Please help!

I have 2 male cocker spaniels (both were neutered at 6 months old) - 7 year old Harley and 18month old Jasper.

Quite frequently (several times a week) Jasper will full on attack Harley (usually pinned in a corner so he can't get away) for no reason whatsoever i.e. no food laying around, jasper only has one toy which is usually the opposite end of the room so there is nothing to fight over. I have witnessed some of these fights and Harley never fights back, he just squeels in shock and ties to get away while jasper attacks him, often drawing blood from harleys chest or ears (have already had a couple of trips to the vet).

I just don't know what to do - some people have said to leave them to sort things out - but it isn't them fighting each other, it is very one sided and poor harley is very unsettled for ages afterwards (not surprisingly!).

I feel terrible for bringing this little fighting machine into the home as harley is getting older and wants a peaceful life. Jasper is very dominant over him and whatever we have tried to do has not helped. Jasper pushes harley out of his bed so he has to sleep on the stone floor, pushes him to the back of the room, if the patio doors are open jasper guards the door and won't let harley come inside, every toy in the house (only one is out at atime) jasper claims instantly. If harley comes over for a tickle he barges in the way and harley trots off to the back of the room again.

First of all, welcome to Champdogs!  You'll find it very addictive, I'm afraid.

Now - your problem with Jasper and Harvey - sorry to hear about it - its very upsetting for you and your family as well as to the dogs themselves.   It's all about domination - Jasper is reaching maturity, and is attempting to show Harvey that he is "alpha dog" - and poor old Harvey, who doesn't seem to care at all - is being beaten up too much.

You have to take control here - if it has reached a pitch that Harvey has needed veterinary treatment, then you have to take over.

Make sure that they each have their own space - Harley in particular.    Do you use crates?    If Harley had his own crate, where he could retreat for peace and quiet, it would be helpful for him.  It would seem as if you have them sharing a bed and Jasper - Mr Pushy pup - is trying to claim it for his own.   Let them out in the garden, one at a time, don't give Jasper the chance to lord it over Harvey.   If he barges in when you are fussing Harvey - then barge him out again - let him see Harvey getting a fuss and THEN fuss him.

As you say, Jasper wants a quiet life - and Harvey wants world domination - and its up to you to ensure that he doesn't get it!

Margot

thank you for your reply,

we have thought that it is all about dominance and jasper wanting to be alpha dog but we are struggling to rein him back. A lot of the time the fights happen when we are not here (we live in a mid-terrace and our neighbours have said they have dog fights during the day when i am not here). We don't use crates, mainly because we don't have room for them. We had a small puppy one for when we first got jasper but got rid of this a long time ago and it woudn't have been big enough for harley.

We do have 2 beds in the kitchen (opposite ends) but whichever bed harley decides to go in, jasper barges him out. we have tried to stop this happening, but as harley is well and truly wary of jasper he will not come near him and is very uneasy around him.

Another thing that concerns me is that we have our first baby due in january, and i am so worried that when she gets to crawling / walking age she will be in the wrong place at the wrong time and be in the middle of one of these fights. Obviously we would never leave her alone with the dogs for a second, but these fights break out whether we are in the kitchen with them or not and there is never any warning, jasper just goes for harley.

at the start we left them to it, as we understood the whole ranking thing and knowing they had to sort out things between themselves, however it is now at the point where harley has clearly accepted being lower dog but jasper still has to give him regular beatings. Harley's poor ears are covered in scabs from where jasper has drew blood and i have just run out of what to do.

do you think it would be best to find jasper a new home where he will be the only dog? he doesn't like other dogs when out walking and we must muzzle him whenever he goes to the vets or places with other dogs as he gets very aggressive towards them.

Have you spoken to Jasper's breeder about this?   Would s/he be prepared to take Jasper back?

From what you are saying now, with the baby due, I get the feeling that you would really be happier rehoming Jasper - am I right?

i would really think about rehoming Jasper. if it were me i wouldn't leave these two dogs alone together ever. i would sleep them in seperate rooms if you can't cage them.
your poor older dogs must be pretty unhappy at the moment as he is doing all the right things by backing down to your younger boy but still being bullied.
it's never easy when you have to decide if you need to rehome a dog but with a baby on the way it will be very difficult to cope with this situation.
of course people do keep dogs that don't get on and keep them separated  but as i said with a baby due soon it's going to put a lot of pressure on you all.   
i would ring the breeder and ask advice, you never know if you do need to rehome they may have someone who could take the dog for you or maybe take the dog back themselves.
i do hope you manage to sort this out, it must be very hard for you all.

thank you for your replies - this really is a hard situation to deal with. I am very much for believing that a dog is for life, but we have tried everything and with him over the past year or so and i have just run out of energy and ideas. It breaks my heart to think that harley is unhappy and gets hurt by him when, as i said, he isn't the one intiating any of the fights or fights back.

And things are so much more difficult with a baby on the way - we had a small blip a couple of months ago where jasper was being aggressive towards us (growling and snapping) but we seem to have got over this hurdle. He comes from a working background (whereas harley is a show cocker) and i won't deny the fact that we were very naive to how different the two types would be. I personally feel that his problems, as well as being very dominant, may be that he is bored and frustrated as we can't give him the hours of exercise and stimulation that he needs. We both work full time and so they do spend a lot of time at home on their own. Harley is happy sleeping all day (his pace of life has somewhat slowed down) but jasper needs to be out in the field working - he s very distructive and we are on our second dining table and chair set in a year which he has already chewed after having it only a fortnight 9he only chews when we are not there).

It is a very difficult and upsetting situation to be in - jasper is very much my husbands dog and while it upsets me to think of seperating them i cant help thinking this is now the better option for everyone, including jasper.

Have you thought about a relative/friend or dog walker to come in and either take both or just Jasper out on his won while you are working, may help to burn off some of the energy he has during the day?

You've more or less answered your own questions, you can see full well what is going on here.

Working and Show Cockers have completely different characters and needs, my family have had many of each and at present my mother has 3 of each they get along absolutely fine, there is one alpha bitch who rules the lot of them, but the two strains get on great, so not the real problem in itself.

However, there is no way a young Working Cocker can spend it's days couped up in the house, it needs to be stimulated mentally and physically and will not turn into a couch potato, like your 7 year old Show Cocker who is more than happy to lounge around at this age. The Working Cocker at this age, ayoung adolescent, is probably going stir crazy when left alone with your Show Cocker, has no-one to play with and rid his excess energy with, and that excess can quickly turn to aggression.

I dare say there are heirarchy problems here, (though the age difference is brilliant not your fault there) but for the Working Cocker to be drawing blood when your Show is showing submission shows there is more to it, I would sumize he is extremely frustrated and his needs are just not being met, that is an owners fault, it needs addressing, if you can't give him what he needs, plenty of exercise, some training (clicker would be ideal) and lots more time,  with a new baby coming along I would suggest that you return him to his breeder, unless you are to change your lifestyle to accomodate him.

Do not leave the two dogs alone together, I feel so sorry for your Show Cocker, you'll need to put in a dog gate and keep them seperate when you are out, if you can give the Working Cocker more and wish to keep him, once he is an adult things may well change, they should change, but you need to install yourself as the boss here, call him off your Show Cocker immediately, stern voice and strong eye contact and get training him the basics to install yourself as the boss here.

thank you Carrington,

everything you said makes perfect sense and i agree with it all, it's just so heartbreaking to make the decision to find him a new home and my husband, and rightly so, is very upset about it. One half of me thinks he will be best in another home where he can get the exercise he needs, where the other part of me does not want my husband upset for the next god knows how long. we are desperately trying to find a way to improve his life.

On thing we were thinking is that i could move my work home (i am self employed but am currently based elsewhere). I could do this at a squeeze so they wouldn't be home alone all day, but would this really help? I will still have to be working so won't have time to keep entertaining the dogs. We already walk them both together every night (we play ball with jasper until he is exhausted) and my husband has said he would do this with him in the morning too before he goes to work. I'm just worried that this still would not be enough?

> On thing we were thinking is that i could move my work home but would this really help?

I'm not sure that it would. OK you could call Jasper off Harley a bit sooner if you were on hand, but it would still be pretty stressful for your older boy, never knowing when the next attack is coming. You might be able to manage by separating them with strategically placed stair gates, but that is not an ideal way to live, and particularly not after your baby is born.

I think you are going to have to bite the bullet and rehome Jasper to somewhere where he can be the only dog. Hopefully his breeder would be able to help with this.

Poor you, I do feel for you. It is bound to be a wrench, but Harley does not deserve this and Jasper would probably be happier too if he were able to be an only dog with someone else.

I could do this at a squeeze so they wouldn't be home alone all day, but would this really help?

It could depending on the work you do, if you were to have your own office and be working in there as I do you could easily have Harvey in there with you, he would snuggle up at your feet or on any sofa's or chairs you have there, you could then install a dog gate into the office doorway, so that Jasper can still see you and eventually learn to settle on his bed outside your office, either to sleep, or to be chewing a kong or knuckle bone to keep him occupied, (occupied being the word here) boredom causes destruction hence your wrecked furniture, :-O if you don't give a dog entertainment, it will definitely make it's own, usually at our expense :-D 

My mothers Working Cockers all over 3 years old will happily be couch potatoes now though, they lounge around just like the Show Cockers for a good 4 hours after their exercise, so bare in mind his age is making a lot of difference here.

So hypothetically going with this, the two dogs would be seperate, you are also home to keep Jasper in check and keep yourself as the boss, you could take tea/coffee breaks to interact a little and hopefully a little lunch break to take Jasper and Harvey out for a walk or ball play too. :-)

Hubby could easily do a morning walk before work, he could take the dogs at 6-7am for a nice 60 mins before he goes to work, (I've always done that) So, with a morning walk, you home in the daytime for interaction and maybe a quick walk and then an evening walk too, that will be enough. Show Cockers need approx 90 mins exercise a day, Working Cockers obviously can do more.

It depends how badly you wish to keep him, if he is your hubbies baby, it may be worth a try. 

I have a little niggle about his breeding, did he come from a good breeder? Young workers can sometimes be a little hyper if not given enough interaction and exercise, but they are generally a very easy going breed, not generally confrontational.  But, I'm thinking it is just his age and predicament he's been left in.

Think long and hard, it's down to you both at the end of the day. I know you are having a baby soon, but if hubby takes on the lions share of dog walks it can work.

If you decide to let him go, please send him back to breeder as hopefully they will vet a good home and he will then have a forever home and not be past on to others who think him the same as a Show Cocker. :-)