Moved from here

Well, here we go, lets upset everyone!!!! I can only speak for my own breed, but I would never ever feed a Wolfhound on a true BARF diet. I wont go into the reasons why, Id put to many peoples noises out of joint!!! ;)

I wish you would give the reasons Sis. The view that lurkers may get of BARF worries me and I think maybe some of us (well me anyway :-)) are inclined to be big girl's blouses on the subject because we don't want to start a row or upset people we like and respect.

Phil,

Without wanting a war to start why would you not feed barf im intrested as I hear good things about barf but would be intresting to hear the bad side..
By the way I don't feed barf and don't intend to start.
Not for or against the barf diet as I don't really no much about it..

Karen

Hi Karen, Anne & Liz, I want a discussion not an argument as well, though I'm not sure that I'm Liz civilised :).

I first came across BARF on this forum and the thing that bothered me about it is covered in the following post to Christine on the "Question for John ~ Ref: Eye Testing" thread.
________________________________________________

If you look at old photographs of wolfhounds and deerhounds many have what would now be seen as deformities never mind faults. I'm well sure that some of those dogs had painful puppyhoods, and would now be referred to orthopaedic specialists. Considering that most of the photographed dogs were well known, I dread to think what the 'poor' specimens were like. But I suspect that the odd shaped limbs on those dogs had very little to do with heredity or testing and an awful lot to do with nutrition.

These old photographs are the main reason that BARF and home-made diets scare me skinny in rapidly growing giant breeds. I feed adults on a home-made diet myself and used to do so with pups, but many of my grey hairs are due to worry about calcium/phosphorus ratios etc. IMHO it takes a experience and probably research (in material that isn't an easy read for people without a scientific background) to make a 'safe' diet for giant breed pups. Don't want to offend (think you are a proponent of BARF?) and I hope I'm wrong, but I fear that we may soon see some of those pictures come to life again in real dogs raised on BARF etc by inexperienced people.

________________________________________________

The dangers of an unbalanced diet in large/giant puppies and youngsters is still my main worry, although on searching the web, I can't find anyone else who is worried about it from that POV.

Once I started to read more about BARF I began to think about other aspect and hopefully they will be discussed fully. For now I agree with most of what is said on this site to a greater or lesser extent.

But I only became a true hard-core opponent when I found my way to Billinghurst's BARFWorldsite. I was surprised by the heavy handed marketing from someone who claims that he is on a mission "to restore health to the pets of our world through evolutionary nutrition", amazed by page on his "Consultative Practice Focused on Evolutionary Nutrition" (see the Note!) and disgusted by the fact that despite his strident claims he has yet to do the research. I'm not a nutritionist and haven't read the book (will order it now that we are debating this properly), but much of the information on BARF itself looks to me like persuasively packaged pseudoscientific codswallop. I know we are trying to keep this civil, but I can't think of another way to describe it.

I hadn't found it in my heart to give Dr Billinghurst $39.00 so that I can see what is in the Members' Area and in Carnivora magazine and read the World Wide BARF Association board but if anyone wants to know I'll do it now. I did lurk on a group that Billinghurst began and contributed to for a few days but stopped when a new poster informed the group that her dog had died when a poultry perforated its maxillary sinus within days of changing the poor thing to BARF. I can't find that group any more so I may be wrong, but as I remember it Billinghurst sympathised but wondered if the owner's vet might have misdiagnosed the problem.

I hope I haven't offended anyone too much but I do feel strongly about this.

Thanks Sharon
I promise I will read the links later ;)
I don't know much about this diet at all -thats why I'm interested to hear all sides .
My personal worry has always been the balanced diet .
Maybe I'm lazy or not well enough organised but I find it hard enough to balance the kids diets without worrying about the dog as well !
But then my mini-brain tells me that dogs are meat eaters and them little brown pellets just aint appetising
or maybe I'm looking at it from the wrong angle ,
Anyway....it interests me so I will watch this thread alot
thanks

Liz :)

Sharon thanks for links I shall have a look later when kids are in bed and I have some peace.

Karen

Hi Sharon,yes I see your worries that someone could just decide to go ahead & think oh OK i`ll just give the dog some bones & then we end up with malnourished dogs. And I agree if people go ahead with that idea then malnourished dogs will happen!! That is not the way at all.On the other hand we now have a wealth of information from numourous sources that anyone with enough interest can read up on nutrition for dogs & given from animal nutritionists. As for Billinghurst, well I don`t follow his diet. There are others who are less shall I say commercial?? I also read health lists & web sites that are geared for raw/natural foods & they are presented in a gentle friendly fashion where I can learn more without being dictated to. I don`t go to the Billinghurst lists either.
Yes there is a danger of a bone doing as you say but feeding dry/complete is not without dangers. When my own dogs were on it they used to get that thing where they inhaled/sniffed up???? and would not breathe?? I don`t know what it`s called but I heard of some dogs choking like that.
Labradors are not giant breeds but they are large & I have 2 youngsters of 19mths & they have been brought up on this natural diet & they have no deformaties, lot of bone & substance & have been hipped/shoulders & elbowed xrayed with great results. I do agree that it`s something that should be researched thoroughly first tho. After I read up on it I felt confident enough to try it. I just feel I am totally responsable for my dogs & if I can feed them as well as, or better than the commercial products then I will. :)
Christine, Spain.

"we now have a wealth of information from numourous sources that anyone with enough interest can read up on nutrition for dogs & given from animal nutritionists"

Hi, Christine, yes there is plenty of information though its very difficult to assess such findings as there are about home made diets because they are all different. And there is a wealth of experience from past generations of dog breeders and owners, though they didn't always get it right (see what I said to the other Christine about pre 1970s giant sighthounds).

But my concern is about people having enough interest. Some simply don't and others don't seem to know enough to realise that they should be interested. Look at some of the past posts here and elsewhere and weep! I know I'm caught in the boring rut of my own breeds but even if there is a mild interest, sorry, but IMO a 'popular science' paperback or two just doesn't cut it when it comes to a giant sighthound pup.

Hi everyone,

great topic, I have enjoyed reading it, as I have recently (six months) started feeding raw and have seen benefits in at least two of my dogs who have health problems. That said, I must agree with you Sharon about people's interest. I have read extensively, am on several lists, but to me most importantly have a vet who is interested and knowlegdeable and goes through my dogs diets with me. The dogs are all in great shape, look well etc but they are all adults and were all adult when they started on barf.

Theresa

Hi Theresa, lovely to hear you are seeing your dogs benefit with it even tho it`s only 2.
Was just thinking why don`t you list what you see as the pros & cons for raw, like the suggestion at the beginning of this thread. I for one would love to read them cos I`d like hearing what others have found & others would too I`m sure.
Christine, Spain.

Hi Christine

Sorry for the confusing post, I actually have all seven of mine on raw food now.
I started on raw due to Nanouki's atopy on the advice of my vet having been looking into prior to that for several months.

The benefits I have seen with raw are as follows:
1. The dogs enjoy their food more and I have found my gulpers actually slow down and chew properly.
2. They are less flatulent and produce less waste as well as drinking less water.
3. Nanouki has had no problems with his skin on raw, possibly due to no harvest mites in food and/or no additives.
4. Loppy my old man has his diet made out for him to specificially suit his needs, he has slight heart problems and arthritis and my vet has advised on what best to feed him and what supplements to use etc.

I have also found that after two years of tests, various foods, biopsies etc, my two bitches who always had very bad diarrhoea and no cause was found, went solid immediately after they started on raw.
All of the dogs condition has improved since they went onto raw also, they look great, are toned, have lovely coats, apart from my Irish setter that is, whose coat was never the same after he was neutered.

Now those are the pros.
The cons for me are:
1. Sourcing the food, I now have a routine for getting tripe from one source on a certain day, turkey another, chicken another, lamb another as we do not have AMP or landywoods over here.
2. Preparing the food: This does actually take a lot of time, approx 5-6 hours a week for me, especially as Loppy has one diet, Nanouki has another and the other five have a fairly similiar one.
3. Monitoring the dogs as they eat, to make sure they are eating properly and not gulping down. I do still worry that one day a bone will go down the wrong way.
4. Supplementing: As I have the two dogs with ill health, their supplements are different from the others and I have to keep a diary of whose supplements are due when.

It's not for everyone and it takes time and effort.

That said I would be slow to go back to processed food.

Theresa

Hi Sharon, I really do understand about *read some of the posts & weep*! Words fail me with some of them & I feel for the dogs really. In cases like that, yes I agree complete foods would be best for their dogs, rather than them being malnourished thru lack of knowledge.
But lets talk about the people who are interested & I think a lot who read this thread are.I found a book by Dr Richard Pitcairn the most helpful out of them all. He gives the nutritional values of just about any food you could want to give your dog, also the calc/phos. rates as well & it`s all listed in an easy way to understand way. He even goes further & tells you the nut.values of *mix & match* foods. He is not only a homeopathic vet but also has a degree in animal nutrition as well & that is a lot more than average vets have. On this basis, I trust what he has to say. As I have said before, I was having so many problems when my lot were on the complete, I just had no choice but to find an alternative but I did a lot of reasearch first. I`m just going to add here that the breeder of one of my males made a stipulation when I got him as a pup that I had to feed him raw for the first 12mths of his life, which I did and he has had the least probs than the rest of my dogs, they know more about dogs than I can only ever dream of knowing, just wish I`d have listened sooner.
Christine, Spain.

Hi Christine, the Pitcairn book sounds useful, even to someone like me who feeds home made but doesn't believe in BARF/alternative stuff - Thanks :). We seem to have largely reached agreement here which is nice :). I still have some reservations but on the whole think raw/home made and even BARF is fine as long as the owner is prepared to do serious homework and better still has practical experience or an experienced mentor. I know you don't like Billinghurst but the BARF crusade suggests that by buying a paperback you can become an instant expert on canine nutrition. I don't think its that easy but guess that a high proportion of the people who take it up never get beyond the book. Meanwhile Billinghurst is laughing all the way to the bank :(.

My wider gripe is with well marketed 'pop science' - or to me unproven, unresearched pseudoscience. It always sounds superficially convincing and promises to do everything including the housework. You linked Hilary Jupp's site so you've probably read the EFT™ section . It would be wonderful if we could really cure perforated eyes by remote touch without having to go to through the hard work of vet school and gaining experience but you don't have to be as cynical as me to have doubts! Life doesn't really provide such quick fixes. Yet this sort of thing is not only sold for real money to the unsuspecting, the vendors convince well meaning & genuine people like Hilary to do much of their marketing for free.

EFT is an extreme example and like most, its harmless, but badly researched pop/'alternative' pseudoscience diets can do real and proven damage to children and I think its reasonable to guess it can do the same to pups. To stray sligthly off subject, I think were also going to run into problems if a significant minority buy into 'alternative' views on vaccination (and to a lesser extent on worming in dogs).

We seem to be living in a sort of anti-Enlightenment period at the moment where without a shred of real evidence people are as willing to believe in quick fixes and cure-alls as they once were in witchcraft - and I sometimes despair.

Hi Sharon, well I decided the EFT wasn`t for me & didn`t get much further than a couple of lines, but to each their own.
I think I have missed some threads cos I thought you fed complete sorry! So please tell me what do you feed your dogs on? :) And yes agree totally that research is a must for non commercial feeding. My mum always used to say *if a jobs worth doing, it`s worth doing well* and I`ve found out the hard way how true that is! :) Why are mums always sooooo right?????? :) :) :)
So I try to apply this with most things now,there is no easy way & if you cut corners, well sooner or later your going to come a cropper.
Think we need a whole new thread for vaccine alternatives/nosodes so I`m not even going to stray slightly off subject :)
But agree people really do need to be very careful with all the hype over pseudoscience.
Christine,Spain.

Hi Christine, I fee pups/youngsters with giant breed puppy/junior complete but give home made to adults. Don't want to bore everyone with weights & measures for wolfies vs deers, and oldies vs working dogs but if you are interested drop me an [email sight.hounds@virgin.net]e-mail[/email] :).

Some links that I think are not inflammatory! Hope you all do too :)
http://home.attbi.com/~mstraus/dogfeeding.html
http://www.irishwolfhounds.org/nutrition.htm#top
http://www.caberfeidh.com/HolisticCare.htm
link]http://www.bullovedbulldogs.com/barf.htm[/link]
Christine, Spain.

Hi Christine, thanks for the links. I know Hilary Jupp and the Caber Feidh sites (Numbers 2 & 3) of old :-). Will read the number 4 and the links on number 1 later and then eply to your posts. Is it OK if I take taurine & DCM to a new thread? As you probably know, DCM is one of my pet hobby horses and taurine/L-carnatine deficiency is interesting.

Hi Sharon, now I`ll let you all know just how much I really know :) but what is DCM?? Good idea to start a new thread on the other stuff.
Christine, Spain

Christine, dilated cardiomyopathy.

DCM - also a bane of Dobermanns and no definitive test to help us eridicate it

Christine

I know I'm a bit of a pessimist at the best of times Christine but I doubt that there will be one in the near future. Genetic markers have been hyped to the point where I feel too many people are expecting genetics to solve all of their problems tomorrow, so they can do what they like today. But there still are few useful genetic markers for humans and as far as I know none in the pipeline with a wide application. So I'm not holding my breath for a DCM marker in dogs. Which leaves us with plain old-fashioned unexciting non-headline worthy pedigree research - which I suppose is an illustration of the sort of common sense I'm trying to talk about.

Hi Sharon

Do you know about the research using puppies tails re DCM (in the US)- hopefully this will bring forth something. I can't help with this at all though as I refuse to dock my pups.

I suspect that if a genetic test is found for DCM (in Dobermanns anyway) that it will be of little help as so many families (like humans with various heart problems) have dogs that suffer from it

Pedigree research only helps if people tell the truth!

Christine

Hi Christine, no I don't know about that and I'd be very grateful for any info you have or pointers to where I can find out about it. Agree that markers will not be of much use in the breeds where cardiomyopathy is endemic :(.

"Pedigree research only helps if people tell the truth!"

Too true :(.

Hi Phillippa and Sharon,
As you know I feed BARF but that does not mean that I think the world has to, I would like to think that this could be discussed in a civilised way. I would like to hear different points of view and I think that lurkers should hear all sides of a discussion so they can make an informed decision,
Anne

Notice I said discussion not arguement :-D

I really like this quote "I disapprove of what you say,but will defend to the death your right to say it"

I for one would like to hear the pros and cons
In a civilised fashion of course :D

Liz :)

Ok some pros for raw feeding presented in a nice way.
Raw meat & bones are what a dogs digestion & also their teeth are designed to eat.
Keeps teeth sparkling white.
No sloppy poops & what comes out is pure waste, because they digest every bit of nutrition & they stopped eating their own poop.
Water intake is a lot less than when fed dry food, thus less need for them running out more often to do v long pees. (my lot are labs!)
No need for potentially harmful chemicals to be used as my dogs have had no worms since they have been on it, 13/14mths now. It keeps the gut hostile to worms.
Easier if you have a dog with allergies because you can control the ingriedients you give to your dog whereas in complete you can`t.
You can control the quality & amount of protein.
No potentially harmful preservatives being given & that also helps with allergic dogs.
My vet fees have been cut dramatically as I havn`t had to go so much. (well I hav`nt had to take the dogs I mean!) :)
My lot seem much more content & happier & I got thru the summer without resorting to prednisolone & antibiotics, which the previous summer I had seven dogs on due to unspecified allergy & that made ME v happy. :)
Those are my pros & I`ve tried to put them honestly & civily!!!! :) :) :)
Christine, Spain.

Dear Steve,

I've read a lot about BARF both on this site and others. I've read the 'for and against' arguments too.
Sunny is fifteen weeks old and since we had him, he had diarrohea, not eating, etc, etc. I started feeding him raw food with chicken wings, veggies, etc and for two weeks (okay, I know it's not long) he has had normal poos, no dandruff and all his meals have been eaten I'm not sure I have the know how to be a total BARFER but I feel happier preparing my own food for Sunny with a basis on natural rather than processed.
It's intersting reading all the different comments and I guess the thing to remember is that there will always be differingopinions about everything in this world but at the end of the day, you have to do what you feel is best for you dog.

Ruth

OK you asked, Ill tell, but would just like to state this is just mho, really really dont want to start a war!!!!;) Although I have several breeds, I am just going to discuss BARF and Wolfhounds as that is my main moan on the subject. Wolfhounds have a predisposition to bloat. I have been extrememley fortunate and have only had one case in over 21 years. Bloat in laymans terms is too much gas in the stomach, which is unable to get out. I believe that many complete foods, contain "gassy" type contents, and are also heating foods and too high in protein for the Wolfhound as a whole. I feed a combination of green tripe, which is very easy and gentle on the stomach, despite its smell, helps keep weight on my hounds and contains no gassy substances, and greyhound meal. This is very crunchy, low in protein and keeps their teeth nice and clean. My reason against feeding a true barf diet, are the bones!!! Wolfhounds jaws can snap a marrow bone in half, and also break off huge splinters of bone. I do not want these splinters to be swallowed down into an already sensitive digestive system. As for chicken wings, necks etc, my Wolfies would swallow them whole, and think of the blockages that could cause. I try and relate my crew to the wild in feeding terms as much as possible. If you watch a wild life documentary, be it wild dogs or big cats, the first thing they rip open and eat is the stomach ( tripe) Now I know they also eat the fur , skin and bone, which my crew dont, but they have mixer and treats , which helps with all the vitamins and minerals required in a dogs diet. I hate, loath and despise complete foods (no offence meant to anyone) Dogs are meat/flesh eaters, that is why they have the kind of teeth that God gave them, to rip and tear, not to munch on crunchy bits!!!!!! The only exception I make is pregnant bitches, who also have fresh vegetables and red meat added to their diet. I can truly say, hand on heart that my crew do not suffer or have ever suffered from stomach problems, sickness, bad coats or itchy skin. I hope I have not offended anyone with my post, as I say, jmho. I feel that feeding goes in popular highs and lows, and at the moment its the BARF diet. Not long ago it was Hills Science diet, which was supposed to be the best thing since sliced bread, before that Eukanuba. Has it ever dawned on anyone that the chicken that the chicken wings come from, are probalby pumped full of chemicals and growth hormones anyway:)

Hi Philippa, well as you may know one of my pups had a bloat at 3mths of age & it was after eating her dried food meal.Scared me to death I can tell you! That on top off everything else that was happening really got me wanting to learn more about feeding raw food. I do give my lot bones but from a variety of sources, rabbit, quails, oxtails, small chickens that weigh about 1lb to 1lb4oz, they used to be called poussins :) When they first started on this raw food they had learn to chew instead of gulping & everything flying down the throat without touching their teeth but happily now they do chew their food. Also I noticed that after a couple of wks I never saw any bits of bone coming out the other end.I would love to find a supplier of tripe but living in a country where the humans love the stuff I havn`t managed to just yet but I`m still on the look out so I might one day! :) So they get muscle meat in the form of heart, beef,pork & fish & I leave the meat in big pieces for them to tear up themselves. I know about all the stuff that chickens are pumped with & thats why I give my lot other types of meat & not only chicken. On the other hand those chickens also end up in dry/tinned/complete foods as well :) :) (tongue firmly in cheek with a big grin)
Christine, Spain

I cant say that I know a lot about wolfhounds, but I have a friend that does, she owned and bred them for years along with other breeds, she had 1 with bloat, and that was fed a complete diet, she has now changed all her breeds (AND SHE HAS A FEW) onto the barf diet, she has reared pups onto barf and there has never been any deformities or malnourished pups, in fact the dogs have never looked healthier than what they do now, I have GSDS and again they are prone to bloat I lost on only 6 weeks ago, they were fed on a complete at that time, NOT ANYMORE they are not, and to guard against any deficiencies, they get supplements,but not calcium etc, they get kelp, garlic extra vit c,breeders should be trying to avoid major growth spurts on any pups, this will not do them any favours mine are fed a mixof things raw meat being the main source ie green tripe ehich they love tearing at, chicken wings, BUT they do chew theirs although I have a staffie that dosen,t needless to say he does not get them now, they get a holistic mixer, and veg, they also get big marowbones 1x weekly, I suppose I ont feed true barf every day, but at least they are gettinga lot more variety into their diet and getting what nature intended, not kibble

Hi Sis, can't agree about bloat because the gas in bloated dogs has been analysed and its air.

"Wolfhounds jaws can snap a marrow bone in half, and also break off huge splinters of bone"

I never stopped worrying about bones but with Corrib it was either a case of not give them at all (and I do as jaw exercise and for the dog's enjoyment) or try not to think about it :-(.

"As for chicken wings, necks etc, my Wolfies would swallow them whole"

Lewis would swallow the whole ruddy chicken whole, and probably take a chunk out of the coop as well :). Fingers tight crossed, I don't think the risk is unacceptably high with large raw bones like ox femoral heads, but I'd never give poulty bones.

Totally agree about fads & fashions in feeding.

Hi,

I was concerned about giving Sunny his first chicken wing, knowing what a gannet he can be but as I watched him, he chewed it and made sure that all the bone was crunched up before he swallowed. He's never swallowed one whole,neither have any come out of the other end! His bowels are working fine so I can only presume that he's digesting them.
As I said, it's what works for your particular dog and it's easy to get so caught up and confused with diets. Sunny is our first dog and I was overwhelmed with the advice from other people and various sites. In the end, it was trial and error - bones and raw meat works for Sunny, for now. That may change. If Sunny had taken to commercially produced food, I'm sure we would have stayed with that but this is the only food that he eats, enjoys and does well on.

Ruth

Can see everyone's point of view, I know people who have fed raw for years with no problems and had heard good reports so decided to give it a try. I was wary about bones at first but mine crunch them really thoroughly before swallowing. On checking carefully I can find no sharp pieces of bone passed and believe me I check well.
My dogs eat very well on raw, much keener for meals than previously
Anne

I seem to be the opposite way around to the Wolfhound people. I now never give marrow bones since one of my bitches ate the bone and it blocked and excoriated much of her intestine and she nearly died. This caused problems for the rest of her life due to adhesions which were reoperated on about 5 years after the initial problem.

However I do give poultry bones - these are mostly either wings or bones from birds where the legs, breasts etc are removed for human consumption (so we also get any chemicals that are in them as they won't be removed by cooking) and the bones are very soft - most of them I can break with my fingers if so inclined as the birds are so young and the bones not yet fully calcified. I also give the occasional leg and if turkeys are as cheap as they appear to be then they may well get a large portion of turkey each shortly if I can fit them in the freezer :)

Since starting on a totally raw diet I have noticed, like Christine (Spain) that their teeth are white and sparking (even mybitch who even as a pup had revolting teeth) and that their excrement is very compact - leading me to beleive that they utilise most of what they eat.

I don't agree that a raw diet negates the need for wormers (had first sight of worms since my original worm laden bitch a few months ago) or for vaccinating - over the last few years I have increase this to include rabies rather than decrease.

I raised my recent litter on a totally raw diet and most of the new vets approve of the health and build of the pups (only one complained that the pup would not get enough calcium in its diet!!! and needed proper dog food)

I don't worry too much about balance in my diet and try to extend this to the dogs - they will survive more or less whatever you feed them and if you are sensible and balance it out then they will thrive and should remain healthy on it.

My aim for transferring completly to raw was to try to eridicate, or at least reduce, the cancers that my dogs seem to die from so if my youngster and any progeny she might have lives over 11 (which her great, and great,great grandmothers died of cancer at) then I will feel a raw diet is meeting my aim for it. The benefits, which should be a slow and steady growth, thus eliminating many of the growing problems such as pano, healthy mouths and digestive systems will be an added bonus.

Christine
Kerioak

Oh sorry to hear about your bitch Christine, I never knew that. As for the worms, have you tried garlic daily? I`m told as well as the diet, they do`nt like garlic :)
Christine, Spain.

Hi Christine, I haven't had a disaster with any sort of bone. The worst has been splinters caught in teeth and I don't let the dogs have bones unsupervised so that has been sorted quickly. I'm aware of the risks with large bones and - so far - have got away with it. I take the risk because the dogs enjoy their weekly bone so much, and they are good for teeth and jaw muscles. The only dog I've known that got into serious trouble was Gelert, one of our 'temporary residents'. After he went back to his owners he got an ulcer in his rectum that turned out to have been caused by a chunk of bone (unfortunately an inexperienced vet managed to perforate it and poor Gelert had a bad time).

I don't feed poultry for three reasons:

Infection. Frozen poultry is one of the best ways going to get nasty gut infections. I know that good handling minimises the risk but with the best will in the world carelessness happens if you are dealing with large quantities because you have a number of giant breed dogs.

Principle. Many think its odd to hunt and dislike intensive farming but I do. So I won't buy intensivly reared meat for us or the dogs and I can't get real free range poultry without paying a fortune.

Bones. The least of my worries, and I'd guess you're right about young birds. But my vets say that the majority of ingested bone problems come from poultry bones.

"I don't agree that a raw diet negates the need for wormers ... or for vaccinating"

Absolutely! Whatever anyone says, internal parasites are a valid concern about raw diets. If people don't have roundworm when feeding raw its because healthy, uncompromised adult dogs that were well wormed as pups tend to be resistant to them anyway. It doesn't bother me because my crew often catch their own dinners so they are on a regular and frequent worming regime anyway.

I don't see that vaccination and diet are connected, but I do get angry with those who don't vaccinate at all/use nododes. I think the rest of us are going to suffer for their pseudoscience, and sooner rather than later - but that's another subject.

"I don't worry too much about balance in my diet and try to extend this to the dogs - they will survive more or less whatever you feed them and if you are sensible and balance it out then they will thrive and should remain healthy on it."

This is where we begin to part company :). I don't worry about my own diet but unless they are on some 'fad' diet, these days people eat an enormous range of food. Our diet is probably far too high in fat but for most it will be varied enough to provide plenty of everything. Dogs don't have that choice because they don't browse the supermarket shelves and only get what we give them. Trying to vary a dog's diet is good, but the food will still rarely come within a beagle's gowl of the variety humans have. So I do think that some attention to balance and nutrition matters for adult dogs. I don't go overboard about it but I do think a little attention to canine digestion and the experince of previous generations of dog owners pays dividends in having a really fit dog.

I used to be downright obsessive about getting the balance right for pups/youngsters, and I still think it is vital. Some of that comes from having breeds where you can almost see the legs get longer as you watch but I suspect its important for all breeds possibly excepting the very small ones. Yes, most pups will get away an incorrect Calcium/Phosphorus balance etc, but have a look at pre-60's - 70's pics of winning deers/wolfies! Now I let let food companies do the worrying. They can do research that is completely beyond what any dog owner can aspire to and they don't sell any dog food if they get it wrong.

"My aim for transferring completly to raw was to try to eridicate, or at least reduce, the cancers that my dogs seem to die from ...

Puzzled by this - I don't know of any evidence connecting canine diet to cancer?

.... so if my youngster and any progeny she might have lives over 11 (which her great, and great,great grandmothers died of cancer at)

Not sure what cancers dobes get but as you know osteo is the big problem in deerhounds & IWs. I've been incredibly lucky in having long lived hounds and have only had one osteo in a pup I bred so far. There is pretty clear evidence of a familial link in osteo so I hope (but am not convinced) that I've given luck a helping hand by being pretty ruthless in selecting breeding stock for longevity of ancestors and as much freedom as is possible (or knowable :() from osteo, bloat and especially DCM in those ancestors.

"The benefits, which should be a slow and steady growth, thus eliminating many of the growing problems..."

Couldn't agree more :). I like a slow developer and think that 'forcing' pups is a potential problem in the making. I wince every time someone on Champs asks how to put weight on a youngster because I want to scream "Don't! Hide it from the ring for a while if you have to but leave the poor thing alone to devlop at it's own rate".

Sorry that this is so long, but I hope it covers some of the points others have made.