I wonder if anyone has any suggestions for a breed of dog for us, we have kind of set our hearts upon an Australian Cattle Dog, but are having second thoughts as to whether one would be suitable for us. To sum us up, we are a couple very used to dogs, with experience of training dogs (to date labradors, x staffie type crossbreed and x lab/gordon) I do obedience and also agility twice a week and would definitely carry this on with the next dog (must be suitable for this and not too heavy) We also have 2 small children who are used to dogs (obviously) aged 3.5 and nearly 2. We are planning to get the next dog summer 2003 approx (after the family holiday in May so we have a year before it has to go to our dog minder)
A very rough shortlist of dogs we would consider are Border Terriers, JRT's, Poodles, Tib Terrier(my choice, except for the grooming), preferably nothing too big as the other 2 are big enough.
Any suggestions considered along with any thoughts on the Cattle Dog, which is definitely a dog we will have, just maybe not this time aroundwhile the kids are small. I really want a dog suitable dog for Agility though. Thanks, Hayley

Hi Hayley,
If you are keen on agility and want a small dog I would think a poodle might fit the bill, they are really smart dogs and you can have them clipped so no worries about coat. As far as I know they are ok with kids too but no doubt someone else on here will be able to tell you more about that.
Anne

How about a spaniel? Cocker maybe? Or a springer? My clumber spaniel loves to do agility type stuff.

Gosh that is such a hard question to answer as everyone has a favourite breed. All I can say is that after months of thinking about it I finally got my little Border Terrier 3 months ago and she is wonderful! Funny, a right character and I hear that they can be good at agility, something I am looking forward to doing with her sometime in the furture.

Hi, Hayley here again, thanks for the replies so far, I know it is difficult as everyone has allegance to their fave breeds, I love labs but will not get another one as I love agility and my lab/gordon (36 kilos) was injured doing it. I must say I have always fancied a Border Terrier, but worry that they are a bit small to have with children (for the dogs sake). As for spaniels, aren't the ears a bit of a nuisance? Thanks again for any suggestions, it is great to have found a site with so many like minded people!

I have boston terriers and I have 1 in agility 2nd level and he loves it and my other one is starting. Any dog can pretty much do agility. One lady at my class has a weener dog (the name of the breed just isn't coming to mind) and the little guy loves it, she has two in it. Of course the dog doesn't really do jumps more walk over things because they are so short to the ground and longed back. Good luck in finding the breed u want. :) I have even seen alot of crosses/rescue dogs on t.v and my class in agility. There is a couple of Australian cattle dogs in the class, and they are fast. I even watched one demonstrating flyball with a couple of other dogs. Thats was neat. :)

I'd cross GSD's off as a possibilty then- they're probably too big and boisterous considering the ages of your children:) Mine find ours hard- she's big but still a puppy and my children are 5 and 7:) Only the other day she went crashing into Kane and sent him flying in the mud on the field:) I don't do agility but have heard that they can find the *wall* hard due to their weight- they don't really need grooming that much though (as much as they would outside with a proper coat) if they live in the house with central heating:)

Stacey x x x

Spaniel ears aren't a nuisance. TH did have ear problems, but I treat them once a week with Thornit and no more smelly squealchy ear. I have her clipped twice a year, to stop things getting stuck in the fur. But other than that she's a treat.

I've never had any ear problems with my spaniel and my parents three (all cockers) have been fine.

Please don't discount a spanile on the basis that they might have ear problems - they can make wonderful family pets and are full of life and character. I have three young children and my cocker is now completely devoted to them and there's nothing better than cuddling up with a hairy spaniel when it's cold and someone forgot to turn the electric blanket on :D

Fiona
x x x

My springer doesn't get many ear problems either. My gwp is far worse than Holly.

Helen

The only trouble I have with my Elkhounds ears is they are always pointing in the wrong direction. Ja:)kie

What about some of the setters? Don't know if they're "tough" enough for agility, I've never seen any doing it. Or an English Pointer - a friend has one and it's a lovely laid back thing, but once it's working in the field, it seems to switch on.

>Or an English Pointer - a friend has one and it's a lovely laid back thing,

Can you ask her if she will swop a mad 5 year old pointer bitch called Lucky. When is that dog going to calm down? She is a fantastic worker but she's hard work in between. Lovely though so I can forgive her.

Helen

Hi Hayley
I wonder if you have ever give a thought about an Afghan Hound. They have the agility to get the best place infront of the fire or the best seat.Also they are self trained at pinching any food left lying around(even out of hand if not careful). They are also very good at being able to not hear you when you call as they ALWAYS know that you mean you want them half hour later.
Come bath time they really know you want to spend absolutely ages with their coats and you enjoy getting soaked with the shaking.
So get an Afghan Hound who can train you to do what it want when it wants, so much more fun.
Bazza

Well, the best agility dog will always be the Border Collie, but these dogs aren't always the greatest with small kids. They're not too big though. JRTs/PJRTs are my fave (obviously) and are great at agility (that's what I plan on doing with mine!) and they can be great with kids so long as u choose an even tempered one, and train/socialize them from day one how to behave around kiddies (the nipping thing especially). Border Terriers r lovely as well- might be slightly more placid than a JRT.
A word about Australian cattle dogs- watch their tendancy to nip at the heels of animals & people. All the ones I've ever known have been pestulant in that way (otherwise very friendly dogs). Shelties are also good agility dogs and are generally good family dogs. I always see at least one sheltie at agility trials!

Emma =)

Hi, Hayley here again, thanks to everyone who replied to my post. I'm still in a bit of a muddle as to what to do but it is slowly becoming clearer (must be all the rain!!!) We are still giving serious consideration to the Cattle Dog, it would be great to hear from someone with an ACD who either has kids or who takes their Cattle Dog into public places where there are other dogs to see how well they socialise, most Cattle Dog breeders and owners we have spoken to exercise them away from other dogs.
We are also giving serious consideration to the Border Terriers, Jack Russells (what are the main diffs between JRT's and PJRT's?) and also to the Spaniels. Setters are definitely out, we have a few our agility club and they are certainly not the brightest animals there (though they are the sweetest and best behaved for sure) and as for Afghans Bazza, perhaps not quite what we are looking for!:)

Here I wad in? As you have thought about a spaniel and think Setters too thick, how about a Large Munsterlander?

They are not as fast as the BC's, WS's or GSD's at agility but can do it and are placed too. A bitch from my first litter competes in agility and has had placings likewise friends in New Zealand, infact one of their's is an Agility Champion.

The breed is friendly, great with kids, a natural watch dog, loves walking etc....

Munsterlanders are very tempting, I knew a groomer once (Gill?), a friend of a friend, who had a couple and they were lovely. Unfortunately my other (not better!) half is not so keen, says they are a bit big as we already have 2 Lab sized XB's. I will show him what you said though, and leave the breed book open at the appropriate page, who knows. We do have a lady who walks and jogs with her LM around our country park so I'll try and have a word (her dog is a bit nervous though so may be a bit difficult, is this normal for the breed?), Thanks again!!!:)

how about a wirehaired vizsla ? :) :)
i'm hoping to do agility with mine when she is older, she is sooooooo calm in the house & i have 2 small kids too she loves them to bits. I cant say how pleased i am with my w.Viz . Eager to please, polite, calm (in the house) loves people & dogs the list goes on & on oh did i say she is just so easy to have lol i'm not really smitten am i :)

Hi Hayley,

No the breed shouldn't be nervous in general but they do not respond to too harsh treatment or it could turn them that way, my voice is enough to let my dogs know I am displeased!

Depending on what bloodlines/breeder you go to, could make the difference in height. I feel the breed is struggling with several Munsters too big for the height standard, roughly bitches should measure 23-25", dogs 24-26", if you see a dog at 24" (Like my Curtis will be) it looks quite small because the dogs are getting a tad tall.

If you want to contact me via e-mail and tell me what area you are, I can let you know of someone who could be around you. Then you can go and meet the dogs etc. "Try before you buy" !!!!!!!! ;) I show 2 of my Munsters (I have 4 so you can say I am a bit hooked!!!) so I know an awful ot of people even though I'm situated in the outers reaches of Britain!

Christine

Hi Christine, thanks for all your info, will start working on the other half, it would be nice to see some correct specimens of the breed before they are discounted by him! The bitch we see when out walking does seem rather tall by your measurements, I may measure my lab/gordon and compare them next time we meet, if the dog comes close enough! If by any chance he agrees to go and see some LM I will contact you, out of interest we are in Lightwater, Surrey, J3 of the M3, only 10 mins from M25.
Many thanks again, hopefully we will have chosen a breed and found a suitable breeder by next summer, I don't find winter pups too much fun with doors open, small children running into the garden etc!

Lightwater, that's not far from my friend Caz in Farnborough, she has 2 boys, one is a good typical Munster size, the other? Well, he is quite big but both good tempered unlike their owner ;)

Hi again Christine, I will try as persuade Steve (other half) that we should pay a visit, not sure if I fancy my chances, is there a good website that has some good piccies. Strangely enough, I saw another LM on the walk this AM that I hadn't seen before, much more sociable, nicer colouring and certainly more compact, altogether a nicer composition, pity Steve wasn't there to see it, he had to look after the sproglets! :)

OOOH, I wonder if that might have been one of mine, I sold 2 pups from my last litter, one to Tatsfield in Kent, the other to Tadworth in Surrey, if you see her again, shout "Purdy" and you may come up trumps! She was the whitest one in my litter when she left here, solid black head but I suspect she'll have ticked ("spots")through over her legs and body.

I will forward some sites to your email address if you want and send on a few piccies too, don't want to presume anything before you say ok!

Bye

Christine

:) Hi again Christine, the dog I saw this morning was, I think, called Jessie, she was very dark, lots of black patches and black ticking(don't know if that is what the standard requires). Steve is still being rather negative, purely down to the size I think - he is currently voting for the Australian Cattle Dog (maybe out as is not always reliable socially, although would prob make a great agility dog) and the Border Terrier, which I have to admit we both do like and could be more practical. I, however, am very rarely practical, and I do love big dogs especially dogs that can put in a good days work.
I don't want to mess you about as we are still very much at the decision making stage, but it would be great to see some more pics and get more info, even if just to get Steve to make a yay or nay!!! Feel free to use the email.
Great to hear from you again, I can't believe what a great site this is
Hayley :)

Hi Hayley,

The one that went to Tatsfield was called Jess!!!!!! Emailing starting up now!

PS) I'm not wanting to pressurise anyone into a Munster, I hope no-one reads anything into this. I have no pups of my own to plug, but I'm not that sort of person anyway. I just want people to make sure that if they want a Munster, they are fully aware of the breed's little traits!!!!!

How about an Aussie shepherd. Great at agility, obedience, bigger than a ACD but not to big?

Hi Hayley, jumping in late but at the small end of the scale have you thought about a sheltie? There doesn't seem to be as many of them in agility as there used to be, maybe because the show ones have become so delicate. (A sheltie person will probably come along and jump on me for saying 'delicate' but imo a lot of them look like poms!). But you can still get sturdier models that can put in a days work. Just a suggestion as it sounds as if you've set your heart on a Munster :).

It's never too late Sharon and Philippa, you never know, there may actually be a breed out there that Steve and I can agree on. I think Shelties are out simply because I hate grooming, but you're right there should be more of them in agility, they really are rather nippy! As for Aussie Shepherds, they are beautiful dogs, a really nice size for me, but I do like a dog with a tail (another debate), although aren't they naturally bobtailed?
Oh, and Christine, thanks for all the Munster info, am about to go through it now, kids are in bed, ironing done (how exciting is that for a Saturday night),and the wine is poured, I am now officially cleared to chill.
Thanks for everybodys input, I'm sure we will eventually agree on a breed, Hayley :D

Hi again, some Aussies are born naturally docked, others are born with tails, and Im sure if you asked , a decent helpful breeder would leave a tail on your pup. If you think you would like an Aussie, please let me know.

Hi Hayley,

It's no bother at all......I just want people to be sure they want a Munster and not buy on half whims, we don't have a big Rescue problem BUT.........

I can only hope, if I wanted another breed someone would hepl me out before I commited myself too.

Christine

Hi Haley

Just to clarify, the difference between a JRT & a PJRT (or PRT) [Jack Russell Terrier & Parson Jack Russell Terrier or Parson Russell Terrier] is only in the length of it's legs. The JRT here in the UK generally refers to the more common but less correct version which has short legs. The PJRT/PRT refers to the original type bred by Reverand John(Jack) Russell in Devon, which had the long legs (like the Fox Terrier, as both Fox's & PJRT's came from the same dogs-omnly the fox terrier was developed more into a show dog, while the JRT was kept as a working dog) and is generally held as the correct type. In America ( I'm from Canada originally) we simply call them all JRT's, but you can take for granted that we generally mean the long-legged variety when saying 'JRT' as we don't have too many of the short legged kind. Both short & long legged dogs are the same in personality, tenacity, energy level, intelligence, etc, etc! They're a handful 4 sure, but so much fun! Especially if you consider yourself to be an energetic, outdoorsy person!

Good luck with your choices! And remember- if you go with your heart in the end, you'll always be happy. You'll be able to work out the problems on the way, because you'll have the desire & willpower to do so! ACD's are smart dogs (sheepdogs always are) and so long as you keep on top of the training, and help it to use up it's energy in an acceptable way, I'm sure you'll end up with a lovely dog who would definaetly be good at agility (and who would be good with kids, so long as you bring him up to respect them). In my experience they are kind dogs, who occasionally let the sheepdog in them become a nuisance to us (ie: chasing animals & people on bikes)- but this can always be avoided or fixed with training. I knew an old lady who had an adult ACD who was lovely- very kind dog, but then he was also trained properly. I think what I'm trying to say here is: ACD's have are kind dogs (assuming that their breeding is good) but need guidance to become respectful ones. Remember: It's not the breed, it's the breedING. A pit bull (4 example) isn't neccessarily going to be more agressive than a GSD- unless it's breeding, personality, and inconsistent training make that true.

Emma =)

Thanks Emma,

Have you known many Cattle Dogs, particularly in this country, if so have you seen them running free with dogs not from their own family, and if so, do they behave, we have heard so many stories from people saying they will start on other dogs, are feisty etc. We have chosen a breeder and a bitch who has a very nice temperament, but were told we couldn't get our dogs out of the car to meet her, she also had 3 others who were perhaps not quite as sound, not related to the bitch. She seems to only exercise them near her home which is in the middle of nowhere, maybe they are just terratorial (not sure about that spelling!) but could they be like that if they walked in the same place every day? What to do, we do not know???!!!

Hi Hayley

Well, unfortunately I've only known ACD's that were on their own. But I imagine they'd be fine so long as they were socialized properly when puppies. Actually, since you have other dogs it would probably be quite beneficial for the ACD pup to be 'shown the ropes' & be put in it's place gently by a kind older dog. You'd just have to supervise them and make sure you seperate them when the older dog shows signs of being tired by the pup (older dogs usually do this on their own by growling at the playful pup to say when it's finished playing games).
The fact that the breeder wouldn't let you bring your other dogs out to meet the pups is probably for 2 main reasons:
1) the pups aren't protected from any diseases your dogs could possibly have been in contact with-just a safety precaution
2) if the bitch is still with her pups, she may try to protect them from other dogs (but if she tries to protect them from you- go find another breeder!!!!)

The thing that I find a little worrying about this breeder is that she doesn't seem to have socialized her dogs with other dogs/people much (ie: only walks them around her nowhereland property). On the other hand, that is something that you can change about your own puppy- it's in learning more than breeding. Just make sure that you go for a middle of the road pup- not the first one who jumps up at you (usually dominant & harder to train as it will question you) and most of all, not the shyest one (can turn fear aggressive which is particularily bad in sheepdog breeds I find-what with their brains & all!).
I think that as long as you choose a healthy pup from a healthy bitch & dog who have kind temperaments, and socialize it as much as possible & train it all the way- you won't be dissapointed.

Emma =)

Thanks again Emma,

I have just emailed the breeder and had a very speedy reply back. I think I was perhaps a liitle negative about her dogs, she has said that she is able to take her bitch most places without worry as well as 2 of the others, I think the oldest male is of the old Cattle Dog school and very dominant so is best kept away from others, she doesn't however let them all off together in case of trouble as she feels there may be too much of a pack mentality. Personality wise she feels the average Cattle Dog is no different to the average Border Collie, just not as neurotic as some of them. The puppies will not be available till at least next June so we have plenty of time to make up our minds.
The breeder said the same as you, that our older dogs, who will be 5 and 4&1/2 when the pup is due, will also help out as teachers, and that socialisation is the key, so I will be on the look out for puppy parties and obedience classes in my area (apparently the bitch we hope to have a pup from went 3 times a week when a pup herself). If we do go for it we will definitely take the advice everyone has so kindly given.

Thanks again, Hayley

I have met a few, and an adult male, and a pup came to my ringcraft. The puppy bitch was very sociable, and the male wasn't too bad with bitches, but the owner was more careful about males.

At Discover dogs when I came past with my 3 Elkhounds, I got a few piss off Grunts from the ACDs with the lady I chatted too, and was told they didn't particularly like other dogs.

Training and socialisation really are the key. If you know they tend to be not very sociable, then this needs work.

they certainly are excellent Agility dogs, as one poster one of the Elkhound email lists has both breeds doing Agility. She started with an Elkie ACD cross, which led her top get a pure Elkhound, and then a pure ACD, and all three are fine together.

Allong with being a puppy raiser I am also a foster home for a local animal rescue group. It's not about breeds! There are plenty of perfectly good animals out there whether or not your in USA or UK. Go to a rescue group and find an animal that fits what you need/want.

Hi Puppy Raiser

Thanks for your input, I am well aware it is not ALL about breeds, as you can see from my previous posts I have 2 crossbreeds, both of whom have been wonderfully good pets and working dogs. However we now have 2 small children and are (we feel) being sensibly cautious. A rescue dog often brings along a a certain degree of 'baggage' and deserves better conditions than we could offer and there is also a risk (however minimal) of the dog not coping with a busy household and not being as good with the children. We feel with a puppy it will be used to the household from an early age when its behaviour will be much more easily shaped, hopefully we will also be able to buy from a breeder who's pups have been exposed to children.
Do not worry, I am sure that there will be more rescues in our family in years to come, whether they be of the pedigree or crossbreed variety!

ok, as long as you already have some rescue dogs.
It's not my descision of course to by from a breeder. But my dad bought a $1500 norwhich terrier! Just cause the breed is sappose to be the right kind, that haven't seen the dog or had a pic before they put money down. That sickens me!

Puppyraiser,

what is important for all dogs is that they find a good, loving, permanent home where all of their needs will be met.

Anyone who is willing to provide a home such a this regardless of whether or not they have rescue dogs already are people I admire greatly.

I do rescue and have no problem with people purchasing puppies of their choice from reputable breeders. There are several threads on the board which take about this, if you type in rescue dog in the search facility you will see there has been previous discussion around this topic.

I think it is important to be able to see both sides of the coin, too many times in rescue I have encountered snobbery from rescues towards breeders which has ultimately resulted in the dogs needing rescuing being denied an opportunity for a home. On the other hand I have found many breeders to be very helpful in assisting me when they could

Theresa :)

Puppy raiser - in another thread you say you are a first-time breeder of service dogs - can you define that for us, please?

Why do you say "it is ok as long as I already have rescue dogs". Having rescues for me has been great but everybody is entitled to do as they choose. An individual may enjoy the personality of a particular breed, or use that breed for a purpose (eg malamutes for sledding) or they breed (the dogs!) and show (for pleasure and socialisation). Good breeders are vital for the healthy continuation of a breed. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but it must be constructive.
Hayley