Right, I'll start at the beginning!  We're having problems and I just can't see the wood for the trees.

We have 3 dogs now - 2 GSDs: Sasha 6, very overprotective & overattached to me, Warro 3 & 1/2, sweetie with people, bossy with other male dogs; and DHs dog, Jack 6 year old crossbreed, absolute sweetheart but has fairly severe epilepsy, meds have it fairly well under control but still has occasional seizures and is a bit glassy eyed and I don't think he sees to well since he went into a status epilepticus a couple of years ago.

Warro & Sash get on brilliantly.  However, neither of them particularly like Jack.  Sash was brought up with him ,even before we lived together we went for walks together and stayed over at each others houses, same with Warro when he joined my household. Sash will try to boss Jack about but he usually just makes a few growly noises to put her off and trots off.

A few weeks ago Warro laid into Jack badly, Warro would not let go at all, I was trying everything to get him off, but eventually managed to pull him off while he moved his bite.  Poor Jack was very battered and bruised.  No stitches but several puncture wounds on his head and we thought he'd broken his leg.  I was in absolute bits, could hardly bear to look at Warro. 

Anyway, I decided to keep them apart for Jacks safety, which has been ok.  Sash has still been ok with Jack, going out for a week at the same time with him, etc, etc.  We have gates in the house to keep them separated and Jack sleeps in a crate (always has). Last night while we were watching tv, Jack was in with us with the gate shutting the others out, but he was a bit twitchy, not having a seizure as he was aware of us, so I was massaging him and talking to him.

Well this morning, I sent my son down to let Sasha and Jack in as Warro was with me when all hell broke loose!  When I got downstairs, after stopping Warro from trying to come down to join in, I found Sasha had pinned Jack to the floor and he was screaming!  She really didn't want to let go, so I ended up punching her to let him go (have never hit the dogs ever!).  Fortunately Jack wasn't hurt, she had him by the ruff, which is quite thick.  While all this was happening, my 15 year old son got bitten on the hand, though it's only one mark it's quite deep - he said Sash had turned and bitten him while he was trying to get her off by the collar.

I just don't know what to make of it all.  I couldn't bear to lose any of them. Jack will be going to the vets for a check up as soon as I can get an appointment, re the twitches and just to make sure I've not missed anything.

Does anyone have any comments?  Any advice would be gratefully received.

Thanks

I don't know really how to advise you other than what you probably realise, this is quite a dangerous situation to be in, dogs that don't get along with each other is a hard one I don't think that you could ever leave them together again (I know this was an accident). I think that the situation has become very complicated, you may find that you will have to make some difficult decisions, as its unfair and mentally upsetting for your older dog. Sorry.

There is also the likelihood that the Epilepsy is bringing out the predatory nature in the others as he is acting to them abnormally and I assume in the wild would be a liability to the pack.

Hi Paula,

I would be inclined to agree with Barbara. I saw this first hand myself when working out in North America some years ago (Sled dogs) We had a youngster that kept being attacked it wasn't until some weeks later when he had a seizure with convulsions on the trail that we realised what the 'pack' knew way before us.
    Like Humans have an 'aura' before an attack (a taste or visual disturbance) He would whine (In my inexperience at the time I had just put this down to usual Husky impatience to get going!) But once diagnosed we could see the subtle things we'd missed. He was never accepted or tolerated by the pack and left the kennel. :-(

I would seek advice from those that have experience in this field. But I would also ensure that he is kept separate from the other dogs from now on must be extremely stressful for him and them and of course Im sure for you and your family.

I wish you the best of luck and hopefully someone with experience also of epileptic dogs may have knowledge of good forums for canine epilepsy and point you in the direction of someone who can speak with authority on this.

Best wishes x

Paula,

I agree with what others have said here about the pack instinct. They probably find Jack to be a canine weirdo who does odd things and is unpredictable in terms of his body language etc.. and that spooks them, as you say they have never liked him and attack is the best form of defence, and so on.

I'd be a bit concerned about Sash. Okay, she bit your son under unusual circumstances, but he is a part of your household and could not control her. You say she is overprotective and overattached to you. I'd keep Jack separate from them for now and get someone in to assess the dogs and help you. It won't necessarily cure the problem but it sounds as though the dogs, and Sash in particular, need to trust that you are in control of things and that it is not up to them to rush in and protect and sort things out for you, and that other members of the family also have decision making abilities that they can trust.

Cold the epilepsy medication be adjusted in any way, has everything been tried? I have a Golden with epilepsy and for the first year or so on medication we had a lot of problem with fights. Eventually the medication started to work properly, so that there weren't even any minor episodes  (like staring into walls and similar), and when that happened, all the fighting stopped as well.

I'd be a bit concerned about Sash. Okay, she bit your son under unusual circumstances, but he is a part of your household and could not control her. You say she is overprotective and overattached to you.

If Sash has been a sound dog previously I wouldn't actually be concerned that she is likely to bite a human again. GSD's in particular are generally most loyal and attached to one person in the household, many breeds are the same, most of us have complete control of all our dogs but during a fight or a canine altercation anything can happen, it does not necessarily mean the dogs character is not good, they are at the time focussed on one thing only getting their message across to the dog in question and nips can often happen if a human gets in the way, which is why we have so many threads on how to seperate fighting dogs seperately. I would just make sure that your son does not seperate them if they ever get together again. GSD's are big powerful dogs it is likely that someone can get hurt. Calling off may well not work if the dog is worked up, maybe throwing something blanket/towel over the eyes may give a chance to seperate.

I'm in total agreement with everyone else that the dogs illness may well be the problem here, it is as already said instinctive to erradicate a dog showing irregularities (and we think the world of business is cut throat) some breeds/characters and packs don't fluff around, which seems to be the case here. I hope that MarrianneB gives hope that maybe the medication can be adjusted, fingers crossed, but otherwise.................

What you do know is that Jack may possibly always be in danger from both dogs, at only 6 years of age it will be a good few years of living like this, it's possible to do it, otherwise maybe Jack could go to a family member perhaps........

Carrington,

I take your point. I had picked up on the comment Paula had made about her bitch being overprotective and overattached to her, taking this to mean even for a GSD. Obviously she knows her dog and will, I'm sure, be able to make a judgement as to whether her dog being overprotective and overattached is a potential problem. She did say the bite was more than a nip but we all know there is a risk to getting mixed up in any dog fight.

I also agree that Marianne B's point about adjusting/evaluating the medication may prove the most valuable intervention.

What you're all saying pretty much agrees with what I've been thinking myself.  Sasha is more overprotective and overattached than is normal, even for a GSD - she tried to 'round up' the kids friends if they try to go upstairs straight from the front door.

I think Jack's stary-ness is down to the fact he can't see too well - he went into a terrible status epilepticus (where one fit just goes straight into another & can last for days) and I really didn't think he'd come out of it alive, I never want to see a dog in that state ever again, it was horrible.  There's nothing wrong with his eyes as such, but the optic nerve may be damaged.

There's no chance of Jacks meds being reduced, these are as low as we can get it without meaning a lot more seizures.  He's due more bloods to be taken soon so we'll see how that goes.  The time before last they showed a problem with his liver enzymes so they put him on hills l/d but it was hugely expensive so we decided to put him on a raw diet and at least if his liver deteriorated then at least he would have been happy - Jack lives for food and cuddles, bless him.  But the next blood test showed that his liver was back to normal!  Anyway, I degress,  I think the upshot is that we're just going to have to be very careful and keep Jack away from the others. Shouldn't be too difficult, with the gates etc. 

We couldn't rehome him, family aren't too keen on dogs but he is pretty high maintenance with the meds and their timing, especially when he does have seizures he needs rectal diazepam.

With Sasha, I think I may have to withdraw from her a bit and see if she becomes less attached to me.  It was my own fault, I guess - I'd wanted a gsd for my whole life, had to get rid of the now ex- husband to get her (he thought all shepherds were vicious and ate children!), so I've probably accepted a lot of behaviour from her that I didn't with the dogs I had prior to getting her.

Thanks for all your comments, I really appreciate it.

> There's no chance of Jacks meds being reduced

I think we more meant them being adjusted/upped to take him out of the epileptic signs triggering the attacks.

Oh sorry Barbara, hadn't realised!  When I take him for his bloods and check up, I'll discuss it with the vet.  He's on a pretty high dose of phenobarbitone and potassium bromide already, which is why they like to keep checking his liver enzymes.