I have a rescue dog that I have had for a couple of years now, who came with behaviour problems and who will be difficult if not impossible to find a new home for. Whilst I have resolved some of the problems, she has recently started to be  aggressive to some of my other dogs, inparticularly a small one and I am concerned that she might kill him. I am obviously very upset to be considering this but would she be better  off being put  to sleep or returned to the rescue where she will be kept in a kennel for the  rest of her life, without the  attention, training, daily walks etc that she has enjoyed for the last couple of years? The rescue contract says she must be returned  to them, but I am not sure this is how I want her to spend the rest of her life. My heart is breaking to have to make  this decision. she is only 4 now so could have 10+ years living in a kennel.

Very difficult decision, and I'm sorry to hear that you've got to make such a choice.
Perhaps the rescue might reassess her and possibly rehome her where she is an only dog?

Why not give them a call to discuss it with them too?

Have you consulted a qualified (with a good reputation) behaviourist? If you have then I would ask another for a second opinion - if you are considering PTS then all avenues should be investigated.  It must be heart breaking for you - good luck.

the problem with rehoming her to someone  else is she is also not trustworthy with other small dogs, cats, small children  etc and  sees them as prey, so she will be very hard to rehome safely.
I have not spoken to the rescue yet as  I am sure they  will demand I return her and I feel that if I decide that it is better  to put her to sleep I want to do it from here so I can take her  so she is not  confused and frightened.

I am waiting to see if her insurance covers a behaviourist  as it is nearly £400 if  it does then of course i will  try  that

I take it that she is not a lab, (re: your user name) not characteristics of any lab I've ever met.

The high prey drive is not necessarily a worry quite a few breeds with behaviour problems have to be watched when untrained around smaller dogs, cats etc, my main worry here is this statement from you. is also not trustworthy with other small dogs, cats, small children  etc and  sees them as prey, so she will be very hard to rehome safely.
  small children being my main concern.

Any dog that was a danger to small children would be pts immediately as far as I am concerned sorry but it would, I would be tolerant of any other behaviour issues and work around them with segregation etc, but small children no way.

You sound as though you have done a lot of work with this dog 2 years worth is a lot of work, IMO you know this dog very well, I would trust your judgement more so than a rescue, who have not had 2 years with the dog.

If it went to an owner as a lone dog and was muzzled and on lead for the remainder of it's life and living in a place where it was unlikely to come into contact with children or if escaped or re: human error was off lead but still unable to hurt anyone then re-homing is a possibility, but your right the likelyhood of this is minor.

Just my own opinion, but a dog this untrustworth I would PTS without a second thought.

I had to pts a young bitch I'd bred only this year as she too suddenly started to attack her family members it was like throwing a switch, the decision was made after she attacked her father, had him by the throat on his back with him losing conciousness!

She was pm'd afterwards as I wanted to be sure I'd done the right thing and of course check for any new genetic issues that may have resulted in this behaviour. Thankfully or not depending on your view point she had been born with an AVM which normaly kills when it ruptures due to massive brain bleeding, but her's had just 'leaked' causing damage to her brain and each attack was suspected to be due to another bleed. 

I was relieved as it was a spontaneous malformation of the vessels of her brain which could have bled at any time during her life without warning not an inherited problem knowing helped me grieve.  You need to get a through vet check to see if there is any reason for this behaviour, then try a behaviourist if there is no apparent medical reason.

She is a cross breed, not really sure what she is crossed with, large and black, I was told she was a lab cross but she doesn't behave like my other labs.
It is the children that worry me most as I now have 3 grandchildren,  although the oldest one is now nearly 18 months I still have to  keep her carefully shut away when they visit  as even the sound of him playing in another room sends her over threshold.

I have really decided I cannot  live with the worry of having a dog that has  to be so carefully controlled and watched all the time. I have had to stop taking her to agility as the other dogs runnning wind her  up too much and I worry too much about letting her off the lead there in case she chases another dog.
But she  is lovely when at home with just us and  so nice to train and I really thought  I was getting somewhere  when  she pulled the lead out of my hand and chased a smal dog, and picked him up and shook him. He was unhurt thanksfully  but it really woke me up to the damage  she could do when she gets into this prey chase mode.

She has been seen by my vet and is very healthy. I have  been working with a trainer  to get the  chasing under control and though we were making progress. I am waiting to hear about a veterinary behaviourist but money  is tight since I retired and I am reluctant to spend another £400+just  to be  told that there is nothing to be done and I am just not confident that i will be able to change her as in 2 years she still has the problems.

She has been seen by my vet and is very healthy.

Has she had any blood tests? In particular I am thinking about a comprehensive thyroid test? (Thyroid problems can cause serious aggression issues). Has she had any x-rays? If she has not had a full set of tests, then how could the vet say she is healthy?

I am surprised that you were quoted over £400 for a behaviourist... That is a lot of money and I am sure you can find others just as qualified but quite a bit cheaper.

Vera

I appreciate everyone taking the time to reply to my  post but I feel that we are getting side tracked with Hollys history/ training   etc.

What I really wanted to know when I put the  question on the board is if I get to the point where I decide  I can't cope any more is can a  dog that has been used to living in a home with individual attention be happy living in a kennel situation for years? Is it better to be alive in a kennel or dead?

>Is it better to be alive in a kennel or dead?

That's something only you can decide. I'm currently having to decide whether it's better for a dog to be crippled and alive (and frustrated, depressed and in discomfort) or whether death would be the kinder option.

A dog with serious problems (and unsafe with children IS a serious problem) will be difficult to rehome and so I have no doubt that being pts is a better option that languishing in a kennel until the 'right' person with knowledge and experience comes along and says "I'm looking for a dog that is unsafe with children".
I think that you have a very sensible and responsible attitude but don't envy you.  I have done it once myself and it's not easy but then the right thing often isn't.  Good luck. :)

Hi

Can I ask which rescue you got her from and what support have they given you ? I would also be careful as if it is from a reputable rescue then you will have signed a contract which it may state that you have to hand her back or get permission to have her PTS.

Can you also describe or think back what triggered her recent aggression to other dogs and if she was on or off a lead. Has she actually got into a fight and caused injury or it it more of a warning to stay away ? Has she also gone for a child and can you again give us examples of when this started to happen and the situation it occurred ?

In the interim until you decide what to do I suggest if you feel she is that dangerous that youi get her muzzled in any situations you feel another animal of human is in danger of attack.

Also did the vet check her hips as if an animal is in pain which with HD this can ofetn be the case she may well be very defensive of other dogs incase the jump on her in play.

I've always been a believer that dogs are far better off than people in that we can make to decision to let them go, peacefully and painlessly should their outlook be anything less than a happy one.

In your situation I would explore every avenue first, including comprehensive health/blood tests and enlisting the help of a recommended behaviourist. If all that failed and I was unable to keep the dog myself then I would have her put to sleep. In fact in my own will one of my dogs is to be pts if anything happens to me. The rest could fairly easily be rehomed, and I have people lined up for them, but 'Mr beastly' would be incredibly difficult for anyone else to manage - far better he knows no upset and simply has a visit form the vets.

If it was my choice, i would pts, rather than risk her going back into kennels and out and back to kennels and out, always with the risk she could harm a child.  I wouldn't be able to pass the problem onto someone else. 

I agree though with exploring every avenue re health, but you have had her now for two tears, you know her better than anyone else and i think you know the answer deep down inside and you must not feel guilty about it.  How would you feel if she hurt a child?

Its a tough decision only you can make.... I wish you all the luck and love x

I really feel for you in this situation I really do. A family member had a similar situation with a rehomed dog they took on , unfortunately the  descion to pts came after the dog who had appeared  stable despite lack of training and social skills but apparently non aggressive narrowly missed biting one person  apparently with no warning or reason (human view)then nearly bit my niece age 2 then  she finally bit a neighbour as they entered the house by invitation. After consultation with the vet and a reputable behaviourist the sad descion was made to pts it was felt that a life in kennels would be wrong and the risks with young children in particular would make yet another rehome 4th difficult.
Such a hard one.

there are many many good tempered dogs pts in the UK every year because of lack of homes.
Only the poster can make the decision but I'm afraid if it were my dog and I had spent 2 years trying to put right the damage its early life had caused and still feared for other animals/childrens safety I would be haveing the dog pts.   its very sad but with an animal that would be so very hard to rehome to a suitable home I would prefer pts.

What happens if she goes back to kennels and gets the right home in the right circumstances/environment asap?
I would never condemn to pts unless theres no alternative and the dog has serious issues?

Weimed, completely agree.  At least the OP will know she did the best for the dog and gave it as good a life as she could - to put the dog into kennels, to pass it on to someone else, your mind would never be at rest, I would constantly worry.

I think that you answered the question for me when you said that you can't trust her with children and that you have grandchildren . IMO you have to put the children first and however carefully you put the dog away when they are visiting , accidents happen .
Is it better to live in a kennel or be PTS in the arms of a caring owner ? Only you can decide .

What happens if she goes back to kennels and gets the right home in the right circumstances/environment asap?
I would never condemn to pts unless theres no alternative and the dog has serious issues?

What is a key to this is that the OP has had the girl for two years and came with problems. Those problems have not been described but only recent problems.

We need to understand both periods and the increase and reason why the problems have escalated.

I would also say the the OP perhaps has taken on a problem that is more than most people can cope with but in the right hands she maybe able to live in a new home. Until the OP gives us specific examples I think it is relying on somebody who is out of their depth to be honest. (sorry if I am wrong in saying this but with the info I have seen that is what I have come to the conclusion about and also being retired you want to have a stress free life)  It is not a fault of the OP but a problem dog that could re homed in a experienced home.

I appreciate everyone taking the time to reply to my  post but I feel that we are getting side tracked with Hollys history/ training   etc.

Hi,

When you are asking peoples opiniom on whether a dog would be better off being PTS or having the chance of a life, her history/training etc is very relavant.  I don't think anyone on here should be suggesting either one option, as we could be condemning a dog to be PTS when actually in the right environment could do fine.  When you say she's not safe aound children what do you mean, does she growl/snap has she bitten.

With regards to other dogs, really she should be wearing a muzzle when out on walks which would prevent incidents like the one you experienced recently.  I really feel that given that you signed a contract and that you are talking about having an animal PTS possibly without seeing a behaviourist then you should at least be speaking to the rescue to see what they say or suggest, they may have a behaviourist that will work with you or they may take her back and work on her behaviour. 

Two of my dogs are not safe around children and have a very strong prey drive not only that but they both have or have had aggression issues with people due to poor treatment in the past.  My point being that these dogs live very happy lives through management and training and it may be perfectly posssible for yours to do the same, just because your home isn't right for her doesn't mean that there isn't a right home for her or that her problems can't be resolved.  There are lots of triggers for predatory behaviour including stress and lacking of using their natural instincts.

I think you really need a proper assessment as what one person considers a serious problem another will not.  Also you can get an experienced and qualified behaviourist far far cheaper than £400.  If you go down that route than I would make sure they are experienced and use positive methods, it may be worth looking on the APBC website or the APDT website for someone in your area.

It really would also be a good idea to have bloods done as sometimes physical problems that are missed at the yearly booster check over/general appointment, can be a cause of behavioural problems/changes.

I think with regards to the kennel option that depends very much on what they get at the kennels but like I say it may never come to that because they may be able to help with the problems or may be able to find her a more appropriate home.

Good post Karen; we rescued a 13 month old years ago with behavioural issues, wasn't good with children, other dogs or her own shadow for that matter.  She had aggression issues, and the underlying motivator was fear due to poor treatment in the past. We muzzled her in public for a few years and through training, socialising and rehab, she became a different dog.  Children can come up and pet her with ease and she doesn't blink an eyelid and they've been able to do so for a number of years; she's nearly 13 now.  She will still bark at a stranger coming to the door but after we accept them in, she is fine.  Many things need to be considered, severity of bite, trigger, intent, management, training, etc, etc.  I dread to think what could have happened to her had she ended up in the wrong home. 

However, I do accept that this may not be for everyone, but that is not to say there are not people out there like us; we have no kids and could dedicate our all.

This is a very difficult question to answer as I can see it from both points of view. I work in a 'rescue' place and one of the hardest things for me to get my head round is the destruction of perfectly nice dogs with nice temperaments because we have no room left in the kennels and more and more dogs just keep coming in. I help in dealing with all different breeds of dogs and it never gets any easier.

On the other hand nearly 10 years ago my family and i purchased a dog. This dog has bought nothing but heartache and if I could have my time over again I would have returned him after the 1st week but I thought that I could change him!!! People laugh when I say that this dog is mental but he really is. Thankfully he has never bitten anyone and he is not out and out aggressive but I can see him biting someone. He does not like to be touched or interacted by with anyone. He lives to eat and thats it. After 10 yrs he is still destructive and will still mess in the house and will go to great lengths to steal things, he drives me mad! However I decided many years ago that should my circumstances ever change that I would never send this dog to kennels and would never even contemplate rehoming him. He would not react well to kennels and he would be one of those dogs that is passed from pillar to post and end up being constantly rehomed & not even I could do that to him.

Gonna stick my neck out here and say that if I was in your postition then I would seriously be considering destruction. If you can not trust the dog round your grandchildren and is aggressive to other dogs is the rehoming centre you purchased her from really going to be able to find her a suitable home where she will never come into contact with children or small furry things - very unlikely.

I do appreciate the horrible situtaion you are in and its very easy for me to sit here and rant but its not that easy to go through with either decision!

What I really wanted to know when I put the  question on the board is if I get to the point where I decide  I can't cope any more is can a  dog that has been used to living in a home with individual attention be happy living in a kennel situation for years? Is it better to be alive in a kennel or dead?

Personally if I was in your position and having to decide whether a dog was PTS or living the rest of her live in rescue kennels, then my  option would be to have the dog Euthanized.

In a way I live with the same scenario, I have a dog aggressive dog, she is OK with her own family doggies, and is ok, with people, but ever the situation arises where she would be in need of a new home,  ...me and hubby dying.. then I have made provisions in my will that if my children can not look after her, she must be PTS, in no circumstances will she ever go to rescue or re-homed, as she is my dog, my responsibility , and I woudl turn in my grave if she was passed from  home to home.

So to answer your question, she is  your dog, you are the one who (by all accounts) feels responsible for her, so the decision is yours......sadly.

Not an easy one I  know, I am a firm believe in  there are worse things for dogs than death!!!  sometimes...!!!!!!!!!!!!

What a very honest post Kmaylor, from someone who works with rescue dogs and realises that sometimes a dog just can't be 'fixed' just like people there are loopy dogs and ones with bad attitudes and some who are just out right dangerous, all dogs have different personalities even though they share breed traits, no matter how good the trainer or owner sometimes a dogs character is just that and fixed for whatever reason.

Puppies and adolescents can be forgiven almost anything they are still in the learning process and can usually be turned around just as many dogs who have just been brought up incorrectly or had a bad start, but you can usually tell the difference between a dog that is willing to learn and one who won't or can't, and yes even a complete novice just teaching the basics can see if a dog is receptive. Often a dogs character just is and it is as simple as that. :-)

It is such a difficult topic to discuss and I know that a lot of people would hand the dog back into the rescue then they dont feel as guilty but they forget to consider the quality of life that the dog will then have. Would I ever want any of my dogs in kennels - hell no! I am that sad that I don't even go on holiday anymore unless they come with me. I know my dogs inside out and although I would never trust them 100% I know which circumstances they would be comfortable in and which ones would totally freak them out.

The problem with rescue centres now is that it is all about figures and gettin the dogs in and out as quick as poss and sometimes the dogs needs are overlooked, or they may not be apparant whilst being assessed in the kennels. So when someone offers a dog a home the centres are so eager to get the dog out that it does not always end up in the most suitable of homes or with someone who has enough experience to cope with that particular dog. I do know that is not the case in all rescue centres.

Locally we have a lot of mini-rescues that people run from their homes and I admire all of them for their dedication but they are not regulated. For instance they rehomed a very lively X SBT who is a regular escape artist to a man who is wheelchair bound and openly admitted that he had no intention of ever walking the dog he just wanted a friend.........you've got me going now so I better stop! Sorry!

The problem with rescue centres now is that it is all about figures and gettin the dogs in and out as quick as poss and sometimes the dogs needs are overlooked, or they may not be apparant whilst being assessed in the kennels.

Yes, I have to agree with this, I think most of us have seen posts from people just on this board who have or know of someone who has/had a rescue dog just absolutely not suited to their needs, I can understand why rescues do this, after all most we know are fit to burst with unwanted dogs, but in the long run it does rarely benefit the dog. :-(

And I think if we are honest 99% of us would not wish to send any of our dogs off to a rescue and have the uncertainty of it's future, we would find suitable homes ourselves, in this case it is impossible for our OP to find that suitable home herself and the long road ahead of training required if anyone did take the dog on, which may be to no avail anyhow.

It is a hard decision I agree but I feel the dogs interests need to come before our own emotional ones.

It would be nice if all dogs could just live their lives as who and what they are, but unfortunately they live with us in a human world and due to this they have to be safe and manageable and domesticated, if they can not be these things it is kinder for them to be let go.

thanks to everyone for their input. Although it is not possible to give people the full picture on a forum like this you can be sure I have done, and will do everything possible to resolve the problems. I was coping with the problems outside the house but now she has turned  against a housemate and I think she wants to kill him, it means there is no escape from the problems even at home. She had a muzzle on last night  and I was supervising but just a split second and she went for him again so they  are now separated permanently. I worry that a door left open might result in serious injury or death to him.
Giving her back to the rescue would be the  easy way out for me  and I could do that, but only if i was convinced she could be happy. I don't want to sentence her to a lifetime in a kennel without the love and care she has here, or to go back and forth from one home to the next until she really does damamge to a child or dog.
in spite of the problems I do love her very much and am not looking to pass the buck.
If she has to take that last trip to the vets I would rather she did it with me who  she trusts than with a stranger when she might  be frightened and confused

forgot to say have just heard that the behaviouist has been approved so maybe there is hope.

Good luck if going down the behaviourist/training route, I mean that even if not my own personal choice. It will be a long hard slog, but sometimes it can be worth it :-)  Make sure it is a praise and reward trainer.

Continue with segregation for the sake of the other dog, and please, please, please make sure the dog can never, ever get to your grandchildren, due to human error which even the most careful of us can be fallible to, if you have to lock her out of the house or in a shed when they are there do so, nothing is ever worth a child coming to harm.

Good luck.

This is such a difficult decision for you to make.

All i can say is, if the behaviourist route does not work. If she is affecting family life however then I think the best and kindest option for both you, your family and the dog would be to have her PTS.

My mother was in a similar situation some years ago with a Tibetan Terrier. She had had him from a pup however so his behaviour was a result of her. However he seemed to be an exception as none of her others turned out the same.

He could not be trusted around people or children. He would attack strangers especially someone in a uniform, and on many occasions went for my own children aswell as my brother, sister and thier children. My mother was oblivious to his faults though which im glad to see that you are not.

My sister threatened to have that dog put down so many times. Usually resulting in a huge row, the eventual result was everytime we visited the dog had to go in the garage. His behaiour seemed more protetive but he was still a dangerous dog that should have either recieved more training or should have been put to sleep IMO.

Good luck but please keep in touch with me via PM to how it goes as I will be there to help. Do you need any help in finding a good behaviourist as that is key to getting her assessed properly :-)