Bit long winded sorry.

One of my dogs is not very toy focused. And I have been trying to get him interested in the dumb bell.  We had been using clicker to get him at least trying to get him to open his mouth so I can put it it. It seemed to be working and I went to a class last night. The instructor said it would take forever doing that way....took him and the dumb bell off me and made him open his mouth put the dumb bell in and held his collar under his chin so he couldn't spit it out.
The dog while not enthused was still happy enough....so the guy went further by forcing his mouth open putting the  DB in holding again under the chin by his collar so he couldn't spit it out and making him walk a few paces with it in his mouth...then told me to click and treat him.
Today I tried to practice by try to get him to take it on his own and he did his best to avert his head. I tried showing him a treat...I tried to gee him up so he got excited but the minute I showed him the DB he was at best not interested but averting his head...trying all sorts of other things in the hope maybe I wouldn't make him take it.
Some of the other girls in the class said the forcing method worked for them and he would eventually not be so reluctant to take the DB. I expressed some concern about the method and they seem convinced it would work for him too.
Although last night the forcing seemed to work a little bit...today it seems the whole thing has been set back and I am not really sure what to do now...I have a feeling it is going to take far more work now to get him to even look at the DB now.
Whilst I would like to proceed at a good pace ...since he seems to be enjoying the rest of the exercises I really think the exercises have put back what progress we made and today during training I tried it once and just annoyed myself because I knew it was wrong.  He knew I was annoyed and probably thought it was his fault which made it worse I suspect. He had been also playing with a ball and a soft toy (which took a lot of time to get him to do as well) and now he will chase it but wont put it in his mouth.
The guy running the class is well known and very into obedience....he told me my boy was very stubborn and it would eventually click in his mind he didn't have the option to refuse to take the DB.

What can I do to fix this?

I didn't understand last night....how forcing him to take the DB would give him the desire to actually go out and retrieve. It seems in hindsight to not be as logical as it was put across to me.

I have two others I am training and one is TOY mad and over does it with the DB and another ( my Little pom cross) is like my big boy...happy to bat a toy around but not keen on lifting. I have him taking DB using clicker (like I started w/ other one) and he is doing ok. I accept little boy is very simple (bless him) but quite smart and he loves clicker work.
Big boy just wants on his back for belly rub and if he thinks there is food on offer it is very hard to get him to concentrate on tasks that require more in depth thinking. His heel work is coming on wonderful as are his recalls etc. but getting in his head (before last night) that playing and taking the DB is fun....is a hard chore. And I worry now I have ruined it for a long time to come....
Quite mad at myself now....it started off because I wanted to show off his progress of taking the DB where he hadn't before the the guy sort of stepped in to show me how to do it faster. :-(  :-( which now means it could be even longer. :-(

I need a good kicking...:-)

I do feel sorry for you.  I hate to see the forced method used, it can put a sensitive dog off for life.  I will try and help you with some suggestions, but first of all don't try the dumbell with him at all for a couple of weeks.

What is the centre of the dumbell like?  Is it hard? If so, try putting some cloth around it to make it softer in the mouth. Or what I did was put lots of masking tape around it to soften it.

It sounds like both you and him understand the clicker. The idea of the clicker being the dog works out what you want by himself, you click and treat immediately.  So, kneel down on the floor, just hold the dumbell infront of him, if he looks at it, click, move on to if he moves his head towards it click, then the big step, if he touches it click.  Don't rush these stages, they will take time as he has been put off of it. These are your foundation steps.  At anytime later he refuses to take the dumbell, always go back to these.

When you have him confidently touching it and happy about it, hold it towards the floor and repeat. Eventually putting it on to the floor, keeping your hand on it at first, then taking it away.  At no stage are you asking him to hold it, just be comfortable with it.  After he is happy with this, withold the click until he puts his mouth around it, then click.  I am sure you are getting the idea now, hopefully you can build this up until he picks it up.  As soon as he does pick it up, click immediately, let him drop it and get the treat.  You can then build up the time he holds it for before you click.

Don't let your trainer anywhere near him at this time, you will have to be firm, otherwise everything you have acheived will be undone.

Don't rush any of the steps, take your time, build his confidence.

Good Luck, let us know how you get on.

Sandrah

Thanks for the reply.
Thankfully no harm seems to have been done. :-)
I was working with the little Pom x and the big boy was watching and was very keen to offer to hold so I let him and he got to a count of 10 and I took it before he dropped it.
It seems peer pressure works almost as good as a clicker..:-)
He really wanted to try when he was watching the other guy do it and because I was working someone else he was being refused which in turn seems to have gotten him to be very keen on the idea.

So we will carry on as before with the clicker and never worry about bully tactics. My big boy is such a soft thing bulling doesn't work and I should have known better.

Cheers and Thanks....may tap you for help in the future...:-)

Oh and we have nice dumb bells with cording around the bar so it's nice and comfy to hold. :-)

Keep your dog away from that trainer, he obviously doesn't know as much as he thinks he does. I'd be interested to know what breed your boy is and if the trainer has ever trained that breed before.
I've never force trained a retrieve, always done it through shaping, interestingly none of my dogs have ever mouthed the dumbell once trained and nearly always had clear retrieves in the ring. (It's heelwork I have problems teaching!)

Take a look at the following link, it's a great resource for teaching retrieve through clicker training, if a bit long!

http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/retrieve.html

personally id say if the dog isnt interested in this activity then i would find another activity that he does enjoy!!!

Hi.  I work my dogs in obedience using the clicker.  Most non clicker trainers have no idea how the clicker works or the theory behind it and are therefore very quick to dismiss it. Force retrieves will work with some dogs characters (unfortunately reinforcing this type of training), but a sensitive dog will definitely not work that way.  Clicker training gives a very strong depth of understanding and seems like it takes longer than more traditional methods.  However the end result is so much more reliable.  The small increments we use in clicker training to train a specific behaviour (ie shaping) build very quickly so it does not take long to teach the whole retrieve. 

If you really like the clicker method find an obedience clicker trainer.  Which area are you?  Don't mix the clicker and more "hands on" methods as you will confuse and possibly worry your dog. 

Good luck with the training Freewayz and yes you should definately ditch the trainer that tried to get you to train a force retrieve.
The wonderful thing about clicker training is that the more you do the quicker the dog will pick up other things you teach it-ie clicker savvy dogs will freely offer you other behaviours once they understand what the game is about-so things just get easier.

f the dog isnt interested in this activity then i would find another activity that he does enjoy

It isn't that he doesn't enjoy it. He just doesn't know how. He loves the other exercises and this is just something he will enjoy once he knows how to play the game. :-)
The instructor just seemed to want him to do it faster and showed a lack of patience and did not take the individual dog into consideration. He is used to working high drive BC and I guess is used to getting quick results.
And it was my fault for not using my better judgment.
I am in N.I and am not too sure if there are any purpose made clicker classes. My boys are all very smart and used to clicker type training (I haven't used clicker at the start with the older ones but was always used key word and treats)
Even tonight when practicing....the big man is now up to 10 seconds and holding while I touch and tap the dumb bell....only dropping when he gets his click. So progressing quick enough. Now just to increase the time and get him to take a step into me with it will be the next goal.
I really like the clicker.....my wee JR cross does some really cool stuff through clicker. This week he is learning his right foot from his left....then he is going to learn to lift his back leg as if to wee...:-)

Cheers and thanks

Sounds like you're doing brilliantly,Freewayz.The back leg lift is a good trick-my papillon lifts her back leg and stretches it as far as it will go.Silly but fun!

Freewayz,

You were doing things the right way and actually sounds like you could teach your trainer a thing or two.  At the moment it does sound like he doesn't get what is required which will come if you keep up the clicker work and make it fun for him, but if that trainer was to do that more than once it could have a lasting effect on him wanting to retrieve and put him off for good. 

The way your trainer showed you is quicker if what you are aiming for is a dog that doesn't enjoy what he is doing and doesn't want to pick things up voluntarily.  Clicker training something like that may take longer but not always and it makes it much more reliable and the dog enjoys it.

Make it really rewarding for him and don't put on any pressure for a few days.  I personally wouldn't go back to a trainer like that but if you do, don't let go of your lads lead again.  You sound like your doing just fine :-)