Wondering if anyone has experienced the same and/or has any advice.

I have a 5 year old intact male Dobermann. He is completely fine with all other dogs. He used to play with a few select dogs as a puppy but he was attacked by a intact adult Boxer, who ran across the full length of a field to us and instantly targeted just him, when he was 10 months old and he hasn't really played with other dogs since. He's been attacked several more times since then and other dogs seem to continually have a go at him.

He tends to be rather aloof and keeps himself to himself around dogs we don't know, although he will sometimes have a mutual sniff with females and neutered males. He does have some doggy friends who we have walked with 3 or 4 times a week for about the last 6 months, although he does become wary of these if they play too boisterously near him and he will move away from the situation (much to my surprise he met a dog whom he adored this week, a neutered male whippet, whom he felt confident enough to have a run with and a play with a plastic bottle they found).

As far as I can make out the "offending" dogs have all been entire males (some of these dogs are ok with my friends neutered males so aren't just nasty in general, and some entire males are fine with my dog). Weekend before last, he was attacked by 2 staffies who came bolting across a field to us - one was muzzled so couldn't do a great deal but the other one went completely berzerk at him and I ended up having to go in and grab hold of its collar with it going utterly demented (when the owner eventually took their dog off me he then proceeded to punch it in the face 3 times!!!). I had the most terrible chest pains after this incident and thought my heart was going to pack up right there and then!

My boy is now a nervous wreck around other entire males. Usually he will freeze and stand completely still and turn his head away looking very wide eyed whilst they sniff him and sometimes mount him (he never growls or snaps etc, even when being attacked) but, over the last week, 2 dogs have chased after him when he has moved off the track to give them a wide berth as we have approached each other and he has run off across the fields in flight which he has never done before.

I am now becoming terrified of another incident each time we see a dog we don't know or a dog who has gone for him in the past. Several places I now avoid completely, which has only left me with a choice of two (I don't drive). One of these is too busy in the morning so we do that one in the afternoon. The other place we go to in the morning after 9.30 so we miss the people who walk before work. Some days we'll see nobody and other days everybody. I have taken to putting him on the lead when other dogs are approaching as I can't bear the worry anymore (nor having another person tell me that there dog is "fine" for it then to go ballistic and for me then to hear "oh he doesn't usually do that!"). I used to be very confident and would always leave him off lead if the other person left their dog(s) off and most of the time everything would be ok, but I can no longer stand the build up of uncertainty as we approach each other. Usually I carry a large stick but I would rather these incidents were not happening in the first place. Putting him on the lead and keeping him close to me does not stop these incidents happening either, although at least I can try to defend him.

I am wondering if neutering would help in that it would lower his rank with these other entire males. I wouldn't say he is submissive (I would say he gives avoidance gestures rather than submissive ones..?), just plain scared and wants no type of interaction with the other dog at all. Presumably he reeks of testosterone though and other entire males see him as a challenge...? I'm worried that he is so nervous that neutering will make him even moreso and he might then become fear aggressive (something that he is not at all at the moment). Is this likely to happen? On the one hand I am well and truely peeved at the thought that I should put MY dog through another GA (he has lots of health problems and has already had 6), the risk of surgery, the increased risk of various cancers, and the possibility of changing his temperament for the worse, just because some numbskulls can't control their dogs but on the other hand if neutering would mean he was safer and we could both relax more then I will have to consider it (that or I will have to take up gambling in the hope that I will win big and be able to buy my own land!).

Any thoughts?

You're right in thinking that neutering a nervous dog can make him worse. I also don't think neutering a 5 year old will make any difference to other males unfortunately -that's speaking from personal experience of having neutered 3 year old males that were picked on by other males -it made no difference at all. I don't think either they or the entire males ever realised something had changed.Having said that, maybe it would be worth trying Tardak or Suprelorin to see? That way you would not have to go all the way for potentially nothing.

Such a difficult situation for you. :(

Thanks Marianne. I just don't know what to do for the best anymore. I feel so sad for him as he looks like he should be so big and brave :-( We're at the vets next week anyway so I'll ask about the Tardak etc then and see what he thinks. Our vet has never ever pushed for castration so hopefully I'll get an honest opinion!

I have had 2 male dogs, albeit Goldies, neutered later in life and can't say it made any difference to their behaviour or how other dogs perceived them, so in all honesty I don't think neutering Tali would make much difference.

What a nightmare for you and him. It's such a shame when you've not had any behavioural problems with him and my worry would be of him becoming fear aggressive through no fault of his own. It's a shame you don't drive as I understand you are limited as to where you can walk him.

Take care
Karen

As he has so little self esteem/confidence as a male reducing it even further by castration would do him no favours.

There will always be some dogs that 'have a go'. My neutered collie cross has an enemy which is a border terrier bitch, and we now avoid it like the plague as she has gone for him and bitten his bottom (sounds funny, but a sore bottom isn't nice) before. This dog chases him if he runs away, and snaps and growls, but if he turns to face her she becomes even worse, actually biting viciously. When she bit my dog she was so fired up she also bit her owner's hand when the owner tried to grab her.
Now if i see them coming we get out of the way or if they catch me unawares i call my dog to me and get between them, and be very big and angry with the other dog - shouting and making myself look big etc - the owner doesn't like it and says she is only playing (despite the time she drew blood on my dog and her owner),  snapping and growling and drawing blood isn't playing to us.
However, most dogs are fine, aren't they, so try not to worry about other people's dogs too much, as your nervousness might make him feel more nervous, and thus more likely to get bad reactions from others.
I wonder whether you would feel more confident walking him if you had one of those cans that emits a loud noise to scare off the other dog, in your pocket?

Have you read 'control unleashed' it has some good fun ideas for building up a fearful dog - although it is an agility training book. Basically you first need to clicker train the dog - prime him to respond to the clicker to a highly responsive level. Then when you see something they are frightened off you don't teach 'leave' but wait for them to glance that way. So as soon as he looks at another dog you click and reward. But you must get in quick at the first glance before he builds up a fear reaction. The fun in using this 'game' with the dog is you end up going out hunting the frightening monsters so that you can reward your dog and it builds you both up into a fun and possitive spirit. If you miss one it's just a game so no worries because you win more then you lose and as you see the dog building up their confidence you feel better able to cope with the odd slip up especially ones you can't help because they are due to lack of control of other dogs.And start off using high value rewards.

Poor you,

it does not sound to me as though he is an innately fearful dog but that a fearful attitude has been created by repeated bad experiences. After all, he had two male staffs pack on him.

Many young entire males will go through a phase of trying to throw their weight around and it really is up to owners to watch their dogs carefully and try to ensure order is maintained. So many fail to see the warning signs where head and tail go up and even the hackles. The dog pelting the full length of the park to get to another is a classic- and happened to me just the other day. Needless to say the offending dog was a young entire mastiff/staff cross with clueless owners, he was clearly out to win his spurs and had smelt my dog some way off.

For a dog to get told off within his own pack by dogs he knows is one thing, to get beaten up randomly by dogs he doesn't know is quite another and who could blame him for being scared. I don't want to over-generalise, but I get so frustrated with the owners of our more pugilistic breeds who keep their males intact but barely control them. In my neck of the woods anyway, you can almost guarantee that the offending male dog will be some sort of bull breed or Akita or Shar pei, or mixes of. I've always had terriers. I know they are trouble-makers. I keep an entire male, given his type I know that I have an extra responsibility for his safety and for other dogs. I wish others would do the same.

I think you probably need to carefully monitor and look out for entire males for the moment and avoid places that they may run around in willy nilly. You've said he gets on with the neutered male whippet- why not try to arrange some social events with this dog, somewhere safe for starters

Remember, sound intact male dogs will tend to ignore each other if possible, unless they are of a breed that has a zest for fighting, however, as youngsters, many intact males will go through a "what you looking at phase" some really looking for trouble and others try to bully younger dogs. Aside from this most Males will fight for territory and for bitches but there is little reason for them to fight otherwise. I see no reason therefore to get your lad castrated.

Make a concerted effort to have gradual and controlled exposure to nice bitches and neutered males and see how you go. I'd also consider going back to a good training class. Again controlled exposure to other dogs is what you need to build his confidence up. Don't worry about him not having free running for now. Do lots of pavement walking on lead and do search and find type games in the house, or garden, if you have one, to tire him out. Dobies are very bright so he should begin to enjoy this.

As an exercise I would be most interested if you could make a list of all the breeds that have attacked your boy to date and what sex and if intact?

I have to say i have seen this work before. A dog at flyball was constantly targetted by other males (entire and castrated) and eventually she had him castrated around 5 years. It did make a lot of differnce. My dog was obsessed with him and would no immediately if he was in the hall and would atack on sight, but now he takes very little notice, despite the fact that the other dogs body language has not changed at all. Again this male had very little interest in other dogs and tended to ignore them but the other dogs found him very offensive for some strange reason. I won't say it stopped all all dogs taking a dislike to him, but it certainly improved it.

The dog pelting the full length of the park to get to another is a classic-

gosh this happened to me with my zeus when he was alot younger i had to really drag him from under to big cross breeds while owner stood gormless looking on i had to shove the man in the shoulder to make him get his dogs off and when he got them by their collers we tried to get out the gate but his dogs dragged him a good 20 feet across grass and a pavement and they both jumped my boy again i had to end up kicking the dogs off my boy,
was very scary and for sure its made my boy a little wery after that but in genral his good and dont pay attention to other dogs he will play if they will, but if they snap at him (as the old womens little x breed from up the road does) he scarpers lol,
i wouldnt bother getting him castrated as i dont see my dog as the problem and i was told by one vet for him that is that it wouldnt really make any differance,
i wouldnt put your boy though another GA really , i know its a shame this keeps happening what is it about big dogs like rotties and dobs that they always seem to get attacked even if their not aggresive at all,?
my boy get on with any dog he's a big softy really but just latley if a dog attacks him he will pin the dog to the floor like a bear lock i yell BACK LEAVE and he listens but then if the other dog keeps coming and the owner dont get hold of their dog my boy will defened himself , (unless of course its the old lady up the roads little old mongrel dog dont know what it is about that one ) but zeus always runs a mile when he sees him, and he's a tiny old thing , but im glad i wouldnt want him to hurt the little chap, wish he wouldnt be so snappy tho and i do worry that one day zeus may snap back so i will walk away when we see him as the owner seems to think its ok for her dog to carry on so says nothing,

Hi Zarah, I am so pleased you have posted about this as I am currently in a simlar situation and although my dog has not been effected by the attacks, after last sunday my confidence has been knocked and I feel very low/tearful and nervous.

I too have a 5yr old entire male, but a GR. We have routine, same walk,time,day etc and mostly meet the same people in the park. Kez has great social skills, greets when a dog comes over to him and plays if asked and ignores when hes told off. He great with young and old alike, males and females. Entire or not. We've never had any problems with him.

However, our walk last sunday he was minding his own business sniffing and a dog greeted him and then attacked. Then ten mins later a very simlar situation. But on both occasions he just ran off. The last dog (a very large breed don't want to upset anyone by naming it) we met with no warning went into full blowen attack mode. The owners were on bikes and did nothing, I ended up in knee high water trying to rescue kez who was cornered. All three were males and from what I could see young so maybe challanging him ?

It is sad for him and he does not deserve it. Granted it doesn't happen every walk but more often than we would like

Alot of the time, I get frustrated with the owners rather than the dogs, as they think there dogs do not have problems, one owner sunday said her dog was just "showing off" the others had no control at all. I often wonder why he is "picked on as such" maybe becuase he is a softy or giving off the wrong signal or maybe because he is entire etc.

I hope things improve for you xxxx

aaaw, these poor poochies.  How horrible for you both, it certainly sounds like it has taken the enjoyment out of your walks.

you should bring him to meet my two girls. although both spayed now theirs nothing they love more than sniffing a big pair of b***s. they then turn into complete tarts and flirt outrageously! the boys love it!

Ive given up walking my dogs on a sunday before dark, because of the 'sunday walkers' who have out of control dogs who only get walked on a sunday and their owners havent a clue!

Tina S that has made me smile and LOL ;o)

LouiseDDB, must admit the only time we get trouble is on a sunday morning, monday to saturday nothing !!!! maybe need to avoid our park on a sunday. Last week because the clocks had changed and we had such a sunny day there were even more than normal.

> you should bring him to meet my two girls. although both spayed now theirs nothing they love more than sniffing a big pair of b***s. they then turn into complete tarts and flirt outrageously! the boys love it!

lol at Tina.  I read your reply and thought what on earth have I posted that got that reply.  Thought I must have been online in my sleep.  My boy certainly has balls but thankfully doesn't get hounded by other dogs.  One giant woof from him and they usually run for the hills.

Soo many replies! Thanks for the input everyone.

The general consensus seems to be that neutering will make no difference or potentially make things far worse then. I have spent some time Googling and general opinion on many other forums/message boards seems to be the same. I did find a few cases were people have found that neutering their dog HAS made other male dogs react more positively to them, but I have no idea whether these were nervous dogs or not (lucyandmeg - what was the dog at your flyball class like?). We have a vet appointment next week for something unrelated but I'm wondering whether I should even mention this at all now. He's not the kind of vet who pushes treatment or medication etc on you but I'm not sure whether I should even consider castration anymore, chemical or otherwise.

Tenaj - Control Unleashed is one of those books I've been meaning to read but not got round to it. He is clicker trained. To be honest though I've actually started doing the opposite of what you suggest - I try and get Talli to stay focused on me if I spot a strange dog I'm unsure of incase he catches the gaze of the other dog, who might consider his looking at them as "rude" or some kind of invitation to come over. I prefer it when I can sneak us both past another dog with neither dog being aware! I thought this was for the best for now. What do you think?

The Cautious Canine is another one I've been wanting to read. Does anyone know if it would be worth getting that as well?

freelancerukuk - I think you've hit the nail on the head with all you've said. The majority of other dog owners do seem to be completely ignorant to the warning signs their dog is giving off and their dogs have no recall to boot. Breeds that my boy has been attacked by include a male Boxer (intact), male Black Lab (intact), male Old English Sheepdog (not sure on this one), 2 male Staffies (one was intact, not sure about the other), male Weimaraner (intact I think), male Patterdale (intact). He has also been charged at, lunged at and bulldozed into by countless others, several of which have meet the end of my foot or stick. Over the last couple of years there seems to have been an influx of rather nasty male Black Labs for some reason. He also gets mounted a lot by other intact males. Thankfully we don't seem to have too much of a problem with the "fighting" breeds where I am. I can't say I've had much of a problem with females at all. The majority of them seem very taken with him if anything and I know one who is iffy around neutered males, but fine with Talli. [Apologies to people who have nice dogs of the above breeds!]

Usually at this time of year I would be doing just the one off lead walk in the morning and then a pavement walk in the evening when it's dark. Unfortunately he was recently diagnosed with arthritis in the outside toe joint of his front right foot. This means that I'm very limited in the amount of walking he can do on hard surfaces as it causes the joint to swell. He's fine on soft ground and we can be out for a good couple of hours with him running around with no ill effects, other than my blood pressure going sky high. We do play search games in the garden and he loves to retrieve. Maybe I will just cut the second walk out for now.

Going back to a training class would be a good idea. We went initially from when he was 12 weeks old until he was about 2, and ringcraft classes we started when he was 11 months and went there until he was about 3 (purely for the fun and socialisation, would never breed). When I think of all those intact males there and barely a cross word between any of them. Talli was much more confident then and not worried by the close contact of other entire males standing behind and around him etc.

I think part of the solution is that I need to drive! Unfortunately (a phrase that seems to apply a lot to me) I can't even afford the lessons, let alone the running of a car. Until then I think I will have to just continue to try and avoid the busy times and busy areas of the fields. We saw his whippet friend again this morning and the walk went without incident, other than passing a man on the way home who almost put on a ski display when whilst trying to hold back two lunging Bull Mastiffs on wet muddy ground . Next week we're hopefullly meeting with his Greyhound and Lurcher friends some mornings.

Wizaid - so sorry you are experiencing similar problems. How terrible to have 3 incidents on one walk! I really feel for you. It wouldn't be so bad if we had rude, in your face dogs, who needed a telling off but when they are so innocent it is especially hard to watch. I hope it doesn't change your boy. Sometimes when I have a run of not having incidents I start getting my confidence back up, but the places I walk seem to be unpredictable in terms of who else will be there. Hopefully if you only have incidents on Sundays you can just avoid that particular place for the day! Hope you don't have any more problems x

Thanks again all for the advice and ideas. Didn't get online til rather late so hope I mostly make sense!

I'm sorry you're having this problem, I can't say I've had similar problems, but I know it can happen!

I was wondering if it would be worth a behaviourist observing your dog, just in case he is displaying subtle body language which might cause these intact dogs to make a bee-line for him.

I've also heard that some dogs take a dislike to black dogs, I don't really know why, I know my GR once ran up to a Policeman in the middle of a disused airfield once barking like mad at him... not one of my proudest moments!! I was told afterwards it was probably that he was dressed in all-black.

My male is now neutered, but when he was about 8 months I took him to an outdoor socialising session at our local training club as he was such a goof and high energy, he still wasn't behaving appropriately around most dogs. Anyway, there were several breeds in this field, all off lead. A girl (one of the trainers) came in with her unneutered black lab. Within seconds of them meeting, they had a scuffle. I was mortified, but the trainer said it was no problem at all, they were just sussing each other out! Sure enough, it didn't happen again, although I've met this black lab a few times since while out on walks, and I can assure you, he isn't particularly nice tempered. My dog however, had never done this again, and will dash behind me if he feels threatened. The only breed he has been "pinned" by (2 occasions) has been by entire GR's. He has never fought back either, but I found that interesting...

I'm just trying to work out in my mind why your boy should be targetted so regularly. What is his body language like when he meets? Does he allow them to sniff? Does he "eyeball" them?

I hope you manage to resolve this, but I would suggest you have a chat when you visit the vet next, they might have some helpful suggestions for you to try.

I don't want to over-generalise, but I get so frustrated with the owners of our more pugilistic breeds who keep their males intact but barely control them

Funny that my dog is an entire male stafford and he had exactl;y the same thing as the poster said (boxer ran full length of field to have a go) this happened twice on 2 walks one after another!!
So not always bullbreeds that start it, maybe they have been started on before and arent afraid to say back off I aint intrested as Ive been hurt before!

My boy is getting better, he has no time for dogs/bitches and will pull to get away from dogs, I wanted to show him but thats been put on hold as he is fearful or dominating (when the dog wont listen and has a useless owner who wont call their dog back GRRRRRRRR!!! )to compensate for his 2 bad expierances (both from boxers funnily enough) when he was only 6 months old.

I dont like it when people generalise staffs and bullbreeds as 'the dog' who starts everything (i know it was said lightly but it IS still generalising), my 2 dogs are both staffs and are constantly targeted even when we are minding our own business!!!

I have been in a similar situation, I have an entire 3 1/2 year old GR always been very friendly towards other dogs, entire males, neutered or females, he was attacked a few times out of the blue when he was younger and never retaliated, however he was attacked a few months ago by an entire alaskan malamute (who ran from one end of the field to the other to get to him) this is the first time my boy retaliated, luckily my OH was with me and seperated them, (AM owners not interested) then this dog did the same again again on a seperate occasion (my dog on lead) again OH sorted it out.  This has now left my dog fear agressive, and attempts to attack dogs that resemble the malamute (so GSD's etc) although he has never actually bitten one!  We are going through training both one to one and also with a group of dogs a couple of times a week and things are slowly getting better.  It does take time but I think we are getting there.

The trainer pointed out to me that one of our biggest problems was me, as soon as I see a dog that resembles the malamute, I panic and obviously my dog picks up on this.  Both the trainer and my dogs breeder think that castrating would not help and could make matters worse - so for the time being it is lots of training and confidence building for my boy.  I have also started to use a halti head collar on walks as I find this really helps control him and he cannot lunge when he is wearing that.

Good luck with your boy, I am sure with training, patience and time, you will be more confident and in control which will have a positive affect on your boy.

Hi, sorry to hear about your current situation-I really don't envy you. It's a shame you didn't drive & you could take him somewhere with no irresponsible dog owners!

I'm fortunate to live in the country so I rarely come across any problems when I walk my dog locally, although I like to vary his walks & we go to parks etc., further afield fortnightly, & he gets targeted quite often, he is a huge neutered Akita X Mastiff & is dog/people friendly. I usually wear steal toe cap boots & I'm left with no choice but to boot the dog in the head if one attacks him. I don't advocating using physical violence to any animal or person for that matter, but I have to protect my dog.  I'm fed up of people who let their dogs come charging over & clearly don't have any control what-so-ever!

My advice would be to try & avoid areas where you think you may come across irresponsible dog owners. Wear steal toe cap boots to protect your dog, & you can always call your dog warden to report aggressive dogs that are off the lead.

I've recently got a Dobe pup & once he's mature I may consider keeping a cattle prod on me whilst walking just in case. I'm not having some idiot's aggressive dog attack mine & scar them! I might sound harsh but I think you have to be nowadays. Good luck...

Only just read this post, not sure can give much advice only things I have experienced. From walking many dogs together- entire & neutered bitches & dogs together- I think in your case getting giving your boy the chop would not make a difference to how other strange dogs behave towards him. The incident with the 2 staffies coming hell for leather at your dog- one being muzzled- is obviously 2 manic loony out of control dogs that shouldn't even be off lead at all. Its just a shame that you feel the need to now carry a stick with you. Just like to add the crazy person before posting that he would kick a dog in the head with steel toed capped boots! Not how a normal dog lover would behave:-(..

Anyway back to my experience. When my dog had a aggression problem I put him in a non pull soft harness and a second lead around his throat and a baskerville muzzle he looked a bit like hannibal lecter! took him to what I thought was an empty field not a soul then as soon as I could say attack dogs 2 manic labs came bolting for him, as I had to keep my boy from firing back it was up to me to stop them so I stood in front of my dog luckily I was right next to a hedge so they couldn't get behind me at him. Put my hand flat out like Halt! facing dogs and shouted a big NO while eye balling them and they stopped- yes they did stand there and bark like crazy bouncy up and down but did not come into my space.

My son just told me a story when we looked after my friends boxer Rodney last weekend.Out walking the 4 dogs they came across a male entire dog he sniffed my snoop then my girl she wagged her tail then said hi to the people, my number 3 mutt starsks had heckles up but walked past this dog slowly then rodney went up to him and the dog went for him?? god knows why out of the 4 dogs he met he went for the youngest some dogs must just give off some strange ora...

Your boy sound brilliant avoidance is a great way to be, but some dogs see that as being meek- so like to take over the situation, maybe if you started walking him regularly with his new friend? it would give him some confidence when coming in to contact with strange dogs. My 3rd boy starsks is very nervous he's getting better but when I first got him he would do anything to keep away from a strange dog saying hi now he does I give him praise.