Sorry about another thread about the ABS.  The search facility now won't search as far back as I would like, so I hope you all don't mind my questions.  They are purely for my own curiousity :)

Are you a member of the ABS?  Why/Why not?

Are you intending on joining it?

I'm just wondering if it really is beneficial as not many checks seem to be made on the members so is it just enabling some BYB's to have a bit of KC backing in a round about way?

i was going to join it but after looking in to it im not going to ...like you have said bybs love it !!!! it makes them sound great but alot of the public think "o thay must be good breeders to be apart of that and sadly any1 can join it ,even ppl that havnt even had their dogs health checked , if and when its got some sort of policeing (but not to sure how)
i will join it ..:) x

I'm a member, though no puppies on the way for at least 8 months (unless Ellie surprises us all!). There is nothing in the requirements that I wouldn't do anyway, and a lot more besides. But my breed is one of those most slated by 'that programme' and several dog magazines in the months after were telling Joe Public that they should pick a breeder that was a member. Also I have had a few puppy enquiries coming through lately through the KC, which I assume is because I'm on some ABS list, so if / when Madam co-operates with the puppy plan, I will have a headstart on getting a waiting list going, as well as the local breed puppy registers. :-)

I finally joined, not happy that things aren't strict enough, but again as it is so hard for general public to now what is a proper breeder decided I would.  Still goes against the grain that I have to pay extra to be part of a scheme that requires less from me than I have always done for my breed, pups and owners.

The one that gets me is the requirement to include breed characteristics in the folder, excuse me I would hope a puppy buyer would know a breeds characteristics long before taking a puppy home.  That is the sort of info I let people have at the enquiry stage.

I haven't joined thought about it on and off, but at the moment there is no reason why I feel I need to be on it.  People in my breed recommend me enough and thankfully have nice things to say that I see no reason for paying for it at the moment.

I am a member, although very recently.Thought about it and decided against it for a long time and was put off by the fact that in my Rare Breed the playing field was not level re the Breeders Accolades so I  thought that what is in it for me, I well exceeded all the requirments anway.  I am however, very keen that standards are raised for the puppy buying public, whelping bitches and puppies so I turned it on its head and decided the scheme would benefit from our support and the support of breeders like us. I ask for details of my litters to be witheld from the Puppy Sales Register and am so keen for my puppy owners to complete the puppy sales questionaire that I put stamps on the envelopes when they collect puppy.............nothing at all in it for me except that I am suporting a scheme that aims to raise standards ( albiet it painfully slowly) and to  edcuate the puppy buying public.

Diane

it always amazes me how some members dont belong to any breed club, havent bred litters or have dogs in the stud book which are the 3 symbols which you can have beside your name. so what makes them accredited?

I became a member right at the start and still am despite not breeding a pup for over 3 yrs now.  I far exceed the requirements for my breed ie I actually do health tests, non required by KC, I do object to licensed breeders using the term to imply they are superiour to home breeders.

I do notify the KC of any byb I know who have joined seems they get a visit if they are brought to the KC's attention earlier. 

Any ABS member who breeds 4 or more litters a year or bred that many the year prior to joining will get a visit. However the KC will visit any ABS members brought to their attention with regard to not fulfilling the ABS requirements.

Diane

Seems the sooner they put up a list of ABS members by breed the better any internal policing will be.

People will be able to checking who in their breed is listed and if they are known baddies can alert the KC to do more checking.

I have no way of knowing until I see the BRS details in our yearbook (about 18 months later) of who bred litters as they put ABS beside the persons name.

> Seems the sooner they put up a list of ABS members by breed the better any internal policing will be.

You can email the KC & ask for a list of ABS breeders in your breed - I've done that for my own breed & they send you back a computerised list virtually straight away.

Hi Jane

Would this email go to the general KC email address or a specific one?

I do belong to the ABS myself but know of some breeders in my breed whom are members but really shouldn't be and it makes them look good to be able to use the logo or the title in ads etc.

I am with you Barbara,

I joined against a lot of reasons where I thought I shouldn't have BUT on this one I thought lead by example.

There is a lot of bad going on with the scheme and it can only get better. I think they are and will tighten it up.  If the good dont join and raise the standards it doesn't help.

I don't breed a lot but still thought I would show my support.

Those that breed a lot are perhaps a bit more cautious on joining for various reasons but if they are doing everything right etc etc

haven't joined thought about it on and off, but at the moment there is no reason why I feel I need to be on it.  People in my breed recommend me enough and thankfully have nice things to say that I see no reason for paying for it at the moment.

Most good breeders are the same, I could sell 10 times the puppies I breed in fact probably more , most good breeders are joining to show they support some sort of change and what to be there setting examples.  There are many flaws BUT it may be the only tool we have soon if the likes of JH get their way. :-)

> Would this email go to the general KC email address or a specific one?
>

I just used the general contact form on the website

Thank you :)

The Kennel Club seem to realise there are flaws in the system and have mentioned recently that they will be asking breed clubs for input and perhaps members to go visit some of the people joining, I presume to check out their credentials. Also the reason they are pushing this scheme is to try and stop the Government legislating how and when we can breed our dogs etc. There is a big push to regulate breeding of dogs and the KC feel that if they are seen to be taking steps to improve health and welfare of puppies, then the Government will leave us alone and let them police it.

I notice the person who set up the computer system for the health tests etc, died recently was in Dog World recently. 

No I am not a member and until they tighten up on things I hav no intention of joining. As said previously byb's love it. I know of someone in our breed that although only started breeding approx 3 years ago already have bred more litters than me and having just had a litter are already planning their next. They were in their 70's before they had their first litter and are getting their enquiries not on their dogs achievements but on the fact that they are on the AB's list. In fact they are mating half brother to half sister (they own both) even though the mother of both carries HC. Also, having someone come to me with their concerns over them I find that they are not taking their puppy advertising off the KC and other sites even though the litter was sold immediately they were born (no Golden pups around at the moment) and when people enquire they are trying to sell their next litter to them (March onwards). Does that sound like someone you would want a puppy from. In my eyes they are puppy producers not responsible breeders.

>having just had a litter are already planning their next.

To be fair, that's what I'd expect - in fact I'd expect a breeder to have a rough plan in their head for the next 5 generations, which should only need tweaking according to the actual results.

> even though the mother of both carries HC.

Has she been DNA tested, if so then it isn't a problem if the half brother is clear, if there is no DNA test then this is highly risky breeding.

> I know of someone in our breed that although only started breeding approx 3 years ago already have bred more litters than me and having just had a litter are already planning their next.

I plan my litters well in advance (I know what I am planning for the next four years or so), you don't say how many litters they have bred, so it may not be excessive even if more frequent than some.

> I find that they are not taking their puppy advertising off the KC and other sites even though the litter was sold immediately they were born (no Golden pups around at the moment) and when people enquire they are trying to sell their next litter to them (March onwards).

What is wrong with getting bookings for puppies before they are born, that is preferable, the adverts stay on for a specific time and most people would not think of/bother to get them removed before they lapse naturally.

If their breeding practises are suspect then they need reporting to the KC so they can check things out.

I plan my litters well in advance (I know what I am planning for the next four years or so), you don't say how many litters they have bred, so it may not be excessive even if more frequent than some

Yes Barbara but you obviously have great experience in your breed. These are people who have not knowledge of what and why they are doing it. Their dogs are not proven in the ring like yours. I have ideas in my head of a dog I might like to use but may change my mind if another dog comes to the fore in the meantime. These people are just using their own dog. I believe it to be a good source of income to top up their pensions.

Unfortunately many people think that breeding large numbers of litters is a good thing!!

I'm still umming and arrring weather we should join, I mean all health test will be done etc etc, but our first KC reg dog was from a ABS member as we wanted to show him, and all I have to say is that it was by no way a signature of quality. I wouldn't change the dog for the world as he is the perfect family member but he is nothing like what the breed is meant to be (almost half the size). And a couple of years later we found that the said breeder had about 3/4 litters a year.

So for me until they KC sort it out I'm probably not going to join, the association with BYB though not intentionally puts me off completley.

I joined as I thought it would make a difference to the health & welfare of breeding dogs & help breeders.I very rarely breed,but all my dogs are tested,hip scored etc.I did not realise at the time that even puppy farmers .BYB could join.

Thanks everyone for your views :)

>I joined as I thought it would make a difference to the health & welfare of breeding dogs & help breeders.I very rarely breed,but all my dogs are tested,hip scored etc.I did not realise at the time that even puppy farmers .BYB could join.

I really don't think it helps to convince people that joining the scheme is a good thing when AB's advertise their puppies on a secondhand website like Preloved :-( Maybe they are a BYB but I was quite shocked to see it.

I joined in the early days of the scheme, full of good intentions until I saw how it was being abused by a few people.   I then let it lapse, but actually rejoined after That Programme as I felt that he Kennel Club needed the support of good breeders more than ever, and they showed they were making an effort to get their house in order.

May sound pompous, but I don't need the KC to vouch for my dogs, they speak for themselves,  but the KC does need the support of us.

Jo

I have to say that I have a different take on this Jo. I would really like to be a member of a scheme which shows that a breeder is 'Accredited' but still feel at this stage that it isn't doing enough and still open to too much abuse. Also, I do feel that it is about time that the KC supported responsible breeders when in fact we see time and time again breeders trying to do things correctly and not getting the KC backing. I cannot bring something to mind that I could explain that statement at this moment in time but we have seen cases in question on this forum quite a few times.
Also I know of too many breeders that when asked why they have joined have actually answered 'well it helps sell your puppies quickly'. I cannot condone that behaviour.

I have just viewed an ad on the internet for a litter of my breed for sale. In the opening sentence of the ad they state they are KC Accredited Breeders, in that same sentence they state the pups will be sold with NO endorsements. And also that they will be ready for viewing at TWO weeks old....
No mention of ANY health testing on either of the parents.

What really is the point in this scheme ? As it is, it serves to completely mislead the general public. A truly baffling scheme whereby completely ignorant, uncaring backyard breeders can claim to be a member of a scheme which is presumably aimed at decent breeders doing everything in their power to breed healthy, quality dogs.

Unless, there is a complete overhaul of this scheme whereby it does "what it says on the tin" I refuse to join.

Recently i was informed of an Accredited Breeder that had been registering 1 extra girl puppy, that didn't actually exist, every time she had a litter, and by doing this was able to breed her bitches every season, and of course the true parentage would be incorrect with some of the litters.  On top of this, she was also using 'friends names & addresses to register the litters because of the huge numbers of litters she was having. 

A member of the breed club told me about this, and they had been trying to get this stopped for a number of years.  Eventually, she has now been struck off the AB scheme but it is absolutely disgusting that the KC knew about this for many years beforehand. 

No i would never join this scheme, there are just too many breeders that do it because 'naive' puppy buyers think it is the proper way to go.

A member of the breed club told me about this, and they had been trying to get this stopped for a number of years.  Eventually, she has now been struck off the AB scheme but it is absolutely disgusting that the KC knew about this for many years beforehand.


I don't see how the KC knew about it.. how could they.  They would have to know it for fact.  How did the person that told you know about it?

You could join and lead by example, every thought of it that way??    Half full or half empty :-)

Copy the ad and send it into the kennel club.

> A member of the breed club told me about this, and they had been trying to get this stopped for a number of years.  Eventually, she has now been struck off the AB scheme but it is absolutely disgusting that the KC knew about this for many years beforehand.
>
>
> I don't see how the KC knew about it.. how could they.  They would have to know it for fact.  How did the person that told you know about it?
>

It was reported to them but absolutely nothing was done.  It was only through the breed club investigating via a 'helper' providing facts, that after many years she was struck off.  IMO the KC are happy to rake in the money but don't seem prepared to monitor/investigate appalling breeding.

The problem is for clubs including the KC is that so many stories are fabricated it is hard to sort the truth from naughty lies.   You only have to stand at a ring side to hear some stories so far from the truth it is crazy.   The kc are far from perfect but they are at this moment the best we have.    More suppory may help them .