Let me give you some background information... Ima is a Mini Schnauzer, as a puppy she attended puppy training classes, she did great.  We walk her twice a day.  Ima walked with me to and from school everyday, never a problem and she has always been a fantastic friendly girl, with people and children.  Ima is walked off lead regular and her recall has been fantastic.  I have 4 children, who respect Ima and love her and she loves them, i never leave her alone with the children, not that i dont trust either but its what i have been taught. 

Ima is now 10 months old and is developing a few problems when out, why i just dont know....Recently my partner took her for a walk to our local park, a walk i hasten to add that has has done every day of her life.... at he lower part of the park the dog owners take there dogs and walk off lead.  Recently a guy walking 4 Rottweilers off lead, one of his dogs chased Ima, she was very scared and it wouldn't leave her alone, eventually the guy came and removed his dog (it wasnt hurting Ima but was very boisterous), the same day my partner took Ima to the top part of the park, where the children all play, he took her off lead as he never has had a problem with her before.... Now as he was at the Park a child came running out of the bushes in front of Ima and it scared her, she started to bark and ran after the boy barking and growling, the child ran off screaming.....  my partner spoke to the boys parents who where very understanding and said his son was very silly for screaming like that.  However since the two incidents Ima has changed for the worse!!! :-(.  We have had to put her back on lead everywhere we go.  She will go for bicyles, prams, people.  We have started to re-train her by distracting her around people and obstacles with treats and it works for everything....except Children!!! We cannot distract her and the second she see's a child she is off barking and growling and straining on the lead to get to them.....  Please help as she is such a fantastic girl and wouldn't hurt anyone.... She adores our children at home and feel it is more the unpredictability of children while out, the screaming, waving of arms etc etc that worries her.

Any help here would be greatly appreciated... I want to do the right thing to, maybe my/our actions could be making he worse.  Thank you for reading this post

Hi Chip,

Bad luck. Your girl has had two very bad frights in short succession and is now reacting accordingly to anything that moves. Dogs can be fairly simplistic in their view of the world and Ima is now suspicious and alert to any factors that remind her of the bad frights she's had, any tiny trigger is sending her off into full red alert attack is the best form of defence mode. Some dogs would become outwardly fearful and try to escape, she's trying to protect herself by attacking. In either case the root cause is fear.

As you say she is a lovely girl but any badly frightened animal is capable of a dangerous attack if it feels sufficiently threatened, that is what animals and dogs do. Given that her fear is pretty generalised to include children I would not mess around but go for a vet referral to a well qualified, experienced behaviourist (APBC) and get them to work with you and Ima asap. Your intentions in terms of using distraction etc.. are good but you need to get this sorted properly and the sooner the better. You don't want to do anything to make her behaviour worse around children and you don't want her fear to become entrenched, so please get a referral asap. This way, and because she was a sound dog to start with, I am sure you will get her back to normal very quickly. My concern is that you get tips on here, try to apply them and get is slightly wrong and then make the problem worse.

Very best of luck. 

Thank you for the above, it has helped.  I was concidering obedience classes and a behaviourist for her, but i wondered if anyone knew any tips for now as she really needs exercise and i still have to take he out twice daily.  I am petrified even on the local field some child will come out of nowhere and make this worse.  I have her on-lead constantly now.  my OH is not so easy to convince, he is sure she wouldn't do anything and still takes her off lead.... any advise for him??  am i neurotic?

Chip,

I don't think your husband should let her off for now. He may be right and she may not do anything, but given all her reactions to children at the moment we cannot be sure and therefore should not take the risk. Imagine the fallout if she does react. Remember under the Dangerous Dogs Act a child or person need only be frightened by a dog, there does not have to be physical contact. Your husband, if he is to be responsible, must keep Ima on the lead.

An obedience class is a must for all dog owners but this will not help with Ima's current problem.You need a properly qualified and experienced behaviourist (see the APBC website for someone in your area.)

Ima does need exercise. A good walk on the lead will be fine. If groups of children bug her, then try to avoid places they congregate. If you see a child and you see the beginnings of a reaction turn around and walk away or cross the road. Try to anticipate and get her away before she reaches full arousal levels, at which point you will not be able to get through to her at all. Try not to give her the opportunity to practice her fear reactions/aggression. The more she does it the more likely she is to continue. In between play games in the house or garden with her. Hiding favourite toys around the house and garden and getting her to find them will get her to use her brain and wear her out more than even free running will.

I don't want to sound severe. I'm almost certain that with the right help your girl will eventually be as good as new, but, given the current anti dog climate, we cannot afford to be complacent; if a dog starts to show fearful or mildly aggressive behaviour towards children it would be foolish and irresponsible to simply hope the situation will resolve itself. Please look for a behaviourist today. Speak to your vet and get a referral. You should be able to find someone quite quickly and APBC people will also be reasonable in terms of charges.

thank you very much for your reply, lead and avoid children it will be.... I am glad o spoke to you (well type talk) as i was going to try the opposite and take her on lead around children and praise good behavior.... now i see how silly and problematic this could have been for Ima.  I didn't realise either the above about the Dangerous Dog Act that a child feeling merely threatened and frightened was enough to have action taken... Fingers crossed we resolve this.  Thank you so much

can i ask just one more question.... when Ima is off lead and chases something she shouldn't barking e.g Squirrel, bird, plastic bag....When she re-calls, which she always does straight away, do i reward her for recalling? would this not look to her like we where rewarding the bad behaviour??? Confused thanks

yes reward her recall but i would ask her to sit and be calm then treat her. this way she has to do something more than just come back and will associate this with good behaviour.
the 'leave it' command is really worth teaching her and has helped with my schnauzer no end. she is a little nervous about some people but dogs mainly so if i see her getting silly and running towards something i don't want then i will say the command in a firm but calm way and she will leave what ever it is alone.
good luck with sorting this out, schnauzers can be upset quite easily in my experience but they learn quickly so hopefully with the right training your be back on track.

Hi,

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with Bear's advice because if you can get her to be calm and controlled that is great. I generally reward the recall itself. She is effectively coming back to you in direct contradiction of something she wants to do-chase prey! For me that is worthy of reward and I would not want to put her off by placing further demands on her. Requiring a dog to sit every time they come back can put them off after a while. Nonethless, where I agree with Bear is ensuring that she doesn't sprint to you and get her treat and then set off again after her squirrel, which can also happen. If she likes games like tug or a ball why not immediately reward the recall- the minute she's at your feet reward and then immediately institute a fabulous game. This way she'll come to think playing with my owner is better than just about anything. You could also put her on a long line, just to give you that extra piece of mind.

I just skim read so don't know if I missed this, but is she still entire? Or have you had her spayed? If she is still entire could she be coming in to season? This can confuse any bitch, and the first one is always the worst as they don't know what is happening. She is also coming into the 2nd fear phase. Anything can (and sometimes does) upset and frighten them. The fact that she has had 2 bad experiences in such a short time certainly hasn't helped her, but can be overcome. As the others have said, I would ask the vet to recommend a good behaviourist, or if you know of anyone that has used one successfully ask them. A good one is worth their wieght in gold. A bad one can do far more harm.

> I was concidering obedience classes

Have a look at local classes.  You might find that a good training class will improve her basic responses and general manners around people and dogs. 

In one of your earlier posts you mentioned about her behaviour toward children and it sounded as if she was over stimulated by them?  Children can have this effect on dogs that have a high prey drive - they move quickly, make high pitched noises, and can be unpredictable.  It must be like watching a field of rabbits or a box of rats - can you imagine how hard it can be for a dog to squash it's natural instinct not to bark and chase!!

I know I exagerate but it's worth taking a look at where some of her behaviour is coming from.  If you can find a good trainer they may be able to help her but it will be useful for a behaviourist to understand what her early signals were and how her behaviour has now developed.  Good luck

When she was originally scared by the child she was indeed in season, just and didn't realise it at the time. Lindylou a bad behaviorist is what i am most worried about!!!

dogs a babe, thank you, this is what i feel, its more the unpredictability of children that gets her attention.... looking back it prob started when she was a puppy, she loved children and often ran after them in the park for petting etc.  Recall wasn't as good as it is now, we were all just learning.... But it was something that was very hard to break, she loved children (i have 4) so very much and was disobedient then to get to them.... I never worried she would harm children.  It has drastically taken a change for the worst....

Did you carry on with the training classes as suggested in your first post when she was barking and growling at other dogs and jumping at children?

Yes and it stopped, all aggressive (barking which Schnauzers do well) behaviour diminished until a couple of weeks ago :-(

Chip,

I do understand your reservations about behaviourists, but do speak to your vet and have a look at this link:  www.apbc.org.uk  click on regions.

Agreed wholeheartedly, behaviorist is a definite!  I love my dog and hang the price i need her back on track..... I have already been on the link and will ring my vets tomorrow!  Thanks

sounds like it might be second fear imprint period?

If thats the case and i have read up on this subject, the introducing her to her fear and rewarding positive behaviour is important!  Is avoiding the park effectively making things worse?  She is now on-lead all the time,  hit and miss if we see a child.  A quite child is fine, its little children running and making noise she dislikes. I am not sure its a dislike to the child, maybe just a dislike because she has been scared out of her wits lol. 

Hi, i contacted my vets today for a referral to an experienced behaviourist (APBC) and they dont have one that works with the practice, they just have cards from people on the board who claim to be behavioural experts!!! Ok confused and not happy once more....... So what would be my next step, i do not wish to get the wrong advice and make Ima worse.  The vets did however have the name of a girl who used to work there who is "Fantastic with dogs"  she is not registered though.  So any advise would be helpful on what course of action to take. 

Hi Chip,

Have you looked at the APBC website under regions to see who is in your area? I would suggest you do that and try contacting whoever is nearest to you and see how you get on.

Obviously you don't want to avoid the park for ever more, my advice is to avoid it for now, until you get a good behaviourist onside who can guide you through a programme to get Ima back on track and back in the park in a way you can all enjoy it.

What you don't want is to expose her to a situation she will react to, giving her more opportunities to practice undesirable behaviors. I cannot say for sure, because I have not assessed your dog or the context of her behaviour in detail or in situ, but it is possible that any programme will involve gradual exposure to children with treats and so on. You may think "I could have done all this myself", it is just that when attempting desensitisation techniques if we get something slightly wrong, or the timing wrong, we can make everything worse. It will also give you someone to turn to if unexpected things crop up.

I do not wish to appear unhelpful but I do feel very strongly that in cases like this it is unethical to give detailed advice on a forum. Any programme must be determined after a proper assessment in situ.

I agree, i'd be too scared to tackle it myself in case i made her situation worse.  Just took her out though for a very long lead walk.  Bad timing on my part, schools where out and i have 3 schools just around the corner from my house, infants, junior and high school.  Place was crawling with screaming kids............... It didnt phase her in the slightest....?  She just watched with interest...?  I did have her fav high based treats (liver pate sandwiches) in place already just in case.  She even sat with me for a while and watched some children playing Hockey...?.  I avoided the park........therefore i feel her behaviour linked to the park.  Anyhow i will still be seeking help and avoiding the park until she improves.  Thanks once again