normally I wouldn't have considered breeding her but I have been trying to find a similar dog as companion to her and this boy is both stunning and very well behaved. The only problem I forsee with him as a pet is that he's been kept kennelled and isn't 100% house trained so I'd have to work on that. Then I think that after being used as a stud he's more likely to cock his leg in the house anyway? I really don't want to keep them outside as Zaska is a real lap dog and I feel that my dogs should be part of the family and not used as livestock.

Just asking if anyone has come across an arrangement like this before and any advice you can offer.

Thanks

Sounds like he wants the benefits and you get all the hard work and expense including getting stuck with any pups not sold! :(

Assuming he kept a pup from Zaska's litter, why does he need to use her for breeding?  He should have his own breeding plans......

Can I just ask exactly what is the benefit to you out of this arrangement??  Did you buy Zaska on breeding terms?

I have certainly known arrangements where stud dog rights were retained and used by the former owner, although even that would be a route that I personally wouldn't go down - what would happen if I'd arranged a holiday or something and the dog had a visiting bitch coming?  It could be very inconvenient.  Who will manage the stud work?  You would really need some kind of written contract to be clear about the details of who does what and when.  How well do you know and get on with the breeder?  It seems to me you have quite a different ethos if they see the dogs as livestock and you see them as pets - this could become an issue, and you seem to be without any control over any aspect of this relationship.  What happens if you wish to have pick of litter?

I don't understand why you should pay for the hip scores on both dogs, when the major beneficiary to me seems to be the breeder.  Or pay for the male if the breeder wants to rehome him.  Why can't you just use him at stud without rehoming him at all?

As far as breeding from my own bitches is concerned, then if I didn't want to, I wouldn't be railroaded into it.  There's too much at stake to risk breeding from a bitch without being very certain of your motives for doing so.

None of the stud dogs we have owned or have had visit us in the house for stud work (to mate one of our bitches) have ever cocked their legs indoors, but then they weren't kennelled dogs.

If this is a breed recognised elsewhere that is just trying to get established in this country, then I can see why the breeder might be keen to breed from every individual within a limited gene pool, but if this is not a recognised "breed" at all, then I don't see much point anyway to be honest.

[Sounds like he wants the benefits and you get all the hard work and expense including getting stuck with any pups not sold!
/b]

very true,
I wouldnt do it , sounds to me like he wants to use you and your dog, and he wants you to buy his dog so he can use it when he likes to breed with other bitches,
I dont know but that dont sound right to me,
you say shes a lap dog and part of your family and Normally I wouldn't have considered breeding her , you dont sound like your really bothered about breeding her so why do it why put your dog thu it not to mention all the hard work you will have to put in if your dog does have a litter, ,

if you want another dog why not concider a rescue ,
having a litter is very very hard work even for experianced breeders,
and if you did it could you afford the vets bills , say if your girl had to have a c-section gosh that can run into £1000 , and (i could be wrong here but maybe not)
i dont think insurance on your dogs vets fees covers pregancy and delivery if needed,

That sounds like a terrible idea I'm afraid. If you own both dogs, and have paid for both of them, plus paid for hip scores etc, then the litter is YOURS and YOU have first pick and decide 100% where the other pups go or not, you don't even have to sell him any pup if you don't want to. And why should he have the right to use the stud dog if you have bought him? Again it would be up to you unless you've entered into some agreement whereupon you either get the dog for free or pay a lot less for him. Think of it like this: you buy a TV off somebody and pay full price, but the seller still wants to come round and watch it at your house, and decide what channel you watch? It's much the same. :)

Hello Zaska,
It sounds to me like this man wants to use you and your dear dog for his benefit.
I also have pet dogs that are very capable to be bred but its not what i want to do. I would not allow my dogs to be used for breeding if i didnt intend it to start with.

Maybe tell him you will buy the dog,but you dont want to breed from your bitch....see how keen he is then.

You can say the 'breed' as you are not advertising a litter or planning one for a long time, it would probably help with responses with it not being a recognised KC breed to know what we are dealing with here. :-) Though to be honest I wouldn't be breeding anything that was not KC recognised, is the breed recognised in other countries? Not illegal I hope................

I've always said that no-one should get into breeding for someone else, breeding is something that should be born of a passion for your breed, to better that breed and continue good lines. Breeding is also something that you need to seriously look into with all the worries and potential hazards that go with it, from whelping problems to the death of your bitch, it should take a lot of studying, reading and if possible first hand experience by watching whelps being born and knowing the process inside and out.

Hypothetically if you were to go ahead with breeding:

I can understand you hip scoring your girl and doing other related health tests to whatever breeds are in the dog, that is understandable but I take it the potential stud that you may buy is an adult? So why are you to buy the dog and then hip score? Why does your breeder not hip score the dog first or wait until it is old enough before you contemplate taking it, why is he planning anything particularly borrowing the dog to stud himself, until he knows the dogs health tests all round are ok?

IMO if you buy this male, pay for all the health related tests, feed and care for it, then I would make sure he is 100% your property, do not sign any contracts at all and do not promise to stud him out. I would have complete control as you should have, the breeder sounds as though he is taking you for a mug.  If you own both dog and bitch then you need not be under contract to do anything, why should you? You can choose to, that is different. I certainly would not sign anything. By all means he can purchase a pup from you if you were to breed and be the first on your list, again your choice. But he should not have any control, he would be getting the best of both worlds with no cost or effort at all.

Personally I wouldn't be dragged into any of it, the breed is not KC recognised, you had no intention initially of breeding, this is Zaska's breeders dream not yours, why put yourself and your bitch through all that hard work and expense, when it is not your passion or dream.

Sorry to repeat, there were none when I started, had a phone call, and wow all these replies.

Zaska has never had a litter and only had her first season back in September. He wants to keep one of her potential pups to use in his breeding program as I won't sell her back to him.

To be fair he did offer way over what I paid for her but she's not a commodity to us. He's also offered this dog at a very reduced rate to help cover the costs of hip scoring them both.

I have got 2 people who have always said if we ever breed from her that they want a pup but I know that talk is cheap and they could well change their minds if it became a reality.

It almost feels like he's offerring us a franchise but I do worry about something going wrong and us losing our baby. On the other hand I would love the experience of having a litter - but I know this is no reason to put her through it. Also in the future there would be dogs from her 'line' should we want one, but that's a future maybe.

My broody heart is saying yes and my sensible head is saying no.

They aren't an illigal breed but would have potential to fall into the hands of idiots wanting to look good so finding the right sort of home is going to be a challenge and I'd need you guys to help me vet them!

Zaska is half Saarloos and half Northern Innuit - both dogs bred to look like a wolf. The male is half Saarloos and half Checkeslovackian (sp) wolfhound.

Did he not keep a pup from Zaska's litter?  He shouldn't need your bitch for his breeding program. :(

You are putting your bitch at risk if you mate her without experience of whelping and rearing pups.  I recently read a post elsewhere by a woman who'd mated her 2 dogs together.  2 were stillborn (I suspect that she didn't know how to get them breathing) and 2 more died in the first 2 days - possibly bad husbandry there too, so she's just left with one!

There are very few responsible people breeding any number of cross breeds in this country and this man sounds like the majority, just producing pups to sell to whoever will buy them. :(

I'll try to answer a few of the questions raised so far...

The only experience I've had of breeding has been with other animals - I bred prizewinning chinchillas lol :) - and when I worked in rescue I have fostered pregnant bitches through whelping and rearing pups. I would love to breed dogs but have never thought of myself as 'good enough' as I don't show them so am out of touch. This was the case even when I had stunning pedigree danes. I'd also be a little neurotic about finding the right homes for pups.

The breeder is a decent enough bloke. His dogs are in purpose built accomodation but only come into the house once in a while. They are well cared for, well exercised and loved but in a different way to my own pets. He has 3 brood bitches at the moment and takes a litter from one a year - giving them 2 year break between. He has male dogs too but tends to stud them out and buy in outside studs for his girls.

I understand the concern over giving him any rights over my dog(s). I certainly hadn't thought of it that way and now I will! If I buy this dog from him it will be my decision if I let them mate and my choice who has pups. I would obviously inform him and let him visit / view pups (IF I went ahead). To buy him and keep him as a pet that may be used as a stud dog is probably the way to go.

I would like to own this boy - even if he were neutered - it's just the rest of it that's giving me a headache!

so in other words you want to breed a litter of Bitsies! :-(

I wouldn't touch this arrangement with a bargepole.
all the benefits to him, none to you.

so in other words you want to breed a litter of Bitsies!

The Saarloos was bred (recently by anyones standards) to be as close to a wolf in appearance and sturdyness but with the trainability and obedience of a GS. Initially Saarloos was trying to breed a dog with no health problems and an immunity to distemper (although this never happened). The Northern inuit is even newer having been bred in the 1980's from several already established breeds - again wanting the appearance of the wolf but the trainability of the GS. The wolf type in both breeds makes them gentle pack animals that are more likely to run than fight.

I really did my research when I decided to get a dog that looked like a wolf (and could go on for pages about them) and would love to be a part of producing the 'perfect' example BUT the genepool is small in this country and the breeders that are out there are a mixed bunch of those trying to produce a well behaved, easily trained, healthy, wolf looking dogs and those out to make a quick buck by selling wolf lookalikes without concern for temperment or health.

I have found that, in general, there are fewer health problems with well bred dogs of this type but the hip score is essential as the GS features so heavily in their lines.

I can't believe the cheek of some people, its quite shocking what some breeders will do to get what they want!!
I would never advise anyone to breed from their family pet unless absolutely sure of their reasons for doing it. Would you be looking to keep a puppy from the litter yourself ? Are you aware of the work and money involved with rearing a litter. It is a HUGE commitment. If she needs a c-section it can cost such a lot of money and there is of course the possiblity that you could lose her. Even if all goes well with the birth you have at least 8 weeks of really hard work and all the stress involved with finding the right homes which are few and far between at the moment. You then have the issue that your boy may very well not be able to live indoors once being used, he is not toilet trained now and I do know of dogs that were very clean indoors before being used at stud becoming filthy in the house and are now not good around other dogs either.
There is no possiblilty I would agree to his 'terms'. If he wants the boy to use at stud then I would suggest he keeps him, he gets him hipscored and he can then allow you to use him and in return he can have second pick of the litter (if you decide to go ahead). You could then keep the pick of the litter yourself as a companion for your girl. I would still think long and hard about it though if I were you :-)

There are quite a few people on the board who are much more of an expert than I on the mix and matches of these type of dogs, I know there are fractions and splits  Northern and British Inuits, Utonagons, Tamaskans, Hebridean Wolfdogs, Saarloos Wolfhounds and the Czech Wolfdog, but isn't the main aim to try and get some of these recognised, so wouldn't it be a better idea not to continually mix these fractions together?

Can I ask, what exactly is this breeder of yours trying to achieve?  What is his aim? That is the reason behind breeding, otherwise there is no reason for it at all.

There are so many breeds of recognised dogs and I can even understand if a breeder is passionate and doing all he can to have a breed like the NI for instance recognised, but this pairing of yours doesn't seem to have a purpose, it's just a cross with another cross, with another cross, not even sticking to one cross, can you see a purpose?

When breeding like this goes on, it just causes more problems it doesn't help what others are trying to achieve. I'm glad that he gives his bitches a two year rest, pleased about that, but I can't see why he is breeding, I can only see for money, there is no other reason.

And given that along with all the other issues, I would stay very clear of all of this. By all means buy the dog if you want it, but I would then get him neutered and your bitch too, let the real people who are trying to do things for a real reason do it and just enjoy your dogs. :-)

I have know experience in breeding at all both my dogs are purely family pets but from what i have learned from many people "in dog breeding" a lot from this site I would agree with Carrington that if you want another dog like Zaska I would but the male have him neutured and enjpy them both as lovely family pets.
If you decide to go into breeding I would not have thought this mans "offer" has any benfits to you and may be not to the breed I would carry on with your research as you  did before getting Zaska with the help of a knowledgable mentor and make you rdesions without pressure from this man know matter how kindly he is you seem to be getting all the risks  on this arrangement.

I would like to own this boy - even if he were neutered - it's just the rest of it that's giving me a headache!
That might be the way to go if that's what you want because keeping entire dogs with a bitch in season can be a nightmare! :(

but this pairing of yours doesn't seem to have a purpose, it's just a cross with another cross, with another cross, not even sticking to one cross,

this was what i ment you say it so well Carrington, id call it a Bitsie , ie' Bits of this and Bits of that,
i looked up the Saarloos they look lovley shame anyone would mix them up,
but im no expert OP seems to have researched and knows what she wants , but i do still think the breeder is taking the mick , like others have said, but then i understand where your coming from if you realy want the Dog but i doubt the breeder will let you buy him without the conditions he wants,  which are All in his favour,

I have found that, in general, there are fewer health problems with well bred dogs of this type but the hip score is essential as the GS features so heavily in their lines.

I don't think that's a very valid point I'm afraid. My own main breed, Malinois, have virtually no health problems. We eye test (never yet heard of one that failed), we hip score (breed average just 9) and that's it, incredibly healthy breed -but they are still a recognised pedigree breed. :) It's perfectly possible to find healthy pedigree dogs.

I can only echo Jewel:

"There is no possiblilty I would agree to his 'terms'. If he wants the boy to use at stud then I would suggest he keeps him, he gets him hipscored and he can then allow you to use him and in return he can have second pick of the litter (if you decide to go ahead). You could then keep the pick of the litter yourself as a companion for your girl. I would still think long and hard about it though if I were you


Anything else is taking you for a sucker, which I'm sure you're not.

My point would be that all pedigree dogs were originally wolves and in developing many breeds people have put looks above health - hips, eyes, breathing and whelping problems etc. These dogs were bred back to the original wolf to try and eliminate health problems and create a 'perfect' specimen. I'm not saying anything about other breeds as I've owned and loved pedigrees myself and probably will do again.

BUT all breeds started somewhere - somebody said "I'd like one of those but smaller" or whatever. I personally said "I'd like a wolf but tamer" lol.

OK... so I don't have the money, time or experience in genetics to create a new breed. Nor do I have the heart to cull 'failed' dogs as would be necessary. But I am interested in seeing where this breed goes and how close to 'perfect' they can get it.

Regarding my original question, I think I will ask if he's prepared to sell me the dog outright and take it from there. I'd need to talk to the Northern Inuit Society and other organisations before I make any decisions on breeding from either one. I will probably have one or both neutered but have my own worries about that too as I've had 2 healthy dogs die during the op and it's made me very cautious about 'unnecessary' GA's.

**EDIT TO ADD - Jewell & Jeangenie - that's another possibility. I get a companion from her line with his excellent dog without having to worry about accidental matings in future or her having the op... just the whelping worries to deal with!

I get a companion from her line with his excellent dog without having to worry about accidental matings in future or her having the op... just the whelping worries to deal with!

If you want another one like your girl then by far the best option to try is to buy another puppy from the same dam and sire, although even doing this there is no guarantee (or even likelyhood with the outcrossing) that she'll produce another like herself in looks or temperament.
When you are dealing with outcrosses, genetically there is no guarantee that you'll get the same.  Each time an egg is conceived, it's like throwing hundreds of die (dice) in the air at the same time and expecting to get two results the same - it doesn't happen!

The problem with not line breeding, whether pedigree dogs or cross breeds, is that there are so many different genes involved, that you have no way of telling what you're going to get because you don't know what genes the pups will inherit from which ancestor. :(

When people say that they've checked the pedigrees and there are no similar relatives, that just disaster waiting to happen because although that may not share the same genes, they may certainly share the same problems, which are then multiplied in the puppies. :(

When new breeds were established in the past, it was done by people with land, facilites and staff.  Maybe half a dozen like minded people would get together all with a number of dogs and bitches and they'd keep whole litters so that they could see how they matured.  That takes an enormous amount of time and money.  They'd then choose those that were most like what they were aiming for and then use a first cross dog from one kennel on a first cross bitch from another kennel and again run on the entire litter.  Between members of their own 'club' this would go on for many generations until the pups would be produced 'to type' and a new breed would be established over a number of years.

I have no problem with a group of people with serious intend and the required genetic knowledge, getting togather to begin to establish a new breed.  But these days people are crossing anything with anything and producing a hotchpotch in the litters many of which are off loaded onto rescue because by 12-18 months they are untrained and uncontrolable because they are in the wrong homes for their temperaments.  They stand as much chance of forming another 'breed' as flying to the moon! :(

Just curious :) and not 'having a go'

Why didn't you buy a pure bred Sarloos or Czechoslovakian Wolfdog? Both breeds are, I think, available in the UK (and look almost identical to a non-breed specialist). They breed very true, so if you had two they WOULD look like each other. If you go ahead with this cross between four different breeds/types you could end up with a huge variety, even in the one litter.

They stand as much chance of forming another 'breed' as flying to the moon!

To go slightly OT here... what about the Labradoodle and other 'designer dogs'? Once you breed a labxpoodle to another labxpoodle and the offspring of similar matings surely the resulting dog is not a labxpoodle but something almost of it's own??

Just asking out of interest now, nothing to do with my OP!

Both are incredibly hard to find and very, very expensive :) The Czech was briefly accepted by the KC but after DEFRA classified it as a dangerous wild animal The KC withdrew all registration papers and much confusion followed. DEFRA have since clarified that once the animal is 3 generations away from the wolf it no longer counts as dangerous or wild but I don't think things have changed with regards as to registering them - I'm sure someone will put me right.

>Once you breed a labxpoodle to another labxpoodle and the offspring of similar matings surely the resulting dog is not a labxpoodle but something almost of it's own??

Even when there is a set aim in a cross-breeding, once you mate two first crosses (lets say lab and poodle) to each other you still have no guarantee of result. Statistically lab x poodle mated to lab x poodle will give you one puppy that inherits mainly lab characteristics from both parents, one that inherits mainly poodle characteristics and two which inherit a mix. The more different breeds involved, the greater the gamble.

Once you breed a labxpoodle to another labxpoodle and the offspring of similar matings surely the resulting dog is not a labxpoodle but something almost of it's own??  Just asking out of interest now,

OK let's talk a hypothetical situation.  Say that a group of people wanted to develop a breed with the non moulting coat and intelligence of the Poodle but with the 'gentleness' of the Labrador.  They'd also decide what other qualities that they wanted, ie height, weight maybe colour etc.  These say 6 people would all buy the healthiest 3 dogs and 3 bitches with the important qualities of each breed, so they'd start with a reasonable sized gene pool, and they'd mate them together.  Each breeder would produce 6 litters (36 in all) and once they'd matured, they'd get together and select those who best conformed to their idea of the new breed.  eg those with moulting coats would eliminated from the breeding program but those who best fitted the new breed would then be mated together.  The best producing original sires and dams would be mated again to enlarge the gene pool.  This would be repeated over and over again until by perhaps the 5th and 6th generation, all pups would still be half Poodle and half Labrador (although in Australia they've done all sorts of permutations) all the pups would be similar in type and bearing the temperament, health, looks and soundness that was the original dream.

What's happening with Labradoodles is that the world and his wife is still crossing Poodles with Labradors and producing pups where no two look the same.  I've not seen anybody with space, time or long term vision to establish anything consistant.  They're sold as 'good for allergy sufferers' and most are not, which is why there are so many in rescue! :(

Just my opinion of course having been a breeder for 25 years.  Hope that's interesting... :)

Both are incredibly hard to find and very, very expensive
Sorry but that's no reason (excuse?) for crossing them ..... :(

I agree, just because you have 2 great dogs doesn't mean a mating will result in a litter of great pups/dogs. My original post was because I was having doubts about what the breeder (someone I have listenend to and trusted) was suggesting I do. I don't want to turn Zaska into a money making project and I don't want to cause any harm to any of the reputations of the breeds involved by allowing an inappropriate mating. When he initially suggested we buy this male to breed with her I laughed and said no but he's since come up with offers of dropped prices, breeding support, help with finding homes etc, etc, etc. It's almost like he's desperate to get the 2 together. I just wanted a bit of a reality check and you guys have given me that (and even managed to be gentle while doing it). My first instinct was right.

ETA - and the labradoodle info was very interesting thank you!

It's almost like he's desperate to get the 2 together.
Mmmmm.  Maybe he's having trouble selling puppies (like many at the moment!) but thinks he can get some money from you for his dog!  Really doesn't sound good. :(

I don't want to turn Zaska into a money making project
I think there's little chance of that in the current financial climate.  More likely that at 8 weeks you'll still have 8 boisterous puppies eating you out of house and home and honestly, that would be a nightmare however well you think you'd cope with no homes on the horizon!  I know someone with a nice litter of well bred ShihTzu pups.  5 pups and NONE sold at 8 weeks!  4 booked before the mating and all have pulled out due to various insecurities.  350 litters of pedigree and cross breeds on the famous site - some unregistered for £250 with 'not registered as not necessary for pets'!

I agree, just because you have 2 great dogs doesn't mean a mating will result in a litter of great pups/dogs.
Because of the mixture behind them, it doesn't only mean that the pups won't necessarily be great - it means that they won't necessarily be similar, either to Dam & Sire or even each other in the litter!  What would you sell them as?  How could you tell new owners what their look/size/temperament will be like because you don't know the grandparents and great grandparents and the pups could take after any of them or even further back.........  You'd have to be thick skinned, broad shoulder and/or ignorant and not give two hoots about the new homes to do that sort of breeding.  That's obviously not you or you wouldn't have had doubts in the first place! :)

Zaska, I've just read one of your older posts.  Please read it again after what's been said on this thread. :( :(

he's running down his pack and he's offered us a male of around the same age as he reminds him so much of our bitch - soft, well behaved, calm etc - and he likes the life that Zaska has but feels she's missing out on company.

Would I be imagining that he's not selling pups?  Can't afford to keep all the adults?  Is making this male sound attractive to you?  Exactly the same temperament and just what SHE needs!  And wants money from you to off load the dog into a good home?

Westcoast you could be right. When I initially asked him about buying a dog it was the one he's offerring now that I enquired about. He wanted to keep him at that time to use in his breeding program if he matured how he expected. I guess he underestimated Zaska or he'd probably of kept her too.

He tells me that he's trying not to have so many adult dogs on site - and that the males are the ones he's rehoming... I suppose it only takes one male to service his bitches.

A lot of the replies have set alarm bells ringing and I think that I should avoid entering into any long term plans with him.

I do like the dog tho, so may still buy him as a pet.

I suppose it only takes one male to service his bitches.
Certainly if all you want to do is produce puppies to sell.  But after our discussion, you can see that it's not the way to form a new breed .........
If he was a quality dog who had the attributes that he is looking for in his new breed, he would NEED him in his breeding program!
Maybe you can now see him in a different light?  He sounds like a good talker! ;)

Zaska - go by your gut instinct - you had no thoughts about breeding from your girl until her breeder started trying to dangle carrots in front of you .......

Let's suppose you take on the boy - as you say, he isn't housetrained - he's used to being in kennels, so you have to house train him first off.   Who decides what hip score is good?   And if either of them have not good hips - what then?

And what happens, if when you do take him on, he and your bitch just don't mate?   It does happen sometimes when dogs live together!  What then?   She gets into whelp - what arrangements can you then make to keep them separate when she does whelp?   What if the other chap wants to use him at stud whilst you have puppies under foot?   Would you want other bitches on your home territory then?   Your bitch might not be very happy.

What if she needs a c-section - loses the litter - or worse still scenario - what if you lose her?

> What if she needs a c-section - loses the litter - or worse still scenario - what if you lose her?

Or has a large litter of totally unpredictable temperament and you are responsible for them, have to find suitable homes for them and be responsible for them for life.

The temperament of these large and powerful mixed-breed dogs cannot be predicted safely.

"I do like the dog tho, so may still buy him as a pet."
Good for you, if so get him neutered! :D
I understand (correct me if wrong) that some male dogs' temperament can change if they are used for stud - would you be comfortable with that?

Thank you all for a very interesting discussion!

I've slept on it and decided to  make the 400mile round trip to visit the dog with Zaska to see how they get along. If we bring him home then it will be as a companion to her and one of them will be neutered asap! Of course this depends on the breeder agreeing to it, but if his first concern is getting the money for him then I don't see why it should be a problem!

I have friends who live in France with purebred Sarloos - more wolf than GSD, the breeder has owned and bred them for many, many years.  Her's act nothing like GSD's and are very wolf - like.  This friend is also close friends with Sean Ellis (The Wolfman) and they know of a man who breeds Sarloos, Czech wolfdogs and Inuit crosses in the UK and he is awful!  In the last year he bought a bitch from France, within a month or 2 mated her and then shot her dead because she wouldn't let him near her new born pups.

I'm not saying this is where you got your dog from but it does make me wonder as this man likes to make a bob or two from his dogs.

I recently got a new pup, offered to me in partnership - I paid nothing for this pup and signed no contract.  I trust the breeder and the breeder trusts me.  I will pay for all health tests and if I decide to breed (which is a big IF) then the breeder will have pick of the litter...however as she has said the timing might not be right for myself or her so we will see what happens down the line.

I would think long and hard about what YOU want to do, don't be railroaded into anything and remember he does seem to be using your time, money etc to get what he wants.

There is a tenuous link between Zaska and Sean Ellis. Basically the guy I've been referring to as her breeder didn't actually breed her at all but bought her in to breed from then had to sell her when the pack didn't accept her. I didn't deliberatley mislead but only thought afterwards that strictly speaking he wasn't her breeder! Sean is quite closely connected to her original breeder - who I will be contacting so they know what the guy they sold her to initially is doing.

She is very wolf like in she needs to have constant company or her seperation anxiety means she howls and tries to escape - literally through doors! She also acts like a wolf when she encounters another dog - if they are gentle and quiet she will play but if they are rowdy or loud she will run away. I've never heard her bark - not even when the door knocks and every stranger is greeted like a long lost friend!

Lol - I took her to meet a young pup the other day, just 8 weeks and a tiny breed, the pup barked at her and Zaska jumped into my lap! She isn't timid as such but does not like confrontation :)

I'd love to be in a position to own a Saarloos, and maybe one day I will know enough and earn enough to do it.

Maybe I should just forget this dog and ask her original breeder to put me on their list... but he is such a lovely boy!

She is very wolf like in she needs to have constant company or her seperation anxiety means she howls and tries to escape - literally through doors!
They wouldn't be easy pups to home then? :(


Maybe I should just forget this dog and ask her original breeder to put me on their list
Now that sounds like a better idea..........

>They wouldn't be easy pups to home then?

Definitely a very limited market; easy to be left with several rapidly-growing unsold pups becoming adolescents.

Yes the market would be VERY limited. I take it for grante that she needs company because of her breeding. She's with me all the time and we walk for a couple of hours a day, rain or shine. I guess I'm one of the few who can do this as most people don't work from home and will pick a breed because of it's looks or the good points, while disregarding the slightly more negative parts?

Decision made. Zaska will never have pups and, if I do end up with this other dog, neither will he! :)

Great decision. :) You're being very sensible and I hope you do end up with this dog as a pet as it sounds like he would have a wonderful home.

> Decision made. Zaska will never have pups and, if I do end up with this other dog, neither will he! :-) <

So glad that you have reached a decision - and such a sensible one, too!

Let's hope that the boy is lovely, that your girl accepts him, and that they can both live happy (neutered ;) ) lives with you - I'm sure they will!

To go slightly OT here... what about the Labradoodle and other 'designer dogs'? Once you breed a labxpoodle to another labxpoodle and the offspring of similar matings surely the resulting dog is not a labxpoodle but something almost of it's own??


people can name them what ever they like know days i surpose they get more money for them  calling it a Labradoodle rather than a mongrel,

> My point would be that all pedigree dogs were originally wolves and in developing many breeds people have put looks above health - hips, eyes, breathing and whelping problems etc. These dogs were bred back to the original wolf to try and eliminate health problems and create a 'perfect' specimen.

I take it that as health is the important aspect of this breed, the dogs used to breed with the wolves were actually healthy dogs (little point using unhealthy ones as that is not setting up a good foundation for a healthy breed), but if healthy dogs were available for this, it negates the need to introduce the wolf in the first place, unless of course the look of the wolf was the sought after aspect..

From what I can gather it was mainly health that Saarloos was aiming for. His initial 'experiment' was to breed a dog immune to distemper and he saw the wolf as the strongest (purest?) dog. He used the healthiest specimens he could find and did, to a point, eliminate issues such as HD. I think that the resaoning behind it was that pedigree dogs have been so manipulated over time that reintroducing the original dna of a wolf could only strengthen them - I bit like really drastic line breeding.

Saarloos wanted to produce a guard dog very like the GS but without health issues. Unfortunatley he misunderstood the wolf like nature of these dogs which makes them totally wrong for guarding but they are used in several countries as guide dogs, search dogs and therapy dogs to visit hospitals etc. This suits them much better as they have no agression and a very strong urge to please.