A friend has a dog(not shown,not my breed) in partnership with a champshow judge and wishes to enter another unrelated dog under them. There is no KC ruling preventing this, but is it ethical to do so? I said its not done ,but interested in others views.
Angela

ethical ..MMmm  how many times do you see friends showing dogs under thier <friends> even on first name terms when they rush to the judge to hug them to say thank you calling them by thier first name hanging onto thier CC certificate....!!!!!!! sometimes its a case of cant beat 'em so join 'em.

I wouldnt I would prefer to win on my dogs merits.

My last show entry figures was down by half because everyone knew who would get the tickets , I entered anyway the judge was lovely but the result was as expected. Its laughable..

>how many times do you see friends showing dogs under thier <friends> even on first name terms

When you've been 'in' a breed for a couple of years, going to shows, going to club meetings, being friendly and chatting to others in the breed on the benches, you very soon become on first-name terms with a lot of people. One day you're showing with them, another day they (or you) are judging. It doesn't mean they're going to automatically place your dog!

I don't see any problem as such as it, but in reality depends I suppose on the breed.  With my breed in reality, everybody would know me and in reality about 70% (if not more) would have my lines in their dogs somewhere.   Depends on the judge, I would always judge on the dogs merit and never as to how friendly I am with a person.

I do know that JJ... I know most breeder/judges myself some I am <friends > with others aquaintences there are people I know well who are judges I would not enter a show under them even if I know they like my 'type' as I dont feel it is appropriate, I would not feel deserved of the placing if I recieved one and would feel upset if I didnt so I do not enter under particular judges who I know, although obviously this isnt the feeling of most people.
I dislike hearing peoples comments around the ring the tut tuts and shaking heads , as honestly speaking everyone knows who is 'pals' with who and some  people know when they are most likely to receive a ticket I dont care what anyone says!!
When I do well I know its because my dog is worthy not for any other reason.

> they rush to the judge to hug them to say thank you calling them by thier first name hanging onto thier CC certificate..

Todays judge is tomorrows exhibitor and vice versa. Of all the CC shows this year I stand along side over 75% of judges at shows when we are all in the same boat. If they are all 'friends' - how do they decide which 'friend' to give it to?
What should folk do...not make friends, not speak to anyone at shows and more importantly.......not show under anyone they know and like. Cuts out lots of shows for me and many others I'm sure.
Rather implies that if you enter under someone you know and then win...they or you are dishonest.

And if you dont enter then do you think your friend is dishonest?

people who judge I know will not like my comments but it happens I have seen it  myself ,people have told me the result before the show and some people who do not travel  too far too often go from the far south to the far north and receive the cc when the whole year they dont enter the long distance shows if the udges 'dont suit'. This is fact.
This isnt me being nasty I have had this said to me umpteen times and pointed out to me when I have sat at the ringside over the years and finally I am truelly seeing it for myself .
The only time when its not predictable is when its a all rounder judge then the entry nearly doubles because its open to anyone and this reflects in the results that speaks volumes to me.
I suppose after my comments people wonder why I bother showing .. I enjoy it its a day out if we have a good day great if not then thats the way it goes but please dont fool yourselves that this is all about the dogs...it aint.

Toools
No I dont think my friends are dishonest I meant I know they will like my dog as she is  thier 'type'  but prefer to be placed without controversy.

In total agreement with everything Starryeyes has said.

Barry & Margaret

> I would not enter a show under them even if I know they like my 'type' as I dont feel it is appropriate,

The thing is surely you want to show under people whose opinion you value.

If we didn't show under people in our breed who we all will get to know and be Friends with eventually, then you are left only with judges whose opinions may be of less value, or all rounders.

The most valued wins are under those who you respect in your breed.

I was delighted to have made up my first champion under one of my mentors, the recognised doyenne of my breed, yes she owned my foundation bitches sire, though this bitch was 3 generations on from her though her grand sire was also bred by this person.

Have to agree with "some" of what Starryeyes has said, this probably happens in all/ most breeds on some occassions. However the bit about all-rounders being different, "some" of the
all-rounders are just as predictable/ if not more so than some of the breed judges. I say "some", our young dog got his 2nd CC from an allrounder recently, who we do not know, and it was the persons first time giving tickets in the breed. He got his first CC from a breed judge, who we do know, but I don't think that our dog did not deserve the CC? just because we know her, after 16+ years in the breed, I probably know 90% of the judges in our breed, to one degree or another. Our champion got her first CC from an all-rounder who did not know then, but now know quite well, as we have spoken lots of times since he first awarded our girl the ticket,
It's swings and roundabouts. As others have said, you can't go through showing for years without making "friends", and also getting to know what type of dog certain judges like, which judges may "face" place, and which ones appear to be fairer. You pays your money (or not) and takes your chance. I've just kept records of those who I would enter under again, and those I wouldn't.

Kay

Barbara's right - we are a small group of exhibitors in elkhounds, and most of us know each other and are friends, with one or two exceptions.  It would mean that no one would enter under breed specialists, as there would be no one left to enter if friends were excluded.
I judge myself, and on several occasions have had people I consider friends enter under me.  I am confident that I judge honestly, judging the dogs, not the people at the other end of the lead, and I would be insulted if anyone suggested otherwise.
I do think that family members showing under each other is a bit different though.  My parents judge too, and I would never consider entering my dogs under them, even if they hadn't boarded/handled them.

Have to agree with Vanhalla, don't think I have won under you yet, always hoping though ;)

you may be right Kay about all rounders as you have been around our breed a lot longer than myself. I am not bitter I have a bitch who I bred  who got  RCC as a puppy and gets placed most shows she enters I am 'unknown' in my breed ,but the top honours now thats a different kettle of fish , I am stating it as I see it. I am also not only referring to my breed I have heard this is across the board.
It delights me when I see different dogs recieving the CC who have been by-passed by some for the 'names' I love it when judges have the 'bottle' to give it to the dog they judge best on that day, not to keep certain people sweet!!
Lets face it it goes on in all sports and competitions showing dogs is no different we are all human after all.

It seems to be forgotten that we all pay a lot of money to enter these shows and if people who didnt get anywhere didnt go there would be no competion and no thrill for those who are handed over the CC and BOB at the end  , when its judges fairly ...it brings a tear to my eye when a unexpected dog receives the honour, but when its a given ...its sad..

Have to agree there Ron, and I like the way you put it.

Love - Kay

just adding on not replying to anyone in particular.

i entered in a class against my breeder. she was placed i was not. she even admitted to me when she spoke to me later that i had the better dog but she was better known and unfortunately some judges arent brave enough to place a beginner against a well known face and fellow judge.

> when she spoke to me later that i had the better dog but she was better known

Also sometimes the better known or more experienced exhibitor can show their dog to better advantage than the newcomer has yet learnt to with their better animal.

I believe that Jafrak Phillipe Olivier top dog all breeds was the owners first dog.

> Also sometimes the better known or more experienced exhibitor can show their dog to better advantage than the newcomer has yet learnt to with their better animal

yes i would agree with that, i didnt show her to her best. however surely a good judge should be able to see how good a dog is handles well or not?

>> how many times do you see friends showing dogs under thier <friends> even on first name terms
> When you've been 'in' a breed for a couple of years, going to shows, going to club meetings, being friendly and chatting to others in the breed on the benches, you very soon become on first-name terms with a lot of people. One day you're showing with them, another day they (or you) are judging. It doesn't mean they're going to automatically place your dog!

Mmmmmmmm not always the case though is it JG, there are some reknown facey judges out there.  This year I have texted friends the night before they've gone to a show with my guesses for the CC winners (Just my breed I hasten to add) - so far, I have a 100% record!    

I'm not long in the show world and entered into it somewhat naively. I absolutly love showing my dogs and get a real "buzz" competing and spectating. I agree though that not all is fair in the ring and it saddens me that these are the people we should be able to respect for their expertise and good judgement. I'm slowly learning which judges seem to be fair and which aren't. I agree with Starryeyes that this is a very expensive hobby and if it wasn't for people like me there would be little competition out there. I KNOW also that my dogs placeings have been to their detrament because there have been "faces" in the ring. There have been times I have wanted to Jack it all in as I too have predicted the places correctly as soon as I have looked in the catalouge. But you know what? I enjoy this and love my dogs with a passion, they enjoy themselves as much as we do we have a lovely day and chat to lots of people. There ARE some fair judges out there but all of this makes me very warey but why should we stop?
I personally would like to see a lot more "guttsy" judging out there. Judges who aren't afraid to go with their gut feelings and rightfully place the dog and not the owner. Live and let live for goodness sake. There's nothing like seeing the look on an owners face when theie dog gets the place they deserve.

In my opinion the fact that they co-own a dog makes it little too close to home.
As to co-own they must be pretty good friends, not just bench buddies.
It could of course go the other way as well, dog not getting the place it deserve because of the link and worry of what people will say.

If they are good friends, why not save a penny and just talk to the friend to get a "critique" from them :)!
As in the end that is the reason people show, to get the judges opinion of their dog, isn't it.

I have co-owned a dog and will soon co-own another one and I would not dream to go under the co-owner!
Why would I as I speak to them all the time and can ask what they think of my dog without paying for it

I think as already said, but over your years of showing you are bound to end up with friends moving on to judging.

If your dog is in tip top condition, ie not out of coat, the correct weight, ect why not enter after all if your dog wins because it is the best in the ring well so be it.  If however it won out of coat and looking the worst ever then you would do an injustice, but if friend is a good judge they shouldnt do you any favours anyway!!

> Why would I as I speak to them all the time and can ask what they think of my dog without paying for it

I can ask my friends what they think of my dogs, but I like to compete against their peers to see how they compare against the best of the others ;)

If I might be upset by their decision I would not enter, but I have to accept they may prefer another on the day or altogether.  Friendships should be strong enough so as to be able to take a fair judgement and to give one.

I am a newcomer to my breed and was told not so long ago by an established exhibitor that the only way to make your dog up is to go under your friends. Whilst new to my breed I am not new to showing but I have to say I was a bit shocked to hear it voiced so openly.

That is so cynical, it is a wonder they still show.

If that were the case then I would just have the one CC from my mentor which did make Jozi up but she got two more that year from all rounders, and 5 more after that).

Her daughter had two CC's from all rounders and one from a person in the breed I knew slightly.

My latest champion got her first CC from a breed specialist who I do know but isn't a close friend(after RCC's one each from specialist and all rounder) her second a breed specialist who I am acquainted with of course, her third from an all rounder, also had a RCC from a friend.

As a sociable person in a numerically small breed I know everyone who is a specialist, some are very good friends, some Friends, acquaintances, and others (mainly Scottish or far Northerners or who are no longer active) I have passed the time of day with.

Unless a very unfriendly sort a breed specialist will invariably put up a Friends dog, unless it happens to be a owned by someone at their first show like the one I bred who got his  first CC and BOB from their first all breed champ show.