I have to rant.

Found out today that a lady I gave loads of details of where to get a GOOD QUALITY pup to, including CD and the breed clubs in her area, has gone and bought one from what I suspect is a dodgy breeder. Why oh why dont people listen?!! Its a case of heart overruling head sometimes, or the "I want a dog and I want one NOW" mentality. It just really annoys me when she could have had a decent, healthy pup!!!

Grr

Its all too common now aint it :-(

I think it is the its just a dog mentality and have no idea of what a healthy dog means opposed to a non pedigreen or non tested one :-(

We read up and researched staffords before we got our first but we still had surprises in store for what dog ownershiop actully is!
I think there should be a law to prevent people buying dogs on a whim and not training them as puppies but how on earth would u police it?!

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Alice i feel the same way as you.
A number of people i work with have asked for help and i have put them in touch with the right people only for them to contact a person selling pups through the Friday Ad. Not health tested, one with a KC reg cert and the other not reg and confirmed from a puppy farm in Wales.
They were both of the mentality of 'want one NOW'.

Its a sad was to think and in a way i hope they have issues with their pups, but then again i don't wish for any dog to have any problems.. Oh i don't know, really don't.
Still believe there should be a huge follow up programme (not from JH) about what is a decent breeder, where to get a pup and what you should be looking for and should be seeing and that there is generally a wait for get a decent pup.

Unfortunatley the power of a cute puppy no matter where it is bred overpowers all reason, even when some peoples instincts are screaming I should leave this place they still buy the pup as it is cute and needs them.

I've learnt to be pushy and go with people physically, otherwise you are talking to the wall. :-)

Maybe we should have an owner registration system. To get onto an owners register perhaps people should attend some compulsary dog ownership classes covering responsibilities, care, welfare and health issues? If the people had to be licensed before they could buy a puppy, and if dog breeders could not sell to people who do not have a valid registration we might see a lot less potential issues coming up so regularly.

We have to have a license to drive a car or ride a motor bike or even watch TV, so maybe an owners license would work.

> We have to have a license to drive a car or ride a motor bike or even watch TV, so maybe an owners license would work.

I've thought this for many years !

Same happened here , lovely long email from them , i emailed back  listed all health tests for dam/sire what scores etc should be  probably ranted on a bit as i do in a nice way , gave my numbers and asked her to give me a call to have a chat about the breed , lo and behold got an email 3 days later , she had her puppy and told me where from !! (need i say more)

Two separate incidents this year that I know of where people (not friends I hasten to add) that I know of, and who should know better have bought underage puppies in a pub from gipsies. One bought a pair of indeterminate breed terriers, and one a 5 week staffy (?) pup. We shall see. I will see the staffy pup, because that one is someone I meet out walking most mornings. IDIOTS.

Another person, who is someone I worked with, and is what I would call a friend, and who definitely knows better, bought a dachshund puppy from a pet shop.

I went absolutely ballistic at her. I felt a bit sorry afterwards, then came to my senses and thought, no she d*mn well deserved that.

Friends of mine decided they wanted a miniture schnauzer puppy. Asked my advice about where to look for one so, like AliceC told them about CD, the KC web site and breed club information.

They decided to look at a litter advertised on the internet, when they got to the house and went inside they were shown into a room where a litter of staffs were. Obviously confused they said this wasn't the breed they had come to see. The owner just scooped up the pups and returned with a very thin schnauzer bitch and her litter!!

Luckily they were so shocked, and remembering what I had said about puppy farmers/byb, that they walked away. Eventually they located a breeder, through the breed club, who grilled the husband for an hour before she would let them visit. They were eventually allowed one of her precious babies and he has been a wonderful pet from day one.

I am so pleased that they had the strength to leave the first pups they saw, as I know many people wouldn't have been able to!

Friends of ours have a nearly two year old Boxer who they have had since a pup, well it's just seen a specialist for numerous health problems, only aloud restricted exercise, very sad, know the bloke who had the litter....put his bitch to his local pub owners dog!! :(

Its been the same for years and yes it is annoying...a friend years ago wanted to buy a GSD for her boyfriend for Xmas so asked me to help her out, called many people and one pup stood out from the rest her breeder wasn't going to keep her due to her coat growing too long for showing but was walking out on a lead and sounded idea for these first time dog owners...but sadly as the dog would not be ready for Christmas!, I was talking to the breeder in November they went to this other woman who sold them a pup on boxing day and she didn't even get to see the mother of this pup..sadly the pup had very bad temperament issues and was really hard work for the two green owners in raising her. The woman they brought her off was a horrible woman.  I have been hurt by people making out they soo badly want a dog- in the end, they have turned around and been uncaring selfish dog owners. I've given up helping in my mind if anyone wants a dog now to go and do your own research and talk to people.

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When a person who buys a mongrel puppy from a pub they know exactly what there getting.
What makes me more cross is with so called breeders breeding pedigree dogs or designer crosses and selling them for hundreds of pounds- surely the people who buy these pups are far more of an idiot in my mind? Yes I agree with you on the person who brought a pup from a pet shop that should be banned outright.

i personally find nearly all of my dog clients will go and buy a pup from a puppy outlet or byb on purpose, knowing full well were theve come from, we have five large kennels in our area, all have a pet shop licence. instant dog,no questions asked, usually cheaper and dont have to wait. same usual answer ' the pup is healthy', he will be alright, you get puppy pack with these, or its only for the kids! 
it seems to me a bit like going to asda and buying an intensively reared chicken, customers know exactly how its farmed but they will by it cos it looks good and tastes ok and is cheap. people do not care!!  i dont think you can educate all dog owners because they are just so greedy. i agree with another cd,er i dont like to advise anymore it seems a waste of time.

i hear you !!, A friend of my mums on her holiday caravan site did exact same , she already has a male Shih-Tzu which she says is kc reg and has good pedigree so i was completly knocked for six when i heard she'd gone to A puppy farm to get a female one, with the intention of breeding her pair,
this just did not make any sense to me at all and i was so mad when i visited my mum and see the women i didnt want to offened her or pee off my mum by having a go about it, so i just went down the beach with my dogs till she left ,
then my mum starts telling me how the puppy has been really ill and so on and so on, i realy couldnt stand to listen to any more, why oh why are some people so stupid sometimes :-(

I agree with you all. When we bought we were amatures I researched my dog went on KC web site tracked a breeder, visited about three times and I really happy with mine. OH we went even further and were interviewed before the dog bred to see if we were suitable. These dogs are with us 24/7 for, life, it would be heart breaking if they had something I could have avoided. I would not dream of buying from less that excellent stock - yes things can still go wrong but I would have known we did all we could to ensure a healthy pup.

But, you will never get away from impulse buying, the kids see a pup and thats the one!!

I dont know about others but we only visited two breeders one for Whistler & one for Jake. Once we knew the breed the research was done on the breeder, and by them on us!

But there's knowt as queer as folk!

The "I want it now" attitude seems to be in fashion.

A friend asked me to see a dog with her on Monday as she decided she wanted another dog, just like that. The dog we saw wasn't suitable.  I thought they were going to do a bit of research and then save up for something decent.  All the cute pup pics in the ads on-line really got them going...

The friend arrived on my doorstep yesterday asking to borrow a crate as they had just picked up a puppy 8 weeks old.  Couple of hundred pounds later they owned a dog. Very easy, very worrying, I wasn't convinced it was healthy and it had very dirty ears. Pup is not registered or health checked and from a rather dubious home. I said go to the vets asap for a health check.

I was also alarmed at the amount of dogs offered for stud on various ad pages on line, even saying other breeds accepted. Its a huge market, showing no signs of subsiding.

I always think that people that dont listen when I talk about the benefits of getting a pure bred dog, from health tested parents, from reputable breeders, that what they get is what they pay for.  I know a lady that is constantly asking for advice on dogs.  I talk to her, answer her questions, etc.  She has a dog that she is "getting rid of" because it goes to the washroom inside the house.  I tried to tell her tips on how to housebreak the dog, but she didnt listen.  Then she went out and spent $20 (yes twenty) on a puppy, that was only a few weeks old.  The pup was sick, and she complained and complained about how much it was gonna cost her at the vet.  Well, I am sorry, you bought a pup for a very very small sum, from people that admittedly didnt know what they were doing, and sold it to someone who didnt know what they were doing, and you wonder why the dog is riddled with health issues?  Get what you pay for.

I mean, I still help people when they ask, but its those kinds of people I want to bang my head against the wall about! 

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I very VERY much doubt this is true,though it depends on WHO suspects the dog to be a pitbull, pitbull x or pitbull type... if the police suspect the dog to be you... your options ACTUALLY are... surrender the dog to be put down, or fight and hope that you can plead that the dog is not in any way dangerous, so that when it IS found to be 'pitbull type' you then get your dog back, IF you fulfill the criteria necessary (over 16, dog neutered, tattooed, insured, kept on a lead and muzzled in a public place, and not allowed out without a responsible adult, and not to be given away or sold).

If your dog is found to be of type and dangerous - it is destroyed.

Plenty of dogs have not been dangerous to start with - but unfortunately the length of time in kennels denied exercise or social interaction and kept in kennel conditions that dont even meet legal requirements! (ie, dogs can get nose to nose with oneanother and fight through the bars!, no secure exercise facility so no exercise given), has seriously damaged the mental health of a number of dogs, several of whom were then destroyed.

I cant for a second think that what you say can be true, and spreading misinformation like that IS responsible in a lot of cases for people owning these dogs with no idea that their lovely family pet could be taken from them, and could die!

Thank you everyone for your replies!

Have found out now the pup definitely did come from the suspected breeder I'm so angry, why couldn't she have just waited?!

You are right that dog breeding is a huge market these days, lots and lots of money involved. It's really sad for the poor dogs and bitches that are constantly bred from, and the poor (if not stupid) people who buy pups without researching.

>> Two separate incidents this year that I know of where people (not friends I hasten to add) that I know of, and who should know better have bought underage puppies in a pub from gipsies. One bought a pair of indeterminate breed terriers, and one a 5 week staffy (?) pup. We shall see. I will see the staffy pup, because that one is someone I meet out walking most mornings. IDIOTS.>

I can not see why you can call these people idiots was it due to the age of these pups?

Really didn't think this needed that much explanation. The pups were underage, from a highly disreputable source, bought on a whim, the two terrier types sold as a pair to complete novice dog owners, who now have big issues with aggression (towards the owner) have yet to see if the staff is actually a staff ............ need I say more???

I see this alot....instant puppy buying:( no research, no background, some dont even care what breed it is..makes me mad. Just along as its a puppy!!! I saw 2 new pups today..who were not only bought on impulse but the owners, said quite happily ''we got girls so we can breed them'' .

> I cant for a second think that what you say can be true, and spreading misinformation like that IS responsible in a lot of cases for people owning these dogs with no idea that their lovely family pet could be taken from them, and could die!

Sorry I am unable to follow some of your grammer , but your accusastion of spreading misinformation is offensive. I assure you I DO NOT tell lies. My mistake is my  INDECRETION  Posting on an open forum. I have asked for a moderator to remove my comment.

I have been off line due to problems with my computer to carry on our discussion...What rilled me in the first comment was that some people had brought a puppy or pups from gypsies at a pub so that automatically makes them idiots! I really do think that yes their dogs can and mostly are mongrels but are they as you call them "highly disreputable source" I would if I had a choice I would rather been born from a gypsy dog than from some poor bitch locked in a massive shed with another 100 dogs that are kept in cages?

The gypsy dog would of had a home family and name yes no papers of course but would of had a normal life compared to some. Its the mass money makers that are basically farming dogs that I can not stand. They are the people who should be stamped out. The general public see the latest doggy film or advert and think we'll get one of them not realising that the poor pups are unhealthy sickly dogs with temperament problems.

Anyone who acquires a dog be it a pedigree or some cur from anywhere can make it right in my mind, by reading magazines or going to dog training classes to raise them properly, its just laziness that stops them bothering to put the time and energy in to a young dog that is needed. That's why it all goes wrong and the dog ends up being kicked out.

A very quick note to add that I can speak from personal experience on this - I consider myself quite an intelligent person, I wanted a dog all my life and my first opportunity came when I was 36.  I researched and researched, had the dogs day to day life all planned out, knew exactly what breed I wanted.  The breed (Patterdale) is not recognised by KC in UK, so the vet, KC and other advisory services could not help us - it was the internet or nothing, as far as I could tell at the time.

I travelled 200 miles to see the only suitable puppy, knowing full well I would not leave without it.  It was a BYB, or at least an amateur one - not a puppy farm or anything, but certainly created for the purpose of making a few quid.

I adore my dog, she is beautiful and has no significant physical health issues.  She is, however, of a very nervous temperament and came to us at the tender age of 6 weeks, with a healthy coat but with ear mites.  She was born outside, had never been inside a house - she is now somewhat aggressive.  Looking back, I would have done things a lot differently!

> I would have done things a lot differently!

And that is the whole issue the new owners and certainly the poor wee mites deserve so much better.

Fair comment Susie72, I got my first dog from a person at the pub picked her up the next day- not knowing her real age she must of been about 2 years old she was a fabulous dog after being trained that is... after she past away, I thought I would do it properly so I researched and researched for the right breed went through the KC and paid over £500 for my dog from a top breeder 10 years ago now- the pup was 6 weeks old, he has several health issues that developed at around 2 yrs, and became highly aggressive with male dogs when he got to 4 yrs old so it can happen to anyone who gets any dog. Maybe its just terriers they are not for the faint hearted that's for sure. The main thing I would look into and ask questions on now with hindsight is the mother of the pups if she is sound temperament then the pups should be.  

> became highly aggressive with male dogs when he got to 4 yrs old

To be fair there are breeds that will hardly ever be good with their own sex, and with the history of yours as a fighting breed it is almost to be expected, and only good management and training will curb the behaviour, but the inclination will be there.

Collies herd, gundogs retrieve, Terriers like to dig and will kill small furries, sight hounds will chase things that move etc etc.

Knowing the natural traits means we can adapt or control these innate characteristics through training and management.

Part of research is finding a breed with characteristics that will fit your lifestyle and expectations, some breed traits may be unacceptable to some.

Also remember that a nice natured bitch is only part of the pups lineage, so getting to know the sire and or meeting some of his other offspring will be helpful.

Occasionally traits from a distant ancestor come through unexpectedly, which is often the case with negative traits despite the breeders best efforts.

> What rilled me in the first comment was that some people had brought a puppy or pups from gypsies at a pub so that automatically makes them idiots! I really do think that yes their dogs can and mostly are mongrels but are they as you call them "highly disreputable source"

I wasn't making a comparison against buying from a puppy farmer, so I don't know why you are so het up about that. Yes, buying from this situation does automatically make them idiots in my book, along with people who buy from pet shops and puppy farmers!

> I would if I had a choice I would rather been born from a gypsy dog

Perhaps you have had better experience in your area as to how gypsies treat their dogs. I can assure you that every experience I have ever had is a bad one. They are often physically abusive to their animals and will turn them out injured without treatment without a second thought.

> The gypsy dog would of had a home family and name yes no papers of course but would of had a normal life compared to some

Dream on.

By the way, do you not think that breeding puppies to sell severely underage in pubs FOR CASH is not puppy farming?

I hold my view - they are idiots. The good homely gypsies will be peddling the next lot of underage pups, bred from the same 'well looked after' bitch, with anything they can lay their hands on as quickly as possible.

The other side of the coin:  About 25 years ago I wanted a small breed puppy but couldn't make up my mind exactly what I wanted.  I knew all about the KC, breeders and puppy farms but, against my better judgement, as I just happened to be driving past a puppy farm one day, I decided to stop and have a look at the various breeds available.  Yes, you've guessed, I bought one.  I knew it was morally wrong but he was so cute it was love at first sight.  I was fortunate - the dog had no health problems whatsoever and lived to the age of 17 years.  Since then I have had 4 others of the same breed - but ALL bought from very reputable and well-known breeders.  All I'm saying is that it's so easy to be tempted by a cute puppy.  I was lucky, many are not.  I do feel very strongly that puppy farms should be banned, as should selling dogs in petshops and never again would I allow myself to buy from either, I just had a weak moment that day 25 years ago.

We did just the same 30yrs ago,we went to our local place in the country that sold all types of dogs that people required...they did not breed the dogs...only sold them..so most lightly from puppy farms. After having our GR puppy for 2-3 days she became unwell and we went straight to the vet and yes she had parvo very bad,the vet told us it was 50% chance of survival over night.
Well bless her she made it and lived untill she was 13yrs old.
But i learnt my lesson never to go anywhere like that again.....we live and learn sometimes the hard way.

> I just had a weak moment that day 25 years ago.

and sadly that is what these exploiters count on, and every puppy bought condemns the mother to  producing yet more pups until she no longer can through exhaustion

ask questions on now with hindsight is the mother of the pups if she is sound temperament then the pups should be.

And father too :-) a pup from my first litter came for a visit this weekend and now he is mature his temperament is so like his dad it is untrue. He has never had any direct contact with his dad but his reactions to other dogs even down to the speed he wagged his tail LOL were exactly the same. If he wasn't a completely different colour to his dad we may have mixed them up :-). I would now never buy a pup without meeting their sire as well as dam and assessing their temperament.

Yes the Dads personality is there too...my 2 siblings are very different in personality, my bitch Tinki is the colour of her Dad-black but the brain of her mother an out and out terrier. Starsks on the other hand has the brindle of his mother and the brain of a Labrador! She's Miss fiesty- where he is Mr lover!

Perhaps you have had better experience in your area as to how gypsies treat their dogs. I can assure you that every experience I have ever had is a bad one. They are often physically abusive to their animals and will turn them out injured without treatment without a second thought.

I would just like to point out that I find this comment completely out of order and prejudice.

My husband is a romany and I can assure you that not all gypsies / travellers treat their dogs how you describe above. I am actually horrified that this comment has not been removed as in my view you are being racist.

Yes I agree that puppies should not be sold in pubs or be sold underage but to me it seems that you are saying that they do this because they are gypsies and you are insinuating that ALL gypsies are cruel to their dogs which in completely untrue.

Would you be prejudice against black people or Asian people. No probably not, so why should you be able to say things like that about gypsies?

I completely agree with your point that whatever has gone on is wrong and both the people who sold the pup/s are idiots and the people who bought the pup/s are also idiots but your comment above about them being gypsies is like saying that everyone in Wales or Ireland who breeds dogs is a puppy farmer. Just because there are many puppy farms in Wales and Ireland doesn't mean that all people who breed dogs in those countries are puppy farmers! Don't tar everyone with the same brush - It's highly offensive.

Quite right, that was a racist remark.

That depends whether you believe that 'gypsy' describes a race or a way of life.

"Gypsy" does describe a race of people, not a way of life.

I am not a gypsy and if I lived in a caravan I would not be classed as a gypsy. My husband is a romany gypsy and we live in a house, he is still classed as a gypsy.

See definitions #3 and #4

Oooh, what a can of worms I've opened up here!! :-)

Back to the original subject it appears Lucy's pup is doing well despite its upbringing...

I think a lot of my friends now are at the age where they are settling down but aren't quite ready to have children yet, so they decide on getting a dog. Luckily most of my good friends see me as "the doggy person" and will come to me and ask where to get a pup from - but one of my good friends (and one of our tenants) decided suddenly over the school hols to get a pup. Didn't tell me she was thinking of getting one and didn't ask permission! (We dont mind tenants having pets but it is nice to be asked!!!) Sadly she now has a pup from one of the worst puppy farmers out there, she thought it was brilliant as the puppy farmer conveniently met her half way, and dropped this poor tiny pup into her young son's arms - she couldn't really say no could she and ended up forking out RIDICULOUS money for a "Designer crossbred" as the puppy farmer called him!!

I'm going to have to tell her the pup's from a puppy farmer - but finding it hard to break this news to her as she's so pleased with him!!

> "Gypsy" does describe a race of people, not a way of life.
>I am not a gypsy and if I lived in a caravan I would not be classed as a gypsy.

Under the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 Gypsies are defined as "persons of nomadic habit of life, whatever their race or origin, but does not include members of an organised group of travelling showmen, or persons engaged in travelling circuses, travelling together as such.",[6] this definition includes such groups as New Age Travellers, as well as Irish Travellers and Romany.[7][8]

taken from here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gypsy (I know, it's Wiki!!)

See definitions #3 and #4

I can assure you that this is not the true term for the word gypsy! It may be the new "PC" definition! I can assure you that a "true gypsy" ie #1 & #2 would be highly offended if I moved myself into a caravan and called myself a gypsy.

Either way, they are still referring to the person living that life - Fair enough in points 3 and 4 it would not be classed as racism but is definately still prejudism against those people which is still wrong and uncalled for!

Rather than arguing over the term gypsy are you all telling me that you think that prejudism like mentioned above is ok because I certainly don't!!

Whatever the word gypsy refers to, all "gypsies" are not the same and people should not say that all "gypsies" are cruel to their pets.

That's like me saying that everyone that owns a Staffy must be a murderer because the man up the road owned one and he murdered his wife.

> Rather than arguing over the term gypsy are you all telling me that you think that prejudism like mentioned above is ok because I certainly don't!!

It was't predudism that was posted it was a persons, personal experience. It would be like you saying that in YOUR experience, staffy owners are murderes, allthough the difference is slight, it is a difference between personal experience and a blatant generalisation. If people take the personal experiences quoted out of context and prefer to see them as preduce remarks it's not the posters fault, it would be much nicer to add comments that pointed out things were being taken out of context and to ask for them to be re-explained so as not to cause further offence.

In the same way that it is your opinion that it was not prejudism where as it is my opinion that it is...

It was something that I found highly offensive. I am entitled to an opinion in the same way that anyone else is and as you are and we may have to agree to disagree with regards to the prejudism aspect. When things like this are brought up everyday and it is something that you have to live with, you do become very defensive about it.

It is a shame that some gypsies are horrible people and do give gypsies a bad name but people should be more open minded and not make out that these people do it BECAUSE they are gypsies, they would do it of they were house-dwellers. It is more to do with the type of person that they are more than to do with the fact that they are gypsies.

I just think that gypsies get a lot of stick from people and comments like the above do not help matters.

My personal experience of gypsys/travellers is the same, I remember as a kid walking to school looking at the lurcher lying under a hedge with her newborn litter of puppies - she didnt even have a kennel !!!!  There were a load parked outside my office last year, one terrier had to shelter from the rain under the caravan as again it had no shelter.  My experience is they have these dogs for working (rabbiting etc) they are not pets and dont appear to be treated like pets.

>I just think that gypsies get a lot of stick from people and comments like the above do not help matters.

But the majority of them dont do a lot to help themselves, they park up where they want, use the human rights laws to their advantage and when they finally get forced to move on they leave piles of rubbish behind, (including feaces !!), not forgetting the big ditches that then get dug and barriers that get put up to stop them getting back in.

But the majority of them

Exactly my point... a majority of them - not all of them.

I say majority, but in my experience its been all of them, im sure there is a small minority somewhere who park up legally and dont dump rubbish or poo on school playing fields.

> I say majority, but in my experience its been all of them, im sure there is a small minority somewhere who park up legally and dont dump rubbish or poo on school playing fields.

If you cant beat em...join em....and I think my original topic has gone to the dogs ('scuse the pun)

Thats my experience too Claire but I am sure there must be an exception to the rule, as there is with everything. Trouble is, a bad experience can cloud one's views can't it?!