Ok this is long. But here goes

My friends bought a puppy of my breed from someone I wouldn't have touched with a barge pole. I was abit offended that they didn't ask for my advice, I don't care really but they are paying the price of a bad breeder.

Pup had to be pts last week at 14 months old, his enlarged heart which was already diagnosed at a very young age had bled into his stomach and nothing more could be done. He has been on medication since they found out and has never been walked due to he fact he would have dropped dead. He had very bad hips and what I thought looked like entropian.

They never told the breeder about these issues and haven't been in contact since they bought the pup. They emailed whe. Younger but got no response. They wanted me to ring them and let the breeder know and express that I think it's hereditary and they should take some responsibility for the dogs death and I'll health since basically day one. I have never heard such language and denail they said. They must have been running with it when it was younger etc etc. I cannot repeat what he said to me but it was awful. With this abuse I started to say, they could legally contact trading standards as the dog was unfit and they could sue them. He then said he was going to find out where we both live and come and smash my face in. Amongst lots of other things. What should I do? I was polite as I could be, explaining that the pup may have been ok when it was at their house trying to explain degenorative disease, but it was like French to a chimp. Neither parents were health tested and dam has died now. I'm Bit worried as he stated the area which is near to where I used to live before I went to uni several years ago, but my parents still live near there. Doesn't k ow my name or anything else though. I'm also worries for my friends as they actually bought the pup, but they don't know their names or addresses either. They told me not to worry but I cant help it. What a horrid horrid man!

Louise

Louise

I have never heard such language and denail they said. They must have been running with it when it was younger etc etc. I cannot repeat what he said to me but it was awful. With this abuse I started to say, they could legally contact trading standards as the dog was unfit and they could sue them. He then said he was going to find out where we both live and come and smash my face in. Amongst lots of other

Enough said Louise your not dealing with a decent breeder here, is it worth the aggro, really is it? It's not your dog, not your problem and these people did not go after the breeder for 14 months or until the pup died. Unless they wish to go through the process of taking things to court and being threatend is it really worth it.

Trading standards may well look into things with the Dam dead, from what? There may even be a case here, the police may well even take out an injunction and you could go to court about the threatening behaviour, you have cause here for all these things, but I ask again, is it all worth it?

Personally I would walk away, who wants to get involved in a big mess like this, they had the dog for 14 months, they would need to prove the pup was just not just 'unlucky' court cases like this take months, maybe even longer depending on other cases.

I would tell them to put it down to experience, next time they may well learn to get a dog from a good, referred breeder, but they need to fight their own battles if they wish to pursue I would step away now Louise. :-)

Thats so terrible! Bad breeders is right.
I would inform the police, just to have it on file for your back up. Nothing might come of it, little man with a big mouth. But better to be safe than sorry. I would also inform as many ppl as you know to stay away from these so called breeders.

I suppose the reason they didn't ask me for advise was that i sold them a puppy in 2007, which sadly passed away through BLOAT. I gave them support and we grieved, he was my last puppy to go as i kept him for the Christmas period, me and my family bonded with him when i took him round for the Christmas break and even my dad cried when we found out the news. I was well and truly gutted, I remained in contact with them and they must have felt awkward about asking me for advice on another puppy, which they do now regret of course as i said many times i will remain friends with them and help them whenever i can in the search for a new boy. When the grief has passed i will assist them in every way, as they are now good friends and good people its a terrible thing for this to have happened to them twice in such a short space of time.

Neither parents were health tested

Didn't you breed that litter without having the dam and sire hip scored?  So perhaps they didn't realise that responsible breeders health test before breeding?

I can't see why you got involved Louise - they should have contacted their breeder.

Louise - it is excellent that you now recognise the need for health testing before breeding (and not after) - it shows that our lectures have not been in vain ;) - but I agree with WestCoast - I don't think you should be involved.

It's extremely sad that these people have lost yet another puppy at an early age - I do hope that before they get another puppy they do take well-informed expert advice.

Doesn't say a lot for the breed, if they've lost 2 pups too!

Generalizing the entire breed on 2 puppies? One which died of bloat? Thats like saying all CKCS have syringomyelia

Doesn't say a lot for the breed, if they've lost 2 pups too!
Little to do with the breed.  More to do with the type of breeders that it attracts I would have thought.  There are good and bad breeders in all breeds. :(

I'd have to agree with Louise there. Fancy making such a sweeping statement on the basis of two dogs - both of whom died of different complaints!

In my experience Westcoast's point is most valid "More to do with the type of breeders that it attracts I would have thought"

Can bloat really occur as a result of bad breeding ?

Bloat occurs in all deep chested breeds, and i dont think is specifically a result of bad breeding. It happens to alot of breeds owned by many different types of owners, there is no one underlying cause. In this case it was vet negligence and owner in experience.

Bloat occurs in all deep chested breeds
and owner in experience.
I understand both of these comments.  Responsible breeders of this breed would not only ensure that dam and stud dog are hip scored and had no other hereditary health problems but would also include details of how/when/what to feed as well as the first signs of bloat in their written inforation booklet that would go with each puppy so that an inexperienced owner would know that their dog needed emergency treatment.

Can bloat really occur as a result of bad breeding ?
It is believed that a predisposition to bloat is hereditary but it can be avoided or at least the risk reduced by good husbandry.  A good breeder would make sure that the new owners understood the condition, the symptoms and the need for urgent veterinary intervention.

> Fancy making such a sweeping statement on the basis of two dogs - both of whom died of different complaints!

If I were the owner I must admit I might be looking to a different breed in future.  NOT necessarily for any scientific reason but simply an emotional one.  To lose two young dogs must seem very cruel and would be heartbreaking to watch another another similar puppy and always wonder...

With regard to the OP's intervention with the breeder:  it is the owners responsibility to make sure that any health issues with which their dog is affected and which may be attributable to the breeding of their dog is reported to the original breeder.  I do not think that anyone else should make this call, whether they feel better qualified or not, or even if just motivated by kindness.

Whether the breeder is one of the good ones or not, I can imagine he'd be peeved to receive a call from a complete stranger purporting to represent an owner. Particularly when as you say "They never told the breeder about these issues and haven't been in contact since they bought the pup".  I'm also not entirely sure just what you'd all hope to achieve with this phone call?

Someone on here often says you 'need honey to catch flies' and a well worded letter might have a better approach.  The owners could have got some documentation from the vet and made a reasoned argument for the breeders to consider the evidence.  To just ring and shove all the information at them without giving them time to think is actually a bit rude.  Of course they should be told, but that should have happened at a much earlier stage and, if the email received no response, then the owners should have written to the breeder or called to say they were sending some information they'd like to discuss.

It's very sad for the owners but it may also have been a missed opportunity with the original breeder too.  He may well have been rude and aggressive anyway but all the phone call seems to have done is inflamed the situation and become confrontational.

> I'd have to agree with Louise there. Fancy making such a sweeping statement on the basis of two dogs - both of whom died of different complaints!

Hardly sweeping.     Yes, it is partly all to do with the type of breed it is and the 'idiots' that are attracted to it and decide they need to fund their lifestyles with a litter of pups but how can anyone be so unlucky as to buy in 2 pups & lose both of them from 2 different 'breeders'?

i did ensure that they were warned about bloat and actually advised them to feed there other ddb twice a day and spread the meals out. thanks for saying i didnt. They did phone the vet at the first symptoms of bloat and very advised that he'd just eaten too much. My only regret is that they didnt ring me too.

I didn't say that you didn't Louise.  But you said that it was due to owner ignorance, so if you told them, how could they be ignorant? 

Apart from spreading feeds, water intake and exercise also plays a part in bloat.  Measuring is a good guide to the extent of the problem.  If they'd had more information, then they would have known that their dog hadn't eaten too much ..........

I said owner inexperience, not everyones quick and on the ball as you would hope or like them to be, but when told by a professional that hes just eaten too much 'like when you eat to much christmas dinner' they didnt push it further. I always give a very detailed pack with the puppies, and vocally warn them of how big a killer this is in the breed.

I find it hard to see why you got involved at all. you did not need this aggro so distance yourself.