okay im to embarresed to ask this at a dog show and a bit on here but here goes, (ive never bred dogs)

what does a ' test mating ' mean?  is it when you breed from a dog which could have something wrong with it to see what it throws up?

why do you have to register a puppy from a litter which was stillborn or has died?

>why do you have to register a puppy from a litter which was stillborn or has died?

You don't. You don't have to register any puppy at all.

why do you have to register a puppy from a litter which was stillborn or has died?

Anyone that did this I would be highly suspicious of.

Breeders with KC reg dogs register their litters to firstly show that it is a pedigree dog with KC reg parents to then get official papers and a history that can be traced back through it's ancestors and become part of the database of registered dogs. Also to have the transfer of ownership forms and to enable any of the litter to then be entered into various KC competitions.

A pup that is stillborn or has died, needs no pedigree or transfer of ownership and it certainly would not be entering any competitions. :-(

Anyone registering pups that are not alive could only be doing so to perhaps pass this pedigree onto a live and unregistered pup, to con potential puppy owners into believing it is a pedigree or from a dam and sire which it is not really born of. There are scams everywhere. :-(

Of course if a litter is registered and then a pup unfortunately dies that is very unfortunate and no-ones fault for registering a dog that does not exist.

Anyone registering pups that are not alive could only be doing so to perhaps pass this pedigree onto a live and unregistered pup, to con potential puppy owners into believing it is a pedigree or from a dam and sire which it is not really born of. There are scams everywhere. :-(

Hmm maybe just one option but not everyone who registers the whole litter with perhaps one born dead  are up to scams.

I don't personally BUT I know in the past people did register the litter regardless. Perhaps when it was cheaper and I believe some did to help keep breed records correct.  IE average litters etc  Also bare in mind people register litters early on line now and deaths do happen.

I lost a bitch puppy a few litters back after I had send the registration document in, there was an error on the document so they sent it back for correct ( my puppies died between sending the document and receiving it bacK)  I did call the KC and have the bitch deleted. ( I remember liking the name so choose to keep it back)

oh i see i never thought it could be a scam i thought it was the kc's way of keeping health records/surveys. thanks anyway

what does a ' test mating ' mean?  is it when you breed from a dog which could have something wrong with it to see what it throws up?

Basically to find out what it carries (if there is no DNA test for it) but it doesn't have to be for problems (and indeed is much less likely to be!) -it could be to see if a dog is capable of producing a certain colour for instance, or coat type.

oh thanks marianne, somethings i hear at the ringside, i thought it was something really dodgy!

just been on phone to my breeder and mentioned the test mating she tells me that some people have used it for dodgy stuff, oh dear! (our breed has dna testing)

> oh dear! (our breed has dna testing)

DNA tests are only available for a few conditions with others it is either avoidance of lines or test mating.  Personally for me the latter is not a good tool in the normal run of things as insufficient pups will be produced to really prove anything.

For example if two carriers are mated statistically 1 in 4 pups will be affected, but we all know that statistically we should get half and half in a litter dogs and bitches, how often do we get that?  Over many litters yes.

For example recently a whole litter was DNA tested where one parent was a carrier, so should produce 50% carriers in a litter.  As it happens the litter was large for the breed and only 3 were carriers (so perfectly healthy but carrying the gene) and 7 were clear.  In a smaller sample they could just as easily have all been clear or all carrier.

So if trying to test mate for a recessive condition you could easily end up thinking a dog was clear when it wasn't as that one in four affected didn't materialise in that particular litter.

Of course it was the only tool the breeders had before DNA if they were trying to save a line of breeding.  Also what to do with the resulting affected puppies?  Purely the breeders dilema if the conditon is obvious at birth or soon after, but what about as in my breed where symptoms don't manifest sometimes until 6 years of age?

thanks brainless i understand now. your breed sounds similar to ours symptoms are not present at birth. our dna test are not working fully at moment so our breed is in a bit of a pickle.
i know lots of breeders in my breed will mate a clear with carrier all the  time. i wonder what they tell their puppy buyers. 

>i know lots of breeders in my breed will mate a clear with carrier all the  time.

Breeding a clear to a carrier can, at worst, produce more carriers. Puppies cannot be affected and it keeps the gene pool wider, which is good.

It's not necessarily wise to remove carriers from the gene pool because a dog is more than a single condition.

quite, some of the bottlenecks in our breeds are due to having in the past avoided various lines because of problems thrown up from time to time,a nd of course this narrowing of the gene pool makes other problems even more likely to surface.

With reliable DNA tests (not marker but actual gene tests as we now have for prcd-PRA). means no dog need be removed from the gene pool as all can be bred from without producing affected offspring.

Of course you may not want to breed from an affected animals, but when the condition isn't even apparent until old age to save bloodlines even they can be used, then their carrier offspring (no affecteds will be produced to a clear mate) and then be mated to clear and the gene eventually bred out once the pool of clears is wide and representative enough of the breed as a whole.