I was browsing the Pekingese Club Of America's web page and came across a pilot study that they are running with the National Institute of Health. Its aimed at understanding the genetics of BAS/BOAS in brachycephalic breeds. The aim is to use a combination of blood tests, physical measurements and health information to find gene(S) important in this condition. Apparently the UK has just been accepted in this study. Dr Nicholas Small in Middlesex is a member of the PCA health committee and will be coordinating the UK part of the study, hopefully to include various brachy breeds.
I think this is very exciting, and would certainly put my Olive forward as a candidate. Have other brachy breed owners/breeders heard of this study or got any more information?
thanks

I haven't heard of this but would certainly be interested in the findings.This has come a bit too late for me as my frenchie Louis died 10 weeks ago - he had brachycephalic syndrome from a young age - he was 22 months when he died and had become progressively worse. He was actually booked to have a soft palate resection, nostrils opened and his laryngeal saccules removed if necessary.

I am hoping that my pup Pierre doesn't develope this condition and would gladly put him forward as a candidate too.

Thanx for bringing this to my attention - off to see if I can find any more info! :)

Hi Killickchick
Im so sorry about your little frenchie Louis. It just demonstrates how quickly poor dogs with it can go down hill.
I have been in contact with the man doing the study in the USA and he said that the study over here is in its infancy and they are presently negotiating with the Peke Club for samples(blood).
He asked if I would be interested in donating Olives blood as this could be sent quite easily by post with no problems. He asked if I knew of anyone else that would be interested (healthy and unhealthy doggies). It would involve a blood sample and questionnaire.
I don't want to step on anyones toes over here that are involved in the study, so I have contacted the Pug Dog Club and Peke Dog club to see what they think. I will let you know as soon as.

this sounds very interesting, tell us what exactly is involved and i will put george forward for it. as you know george can not go under anesthetic or sedation so if that is not involved then lovely, well done olive xxx

Oh Colleen I was so shocked and so sorry to read the post about your little Louis.  Thinking of you.  Love from Lorna, Mimi, Louis and the rest of the Frenchie gang xxx

Hello Lorna, and thank you for your kind wishes. xxx

My darling boy has gone, left us with such a gaping hole in our lives :( I still miss him so much - I think for me, he was that one in a million, special dog - his death has affected me so deeply. I don't quite know when I will get over it. His death was such a shock - one minute he was fine, the next he was gone. He was at the vet waiting for his op, the vet checked on him and when he went to prep him 5 mins later, found him dead. We didn't want a P.M. done - we just wanted to bring him home.

We bought Pierre 4 weeks before Louis died, they were friends for too short a time but it was so wonderful watching Louis be so gentle with him, sharing his food and toys - he really was a most special, loving boy.

Thank you Olive1 too :) Please let me know how you get on with this, details etc. x

Hi Olive,

Glad to see you back and with news of the study in America. I had hoped that information like this might have been a part of Jemimas programme so that pet owners and any one thinking of breeding from their dogs might stop and think carefully about getting health testing done before breeding.

I have been aware of this site for a while now, as I have had pekingese in the past and the last one I co-owned passed away (from old age) a few years ago, it lived abroad, and never had any problems with the heat. I think this type of information should be passed around and shared even with people not involved in these breeds as they might know somebody who does have one of these breeds and it might save somebody having a puppy with health problems.

If you find any more information I hope you will post it on champdogs.

I don't want to be a dampener on this research, but have to say that I'm at a bit of a loss to understand why it's being undertaken. BAS is a multi-factorial disorder and I think it's very unlikely that there is an easy genetic solution to be found. This isn't really a genetic problem - it's a conformational one. And as to why some pugs or pekes or boston terriers etc get it and some don't - surely it's just a tipping point in terms of this conformation? Breeding for a longer muzzle, less wrinkle and open nares (as indeed the new breed standards request) should help a lot.

Olive, perhaps you could run this by the researchers?  I'd be interested to hear their response.

On a related note, Germany has introduced a new function test for anyone wanting to breed from a pug - the dog must be able to walk 1000m in 11 minutes and a vet needs to examine the dog before and after doing so to check for any sign of distress.

Jemima

> I don't want to be a dampener on this research, but have to say that I'm at a bit of a loss to understand why it's being undertaken. BAS is a multi-factorial disorder and I think it's very unlikely that there is an easy genetic solution to be found. This isn't really a genetic problem - it's a conformational one. And as to why some pugs or pekes or boston terriers etc get it and some don't - surely it's just a tipping point in terms of this conformation? Breeding for a longer muzzle, less wrinkle and open nares (as indeed the new breed standards request) should help a lot.
>

surely a genetisist has more knowledge than you, hence the informative research rather than just sticking to the old conformation line. isnt it best to explore all avenues rather than just blaming one issue?

Clearly, breeders want to have flat-faced dogs that do not suffer respiratory distress. And I understand that; just feel that it's a bit of a long-shot to hope to find a genetic solution to the problem when breeding for a more functional head shape would be simpler.

Quite a lot has already been achieved, for instance, by breeders being more conscious of the need for open nostrils. (Not the whole story of course, but certainly a contributing factor).

Jemima

I would have to agree with Jemima.

So much that is attributable to conformation, in many instances is just not accepted to be so. It has always seemed very clear to me, but then I am not a breeder. I guess as the other poster said, not looking at just one possibility is a sensible one. The only problem that I see with that is that in the meantime breeders will hold off changing their breeding practices to achieve a better physiological structure, in the hope that they won't have to.

Great if they are doing both at the same time, otherwise not.

> So much that is attributable to conformation, in many instances is just not accepted to be so.

Then why do not all the dogs with the same conformation have the problems?

I agree to a certain extent that some conformations will make some issues more likely.

Red haired people do not do well in a lot of sun, dark skinned people may need vit A supplementation in cold climes.

Because there are no two breeds with the exact same conformation. If we look at brachycephalic breeds we have varying skeletal structures and size:

Say for example Boxer, Bulldog, Pekinese, Pug, all are different sizes, skull widths, muzzle length and width etc, so internal structures will be vastly different in terms of placement relative to other internal structures.

> I agree to a certain extent that some conformations will make some issues more likely.

Quite, that was the intention behind what I said. I am not suggesting that any line of research should be shelved, just that the possibility of conformation not be cast aside, which I think could be likely due to resistance within the breed. It is possible to start to address conformation breeding issues immediately, whereas genetic research can take many years and still not provide any answers.

> Because there are no two breeds with the exact same conformation. If we look at brachycephalic breeds we have varying skeletal structures and size:
>

I wasn't referring to different breeds but the same breed as only a minority have issues yet all have the breeds conformation.

>It is possible to start to address conformation breeding issues immediately,

I think you will find this will take just as long as changes happen gradually over generations.

i think that also they do not all show symptoms the same as each other,it does not mean however that they do not have the condition.Just being a pug with a flat face is enough to have increased risk to anesthetic, sedation etc. The amount of vets i spoke to when George was very ill all said the same thing, if you have a flat faced breed they are at a more higher risk of complications from anaesthetic and any problems thrown at them. It is the same with the spine problems. I George my pug did not have had larynx collapse or baos we would never have had his spine x rayed and would never have known the state of his spine. He has the wort spine the specialist has ever seen,but so far it has not affected him,but as i said if we did not have his spine x rayed we would have never known. How many more our out there with undetected spine problems or BAOS and what can a pug owner do to find out without unnecessary x rays to get an exact picture of how many are affected,be it slightly or severely, so you can not say only the minority is affected if you do not know what affect it has on the majority

> I wasn't referring to different breeds but the same breed as only a minority have issues yet all have the breeds conformation

Sorry, I didn't realise that. Still, I would come up with the same answer, each pup in each litter in each breed will have differences in sizes and shapes and conformation. As Joanne 1000 said, some problems will evidence themselves in a serious way, some will be slight, some will be there but not apparent. Any testing that currently goes on for some conditions is generally only done with breeding stock. It is very difficult to say what problems actually exist within the general population.

> I think you will find this will take just as long as changes happen gradually over generations.

Of course it cannot happen overnight. However if it is delayed for many more generations awaiting the outcomes of research that may provide no answers, an opportunity will have been missed to start the process now.

> Any testing that currently goes on for some conditions is generally only done with breeding stock. It is very difficult to say what problems actually exist within the general population.
>

Breeding stock will be representative of the population as a whole, and of course their importance is that they are the ones to pass on their genes, if the ones with no apparent problems are bred from problems will be minimised.

In my own breed around 20% of the total population are health tested so a very good representative sample of the breed population.

This level of representation is common in numerically small breeds, but sadly health tested stock is a tiny minority in the popular breeds, with only the most informed/conscientious/responsible breeders taking part.

For example I was rather shocked at how few Doberman are hip scored each year compared to the number bred, so assuming they have very good hip status may not be as accurate as it would be with higher percentage tested.

How do we ensure the vast majority of dogs are responsibly bred, you only need to look at recent posts on here to see how so many people think the only qualification their dog needs for being bred from  is entirety, and the only qualification they need to breed is wanting to do it, anyone suggesting differently is elitist or lecturing.

As an aside to the above I was just wondering whether the problems seen with extreme conformation increase when a breed becomes popular/exploited by those who care less about the breed than producing sellable puppies for a market.

For example in my own breed the vast majority of puppies are bred by breed lovers/aficionados who care deeply for their breed and the individual dogs, yet we still get the occasional thorn in our sides of people breeding for the wrong reasons, primarily in Northern Ireland, who care not one jot about registration health testing etc, many of these are sold though commercial outlets.

I have recently had dealings with one such who has bred a litter from a bitch purchased from a  friend and her own male, she was endorsed so that should they wish to breed the relevant health tests were to be undertaken and the bitch proven to be a typical example of the breed worthy of being bred from.

We have a basically very healthy breed, but PRA has been known and occurred in thankfully rare cases, due to the diligence of conscientious knowledgeable breeders, but it is there.  Fortunately since October last year we have a DNA test.  Who gets the blame if any of this womans pups have PRA, or Hip Dysplasia or are of untypical temperament, the breed and all breeders are tarred with the same brush.

> As an aside to the above I was just wondering whether the problems seen with extreme conformation increase when a breed becomes popular/exploited by those who care less about the breed than producing sellable puppies for a market.

Certainly the popularity of a breed, simply by numbers contributes to the overall picture of what is being bred currently. You would like to think that the exaggerations are attributable to bad breeders, but mostly I believe it is the reverse. I think that breeders adopt a preference, (especially under certain judges, who are also often breeders) and the changes gradually creep in and become accepted as standard, as a long term and almost unnoticed deviation from what was the standard. That and because the breed is popular, people will buy whatever is being bred, with tacit acceptance that it is how the breed is meant to look. In GSD's it is a little strange, as the exaggerations are certainly driven by the breeders and by the German SV, despite the majority of the general public as well as some very knowledgeable and genuine afficionados in the breed expressing a strong dislike of the modern germanic shape and it's problems.  

You are very lucky in your breed, it seems to have remained pretty well unchanged for many, many generations and close to a natural wild dog shape.

I have been reading up on genetics lately, and well, the whole thing is a minefield. I don't envy breeders in the slightest.

> You are very lucky in your breed, it seems to have remained pretty well unchanged for many, many generations and close to a natural wild dog shape.
>

I think you might find this page http://ravenstone.awardspace.com/history.html interesting bearing in mind old mostly amateur candid photographs.

I think the Dog Ch Ravenstone Gray from the 60's would look fine in the ring today, as woudl any of the 1970's adn later dogs and quite a few of the earlier ones too, though a lot of the photos are poor.

Well, It seems I was right - so little seems to have changed to my untrained eye, a little less 'cobby' now than in the 50's perhaps? A very interesting history too, especially as I know so little about elkhounds.

I rarely see elkhounds today, and even going back years in my mind can only recall one older lady who lived around the corner from me 30 odd years ago who had 3 or 4 (can't remember exactly), but I do remember they looked exactly as they do now :)

Even in the time I have been in the breed you find that every few years the winning dogs vary from the leggier to the cobbier and back again as the breed is always striving to combine strength and compactness with agility. 

So if the dogs are lacking in leg length breeders and judges concentrate on getting it back, then when there are more that are a bit too rangy they reward the compacter animals and back again when there are too many squat or heavy bodied, but the differences are really not that great and fortunately the range of acceptable type remains in the gene pool to keep striving for that balance.

Of course young dogs and mature dogs will vary quite a bit.

They vary a little in style also in Scandinavia depending on whether they are loose hunters or hunted in harness.

It's my personal belief that BOAS/BAS is purely down to conformation. I also believe it is severely under diagnosed by vets, and purely missed by owners, and many symptoms are just (in the case of many brachy breeds) put down to being "normal" for that breed. Lets take the pug for example. Snoring, snorting, and grunting are "normal". Exactly what I thought with mine.
It's my understanding that the study is not to simply find a genetic cause for the condition and thus in future a handy genetic test. I think conformation plays a huge part in this study.
The main question of the study is to find out whether genes that shape the skull are also responsible for BAS. The two questions they are asking are whether
1. are certain combinations of brachy promoting genetic variants more problematic than others than causing BAS.
OR
2. Being brachycephalic predisposes dogs to developing BAS

The way I see it is (i hasten to add my genetic knowledge is basic!), if they find a correlation between genes that shape skull shape and incidence of BAS then it goes towards proving that conformation is a major factor in predisposition.

I have no idea whether this syndrome is to be blamed on conformation or genetics, I don't really know enough about either tbh.
But I guess within my particular breed it could be caused by conformation.  The breed standard calls for short deep through with broad skull amongst other things, and it seems that there are many many Staffords now with extremely short muzzles, wide heads, extremes in my eyes.
A lady I had a discussion with about the Stafford being brachy, would not accept that the breed was or is becoming brachy, and perhaps in the 'official' defitinition of the definition of a brachy breed they're not.  When I explained how brachy breeds are defined and what the original usage was for classifying Europeans remains, she was very surprised.
Now I don't know if Staffords actually have been classed as Brachycephalic, but I'd be interested to know if they are or have been used in the study?

There are conflicting reports.  Some do list the SBT as a bracycephalic breed. But this from a UK vet suggests overlong soft palates are rarely seen in SBTs:

http://www.staffords.co.uk/sbtvet/palate.htm

Jemima

Thanks for that link, I have actually read it through a few times being as it's from the parent club website, I've also read on some sites that some do feel that the SBT is a brachy breed.
Having known a couple of people that have had to have their Staffords operated on due to this illness, I thought it might well need to be highlighted too.

I always thought part of the definition of Brachycephalic  was the undershot mouth and Stafford's are supposed to have a normal scissor bite???

If staffs are considered Brachycephalic then msot of the bullbreeds would be too????

When Olive was diagnosed with laryngeal collapse grade 3, her soft tissue specialist told me of a staffy with the same problem that had to have a permanent tracheostomy hole.

Indeed Brainless, Staffords are supposed to have a scissor bite, but there's a huge difference in what they're supposed to have, and what some actually have I guess. 
I'm sure I read that some Bracycephalic breeds can present with a scissor bite occlusion due to the mandible being bowed?

I haven't studied enough about other bullbreeds to be able to comment on their status as Brachycephalic, but I understand the bulldog is thought to be?

> but there's a huge difference in what they're supposed to have, and what some actually have I guess. 

This was the point I was getting at in an earlier post, are the dogs bred by people breeding to standard the ones with the problems or all the BYB bred ones where type is irrelevant, this goes more for the poor tinies, like the Chi's and Pugs etc.

I do wonder if these predisposing traits if kept in moderation by knowledgeable caring breeders cause problems if bred from Willy Nilly.

Otherwise why are there so may health examples of Brachy and toy breeds?

For example slipping patellas are an issue with small and short legged breeds, those breeders who know this avoid the issues with selection, but those just producing pups don't select against the negative traits.

> This was the point I was getting at in an earlier post, are the dogs bred by people breeding to standard the ones with the problems or all the BYB bred ones where type is irrelevant, this goes more for the poor tinies, like the Chi's and Pugs etc.

Aah, I see.  Well I can't speak for breeders who breed to the standard or BYB either, but from what I've seen within some KC standard bred Staffords, the exaggeration I was speaking of earlier certainly does seem to be producing the problems.
i.e. shortened muzzle, breeding for a wider head. 
Granted, shortened muzzles are nowhere near as short as some of the other breeds that suffer from BAOS, but I'm fearful it will get that way.

>

> are the dogs bred by people breeding to standard the ones with the problems or all the BYB bred ones where type is irrelevant, this goes more for the poor tinies, like the Chi's and Pugs etc.

Its the standard (pug) that is the problem to start with. The "tiny" changes made to the standard (in my opinion) will do nothing to prevent more pugs developing BAS of varying degrees, many undiagnosed as I mentioned before.
BYB's are probably making the situation worse mind you, churning out poor dogs with bulging eyes etc.

> The "tiny" changes made to the standard (in my opinion) will do nothing

Even if the Kennel Club had rewritten the standard to say the pug should have a long nose like a retriever or a collie  it would still take many generations before this changed. Unfortunately nobody, not vets, not breeders, not scientists and not the KC can wave a wand and change things overnight. As long as there are people wanting to buy flat faced dogs there will be people willing to breed them, some will do it because like you they care about the breed and try to breed the best with the least health problems, but as you know others will do it because they only see £ signs. :-(

Ok, this is what Ive gathered up so far about this study;
The US side of the study is ongoing between the American Peke Club and the guy doing the research (Jeff Schoenebeck) at the Ostrander Lab at the National Institute of Health.
The labs previous doggy work can be seen at http://research.nhgri.nih.gov/dog_genome/

The UK study is in the very early planning stage and is being done by Dr Nicholas Small of the UK Peke group. Their info on this can be found at http://www.pekesprogress.co.uk
Dr Small is on the Peke clubs health committee and is working on this with the KC. Jeff Schoenebeck is meeting Dr Small in December where they will hopefully find a way of getting UK participants involved. If people want to learn more in the interim about the study or request blood kits they need to email the samples manager Donna Viglietti at dog_genome@mail.nih.gov . She handles owner requests and overseas shipping etc.

The Peke and other brachycephalic groups have formed a new group BCDOG (brachycephalic dog open group) who are planning this study.
Info on the group can be obtained by emailing coordinator@bcdog.co.uk

If anyone wants to get involved, I would personally approach the above groups but also your own breed club and ask them if they are taking part.
Hope that wasn't too confusing!

> Their info on this can be found at [url=http://www.pekesprogress.co.uk" rel=nofollow]http://www.pekesprogress.co.uk[/url]

I wrote an article on this group last year, before the PDE programme, they were raising money for health projects then, and were doing an auction among other things. I try to keep up with the peke world as I had an interest in some pekes which were shown in Europe.

It seems like the project is in response to pressure from the KC

> It seems like the project is in response to pressure from the KC

The KC does change breed standards and has done so over the years, with health aspects for the breeds in mind. They do recognise that changes can only take place slowly over time, so yes perhaps the pressure was from the KC but also pressure comes from with in the breed clubs too. In fact in my own breed club we have no requirement to test for PRA or HC from the British Veterinary Association and Kennel Club, but after pressure from breed club members we are now testing for PRA and HC yearly.

Another breed I had a lot of dealings with many years ago were the first to get eye health status printed on their pedigree registration papers after breed club members put an application to the KC for this to be done. In a few weeks time I will be helping at a health testing day they are holding, even though I have no interest in that breed I know a few people in the breed clubs and they have asked me to help, so I am still 'doing my bit' for dog health. I am still running the eye testing sessions in my local village hall which I have been doing for the last 28 years, next year will be the 29th year and this is for any breed of dog and we also have cross bred dogs and unregistered dogs attending.

I have a young male frenchie (bubba)  for the last 4 weeks we have been out of our minds with worry...we woke one morning to find bubba had vomitted a large ammount of blood we took him to the emergency vets straight away........it cost us £357.00,,,,they kept bubba in for 2 days..on collecting him it cost us another £452.00...a few tablets to take home and no exact answers to wot caused this.....we did ask lots of questions,but the vet did not seem to have a diognosis as yet....after 2 sleepless nites at home with bubba still vomiting and collapsing while going blue we took him back to the vets and explained we was not happy with his treatment they shown us the xray and told us he had a blood clot on his lung...they then refered us to a heart specialist,,,i was not happy with this  as i did not think this had anything to do with his heart...we then made the decision to change vets....On seeing the new vet he told us straight away wot he presumed bubba,s problem was...BRACHYCEPHALIC.......and most probably had digested food back into his lung while vomiting....while on the table bubba had one of his vomiting do,s and the vet seen 1st hand what was going on...he said that if this was not sorted it would have been fatal .....we made the right decision to change vets!!!!!!!!!luckily we have insurance as we paid the other vet over a £1000.00 in fees which we could of had a dead dog at the end of it...bubba is still unwell,,,but improving with treatment........What was the start of your dogs illness,,,,did he have any of these symtoms?  i am so sorry for your loss,,,,,and hope yout new pup does not suffer the same,,,we also have put deposit down on a bitch,,but i am really concerned wether to get her or not....ailsa 

hi alisa robby,
i own a pug who has baos, his symptoms were at the start being a fussy eater, complete exhaustion after a walk, excess drooling, regurgitation of food,towards the worse of his symptoms he would scream and collapse onto the floor. we were referred to Cambridge vet hospital where the problem was diagnosed, he had his airways widened,his soft palate trimmed, they could do nothing for his collapsing larynx but that improved when he recovered from surgery. George also has a hernia caused by baos and this does cause vomiting and regurgitation,but he is on tagamet syrup to control this as the danger with inhaling vomit food etc i was told could cause lung infections,which actually happened on the operating table when he was put under, with george now we cannot have any operation unless it is life threatening, if i were you i would make sure your vet has good knowledge on your breed of dog and is willing to refer you to specialists if your dog needs it or if you ask. the first vet i had for george was terrible, i took him to her because his eye was so slimy and sore looking,she put the green dye in it and said he had hayfever and gave me drops. i put the drops in the next day and george went nuts,screaming etc, i immediately called another vet practice 30miles away who had an eye specialist there (which is rare in cornwall) and he looked in georges eye and said he had an ulcer and entropion and the drops i was prescribed was causing him pain,  i learnt a hard lesson there and i often wonder if george would still be here if i stayed with the first vet , i doubt it

not yet a boston terrier owner but such health problems are very worrying. Surely if people bred the best to the best it will decrease the chances? Far to many people breed poor example dogs for nothing but a way of income.

If people breed dogs for health rather than looks alone it can only improve? Id much rather a healthy happy dog than a unhealthy dog whos bred just to look the certain way a profit business like the kennel club say a dog should look.

Id put my dogs through any tests provided and even then id want to get the dogs very fit and test what does what looking at pros and faults before thinking of a breeding programe.