Hi all, have looked through most threads regarding temperature and all seem to refer to the drop to 36. sometime just before whelping - how accurate is this, only  my bitich is today on Day 59 with her first litter and her temp over the last two days has been around 36.5, it was 37.1 three days ago, so this is not a significant drop I would assume only much reference is given to the drop below 37 at which she is, I am guessing her usual temperature is 36.5 to 37 and i have just not yet seen "the drop", your input most gratefully received, she may hit me with a significant drop yet but wanted to query the benchmark for bitches temperature, note in the Book of The bitch it does state that during the last week the temp is usally a little low?

Hi, on day 58 my girls temp was 38.35, day 59 (took temp 3 times) it was 37.57,  37.74,  37.76, day 60 it was 37.47,  37.36,  37.96.  Then she starting tearing up her bed & had the pups early on day 61. I also used 2 thermometers to double check readings! She was a maiden bitch & only gave two visible pushes to get the first puppy out.
Good Luck!

Hey! Hopefully you will have good news this time. Look forward to hearing about your new litter.

FWIW we once had a bitch who had a significant temperature drop 10 days before she had her pups. She had no problems but it was quite an anxious wait!

All the best.

HI Misty, thanks for update, a different bitch this time aftr the nightmare of last christmas, the older bitch who was spayed after her section is doing absolutely fine, that litter was obviously not meant to be.  This time it is more real and so far all has gone well, bitch curled up next to me, as big as a bus and leaving nice little blobs of mucus around the place!!! Oh the joys of whelping.  Temp just now is 37.2 so gonna have to wait and see if the temp theory is accurate, will keep you all posted.

Take care

It is accurate you just have to do it  right. 100% perfect every time

> Temp just now is 37.2 so gonna have to wait and see if the temp theory is accurate,

If you use the same thermometer and try to do it at the same time(s) each day, you should notice a drop. But that doesn't necessarily mean whelping is immediately imminent. It just serves to keep you on your guard.

Good luck, things should be happening soon.

A rule of thumb is that labour should start no later than 12-24 hours after the " real" drop. 

Some of my girls have never shown any signs of labour whatsoever but because I have taken the temp I know pups are on their way.

It happens is all mammals.

> A rule of thumb is that labour should start no later than 12-24 hours after the " real" drop.
>

Trouble is not all bitches know that rule ;-) I phoned our vet after one of ours experienced a "significant drop". As she had the best part of two weeks to go I was worried. But the vet reassured me that some bitches can show a significantly low temperature for two weeks and still go on to full term. Happily that's the way it worked out for us; she hung on to 61 days.  So I take temps now and duly note them in our whelping records. But I don't take a significant drop as gospel any more.

Sorry to disagree . The real significant drop would not be seen so low weeks before whelping.  When I use the term significant I don't mean the normal fluctuating temp you experience leading up to whelping.  There is a reason for the significant and prolongred drop unique to whelping.   I hear people dismissing it but it has been bang on for me but I completely know what I am looking for now. Nature makes it happen.    

Thanks for all the responses, just shows there is a wealth of knowledge on this site, that is why I am such a fan. Well I am resigned to the fact that my bitches usual temperature is between 36 and 37 degrees as over the past five days it has stayed within these, so looking for a drop to below 36 possibly, at it's lowest we had a 36.2 at 0600 this morning, the lowest yet and this lunch it was 36.5 and just now it was 37.2 so it could have been that the drop was last night (whilst I tried to sleep inbetween letting our for a toilet and trying to retake back the part of the sofa I had secured as sleeping space.  Today is day 61 so can not be too long now (I hope,) keep you posted.

Thanks Guys

I really don't think there are bitches that normally have temps as low as 36 to 37 -I've never seen anything lower than 38 normally. (I did work as a vet nurse so have taken a few temps. :) ) However I'd be very interested to hear if anyone else has known a bitch with such a low temp normally. There is one site that claims that the bitch's temp is lower in the last trimester of her pregnancy anyway so maybe this is it?
http://www.debbiejensen.com/temp_chart.html
Oh and if you happen to take the temp when there is poo in there it will make it lower. :)

It could be the thermonmeter perhaps, one of those electrical instant reading, i.e within about 30 seconds!  Her temp last two readings was over 37.4,, perhaps if what you say any deposits present may have caused a lower reading, will keep you posted if I see a significant drop

General the " pregnancy temp" is that bit lower the whole 63 days,  between the 100-101  ( old money :-D) 37.8-38.3

The " real" drop goes away down to around 98 ( below 37) although I have had it a tad lower or just a faction above for the " prolonged drop"  which generally is about 12 hours.

So many people dismiss it but it is a fact mammals do have the prolonged temperature drop when about to whelp. humans have it too :-D 

Funny I won't count the bitches I have taken temps on our a few of my freinds, BUT we all get it spot on.  

A clever lady that frequents the board told me how to do it OH back in 2003 and it have been 100% fool proof every time.

It isn't the dogs who change the goal posts it is us humans that just can help complicate things :-)

If recorded properly every 8 hours on the dot over 7 days before the due date it will show that drop.

Trouble is not all bitches know that rule  I phoned our vet after one of ours experienced a "significant drop". As she had the best part of two weeks to go I was worried.

Why would you start taking a temperature 2 weeks before due date?

I suspect your vet means that they have a lower temperature anyway during pregnancy but you would definately not get a prolonged drop 2 weeks before unless there was something wrong.

If used carefully and properly it can be a very useful tool to alert us of trouble.  

Thanks for the update Blue, very useful.  Temp this morning at 37.2 which is about on par with last night so I am thinking that the drop not yet occurred.  WIll keep you posted.

Thanks once again

taggabags, it's 'normal' to find a slight rise each evening towards the end, but the drop will be noticable from the normal pattern if you write it down. :)

Good point WC  I forgot to mention that.  Most of mine sit around the 100 in the morning and around 100.6-100.8 in the evening check. :-)

i 100% agree with writing it down. I do three columns so it hits you in the face the steady drop.

> Why would you start taking a temperature 2 weeks before due date?

Because she lost her mucus plug.

> I suspect your vet means that they have a lower temperature anyway during pregnancy

No, he really didn't think that, he was fully briefed by me, I was worried I must admit but he reassured me that it was nothing he hadn't seen before (he's nearly as old as me poor chap and also he breeds the occasional litter himself). As I said, it turned out OK.

> If used carefully and properly it can be a very useful tool to alert us of trouble

I would never treat any of my bitches anything other than carefully and properly and I do know how to take a temperature. I merely wish to point out that issues like this are not always cut and dried.

Just to give you all a giggle, my notebook with all my temperature recordings was "eaten" not litterally but shreded by the sire last night, guess he not impressed with the pending arrival of his brood!

If your bitch had the prolonged drop 2 weeks before whelping IE 12 hours continually low I would be very concerned.  I would say your vet would be wrong to say "a prolonged significant drop or very low temp drop is normal" it is certainly anything but normal. Fluctuating temperatures can be normal but not the prolonged drop which I think you misunderstood.  The temp drop is the body reaction to a message from the puppies, basically saying " we are ready".

The reason I picked your post was after you I believe misunderstood my post and in a way dismissed it where I have the recorded facts over several litters with several different bitches,

  When I said  A rule of thumb is that labour should start no later than 12-24 hours after the " real" drop.
You said Trouble is not all bitches know that rule ;-) I phoned our vet after one of ours experienced a "significant drop"

The real drop is not only a significant drop but a significant AND prolonged drop.  Which don't happen any other time.

I would never treat any of my bitches anything other than carefully and properly and I do know how to take a temperature. I merely wish to point out that issues like this are not always cut and dried.

Nobody suggested you didn't treat your bitches carefully or properly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  best to keep with the actuals and not get too over sensitive.  I am trying to help the OP with natures given tool. 

Vets are qualified in many things but tend to be very weak at whelping experience which is why they do trust experienced breeders points of view and experience.

  Taken temperature is easy most can do it,    it is understanding and being able to find the  real drop/downwardly trend that makes it different.  If it was that simple we would not see so many people ask questions on it.

LOL need to stick it on a spread sheet next time.. :-D

Hi all

I have always taken temperatures with my girls and the information has always been useful when looking at the whole situation.  As we all know, our girls do vary in many respects and some will have a temp. drop without signs of imminent labour, others will have other signs too.  For me, temperature taking is a tool that is part of a process of monitoring pregnant bitches.

My thoughts are as follows (sorry for the length!)

I find that the average temperature i.e. the total number of temperature readings divided by the number of times taken will be a little lower in a pregnant bitch than a none pregnant bitch during the last 10 or so days of pregnancy.

Disregarding what a girl's average temperature is, there is always a little fluctuation on a day to day basis (as there is with us) and morning temps. will generally be a little lower than evening temps and that's why I think a girls average temp. is the most reliable indicator when looking for a genuine drop as it levels out all the little fluctuations.  

As the temp. fluctuates constantly throughout the day, taking the temp. three times per day may not be 100%  informative as you may or may not "catch" the drop.  However it's still a very reliable indicator.  For labour to commence the drop needs to be 1 degree lower (sometimes it's more)  than the bitches own average temperature and the drop needs to happen and stay down long enough to be counted as a sign of impending labour.  Therefore it's of little value (in my opinion) to say that labour will start once a bitches temp. drops to 99F (37.2C) if the bitches average temp. has always been 99.8F (37.6C).  Likewise many of my girls average temps. are 100.8F (38.2C) so I can expect the drop to be to 99.8F  (37.6C) or sometimes lower (they do vary a bit!).

For example if you take temps. three times per day and you note a drop at the morning one, you can expect the lunchtime one to be low also, occasionally the evening one will be low too.  If however the drop in the morning is not maintained at the next reading it's likely to have been a "blip".  Once labour is imminent you will find the temp. drop stays down long enough for labour to be established and once established you will find the temp. slowly rises.

The mechanical trigger of labour in bitches is caused by the decline in hormone produced by the corpus luteum which produces progesterone to maintain pregnancy.  When the corpus luteum reaches the end of its life (it breaks down) and it ceases to produce progesterone.

Progesterone declines relatively slowly during the last 10 days or so of pregnancy. Bitches do vary in terms of how quickly their progesterone declines but the loss of progesterone is a gradual process with some variation between different girls.  Some will drop steeply then level off (these are the ones that seem to have the "false" temp. drop) before gradually lowering their progesterone levels, others will lower their progesterone steadily with no major drop in progesterone (sort of disappearing slowly and steadily) and they tend only to drop their body temp. as labour is genuinely approaching.

The temperature drop seen is associated with the drop in progesterone and this is why false drops can be common (false meaning the temp. drops but doesn't stay down long enough before rising to indicate labour is imminent).  These "false" drops are associated with a sudden decline in progesterone but not necessarily a steep decline in progesterone associated with impending labour.

If I have a "false" drop with any of my girls it will usually be 5 or so days before another temp. drop and labour actually commencing.  24 hrs before labour does start in earnest there will be another drop in temp. and this will stay down.  The reason there is a "false" temp. drop is that progesterone has fallen away sharply and the body hasn't adjusted to the drop.  As the body adjusts the body temp. will stabilise again until the next decrease in progesterone where the body temp. will drop again and this usually corresponds to obvious (other signs) of impending labour.

I plot the temperature readings on graph paper and join up the dots, this way I can see the "pattern".

I've taken temps. with all my girls and for us obvious labour starts 18 hrs after a genuine temp. drop.  When I say obvious I mean I've got no doubts a girl is in labour and the labour proceeds to delivery.  I've had two cases of inertia; both girls had a good temp. drop (from their average) and the temp. stayed down for 24 hrs without rising.  Some other signs of labour were seen briefly but then the girls perked up and returned to "normal" without getting to the more intense stage of labour and certainly before the pushing stage.  If I'd not been taking their temps. I doubt I'd have suspected inertia as many bitches can have "labour" like behaviour in the build up to a normal and uncomplicated labour/delivery.  Both of these girls had transverse pups for the their first pups and as neither got past the cervix opening stage due to the position of the pups the labour didn't progress to delivery.  The temp. drop gave me the "heads up" to be on my guard.

I've personally moved over to an ear thermometer to check my girls temps.  So long as you use the same thermometer and the same ear (it's important to have clean ears - any build up of wax or debris will affect the reading in much the same way as faeces in the rectum can) I find the readings accurate.  They are slightly different to the reading (simultaneous) on a rectal thermometer but the drops amount to the same amount i.e. 1 - 2 degrees.

The draw back to taking rectal temps is that you do have to double check the tip of the thermometer is in contact with the wall of the rectum and not sitting in "empty" space within the back passage (not always easy with a wriggling bitch and no one to steady her whilst you take the temp.) and as the OP mentioned you do have to try and ensure there is no faeces in the back passage or the reading will not be as reliable.

Chris, a very well put summary of the whole process, fascinating to read the whys and hows of the temp drop, I am certain my bitch has a lowere than average normal temperature, consistantly in the 37.2 - 37.6 range today, If and I hope I do, get a drop, it will be interesting to see to what degrees and when in relation to the labour.  Day 61 today, due on Thursday.

Regards,

Hi Taggabags

With regard to your girl I'm sure you are thinking along the right lines. 

My own "normal" temperature is always lower than the average for a human i.e. my temp at rest & when well is 97.6F not the usual 98.6F (37.0C).  I put this down to having hypothyroidism but it may just be me! So when I get an elevated temperature due to illness I feel the effects of a raised temp. when it's 99F if you know what I mean even though it's only just above normal for the average person. 

I can't see any reason why healthy pregnant dogs don't have some variation, the veterinary books tells us the normal temp. range for a dog is 100 to 102.5 degrees F. 37.7C - 39.1 (rectal) so that's quite a wide margin in a none pregnant and healthy adult.

This is why I feel a dogs own average temperature is a better guide to trying to establish if a bitch has experienced the expected minimum temp. drop of 1 degree prior to the commencement of labour.

BTW, it's always best to try and take the dogs temp. when she's been calm, quiet and restful.  Stimulation/exercise etc. can elevate the temp. a little and readings taken at such times are not always as precise when you are trying to gather data!

Good luck with your girl, not long to go now (by dates).

> I have the recorded facts over several litters with several different bitches

I'm sure you believe that you are right. But I think that it is not helpful to either the OP or other readers of this thread for you to be so dogmatic based on your limited experience.

To be honest your assertation:

> I would say your vet would be wrong to say "a prolonged significant drop or very low temp drop is normal"

comes across as arrogant. This particular vet has years of experience both as a vet and as a dog breeder himself.

As for:

> I am trying to help the OP with natures given tool

that is what we are all trying to do. No need to get het up about it!!!

>

I'm sure you believe that you are right. But I think that it is not helpful to either the OP or other readers of this thread for you to be so dogmatic based on your limited experience.
  Limited experience.  Hardly.   Mentors before me have 20-40 years experience of doing it and the link about has at least 20 years exactly as I said.    It is a very well know fact that this happens with mammals because you are not aware of it doesn't mean it isn't factual.

[comes across as arrogant./tt]  Not arrogant at all I just do not like people discrediting facts because their " limited experience"  has not given them the depth of knowledge or experience to ascertain these facts.  Not arrogant at all. Confident perhaps. Nothing wrong with that.  I wouldn't be offering the advise int he first place if I wasn't confident in my advise.

If you were trying to help the OP you would not have dismissed anyone's valuable advise JUST given oe added  you own.

No need to get het up about it!!!
  Why would I be "het" up. I am quite comfortable with my more than limited experience and I believe it is right :-) not just because of my experience but because of the generations of medical support.

There is a link above that has it exactly as I described. Someone with I think 20 years plus experiences.

I also have experience of the flip side that a bitches temp had dropped low and prolonged, 30 hours later with no pups I was pretty sure based on my understanding a section was on the horizon and it was.  It was vauable tool for this.  All puppies survived.

Sorry this is long too!  I need to explain myself as trying to be concise may result in misunderstanding. 

This is just my personal experience and views. I've noticed over the years that temperature readings can do all sorts of things!  Interpreting what you are seeing is the "interesting" part as any manner of scenarios can be seen!

Some go up and down like yo-yo's (i.e. the graph paper looks very "animated") before a noticeable drop which remains low enough for a sufficient time to be associated with impending labour.

Others are high and creep down bit by bit before there is a 1 degree or more drop and you believe the bitch to be in early labour even if the labour is sub clinical at that stage.  Others will have no obvious temp. drop and yet they appear to be in fairly advanced labour! And another category have quite high readings and then there's a big drop and you think "ah here we go" and then not much happens!  Retrospectively you then note that there was a further big drop before things commenced culminating in a bigger than average drop!

As I've already mentioned, all girls appear to be different on occasion - there is no hard and fast rule as such.  Some of my girls have the temp. drop and they are clearly in what appears to be advanced labour at the time of taking their temp. Others have the temp. drop but appear to be quite away off labour.  They are all different.

Temperature taking is giving us should we choose to use it, a potential crystal ball.  The knowledge is there, we choose if we wish to use it and indeed how to interpret it.  In bitches who are giving us mixed signals or bitches whose delivery dates are imprecise or indeed in bitches who we think should be labouring but aren't we potentially have some form of advance warning about their physiological state (labour/delivery wise) and can use the information to aid our decision making.  The temperature reading is but one part of a more complex process.

Having recorded all my girls late pregnancy temperatures and built a spread sheet I personally feel that at some stage ALL bitches do experience a significant (significant for them) reduction in body temperature prior to labour commencing (labour "symptoms").  This is borne out by experience and the knowledge that declining progesterone levels circulating in the blood stream does reduce basal body temperature.  The hormone progesterone  has a thermogenic effect on the basal body temp (meaning that increased levels of progesterone cause a rise in basal body temperature), ergo I feel that a reduction in progesterone levels can quite conceivably be associated with a drop in body temperature.

In cases where no obvious temperature drop has been recorded it is potentially a case of the drop has been missed either because it has occurred in the long gap between readings or it's been down for less time than expected before rising again.

In the majority of bitches one would expect the temp. to drop and stay down for a few hours before labour is triggered.  As all girls are different many will require a shorter period of time at a lower temperature before they appear to be in labour, others will require a longer period of time.  However, the process of labour has already been triggered at the stage the temp drops! 

Technically pregnancy ends at the cessation of progesterone production, i.e. a blood level of 0 ng progesterone per ml of blood. This will have occurred quietly and is not noticeable unless bloods are tested.  When I've taken bloods and temps. simultaneously the initial temp. drop seems to occur when the bloods are approx. < 2.5 ng/ml. Within 12 hrs of so the levels have dropped further and only a trace of progesterone is evident.  Add another 12 hrs and you've got no progesterone which is a rough equivalent of the "within 24 hrs of the temp. drop labour should be underway" assertion.

When pregnancy ends (as determined by progesterone levels) a normal and healthy bitch will progress towards obvious labour/delivery.  Bitches that do not progress are bitches that need watching for problems.  Some bitches are very good at hiding labour and will appear happy/normal and then present you with a surprise puppy!  Clearly nothing untoward happening with them, others that don't follow the prescribed pattern of labour unfortunately may have issues and this is where noting down temperatures can be helpful.

The other thing that I've noted is that there is can be a wide variation between the time taken for labour to commence (visually not hormonally) and the actual temperature drop.  The average here is 18 hrs but I have had genuine (only know they are genuine retrospectively) temp. drops and the first hint of labour hasn't started for 38 hrs.   The other issue is (when calculating temp. drop to labour/delivery) is the variation in when each of us decides the "clock is ticking".  Do we say temp. drop labour starting, or do we say temp. drop labour to follow in due course?  Do we confirm labour in our girls by nesting/food refusal/toilet trips/mucus plugs/subdued behaviour etc. etc. (many of these can be argued as pre-labour and many bitches do this many days before delivery i.e. during the last 10 days or so) or do we count labour as the first contractions/vomiting/water bag appearing/rupturing or indeed the first straining?  Given this wide margin of interpretation it's not hard to see why there can be a huge gap between a temp. drop and labour/delivery.

Certainly a good many books on the subject appear to say that delivery should be in progress within 24 - 36 hrs of a genuine temperature drop.  However as with most things advice is based on the norm and the average.  There will always be exceptions to the rule.

For me, just my personal opinion, temperature records are helpful and I wouldn't personally alter what I do as they have proved invaluable to me when interpreted correctly and when all factors are considered.  As a stand alone item I would venture that sometimes they can be more of a hindrance than a help as all knowledge has to be used appropriately and I feel the whole picture is important.

Blue you are very wrong when you say 100% as nothing is 100%! I believe you need to get your facts right before posting misleading information on here. While it may be 100% for your dogs, all dogs are different. I use to believe it was very accurate but this method did not work on 2 of my girls and sometimes would work on one of my girls one time but the next time it wouldn't. I spoke to my vet about this and he said it can be reliable with some bitches and not so reliable with others. As for the tempeture drop in humans I think your on some heavy drugs there woman! I'm a midwife and I'm sorry but that does not happen in humans. Humans and dogs are very different. Same thing goes for cats, their temp does not drop before they go into labour either. While most dogs will there are others that don't. I use to breed ragdolls and boxer years ago for 6 years, once I became a registered midwife I stopped breeding cats and cut down the amount of bitches I have but I still breed my boxers and have been for almost 24 years now.

Hi all. Sorry if I am going about posting wrongly, this is my first time on here.
I have a pregnant small hound bitch. I have been measuring her temperature since the 56th day, and her average is anywhere between 100.8 and 99.5 but usually staying around 100.2. On the morning of day 63 (yesterday) her temp dropped to 98.5. I thought this was "significant drop", but it didn't stay down, as when I measured it 7 hours later it had returned to normal- 100.2. This morning (day 64) her temperature has dropped from the normal again to 98.7. My question is does the significant drop have to drop and stay down? Was my initial recorded drop just a 'blip'? I must say, I am rather sceptical to the temperature theorem, as during her last pregnancy I again measured her temperature religiously, and saw no drop before she went into labour at night.

I apologise that this next point is little related to temperature, but im wondering how far I should let her go over the due date before I see something is wrong/ need to request a c section? I would look to how long she went last time as guidance, but last time she had 3 matings, so it was difficult to tell. Is it possible for her to have ovulated later than the mating date and thus conceived later?

Thank you in advance for any advice

Hattie please can you start a new topic thread - this thread is ancient so not sure why someone has resurrected it! If you start a new thread, I'm sure you'll get lots of advice (but please don't mention your breed, thanks)