In our breed recently the judge witheld the CC but awarded the Reserve CC. Thought this was rather odd as the old wording on the RCC said "is of such outstanding merit as to be worthy of being awarded the CC should the CC winner be disqualified" I know that this has now changed to "Having assessed the dogs and penalised any features or exaggerations which I consider detrimental to their soundness, health or welfare, I am clearly of the opinion that .........is worthy of being awarded Reserve Best of Sex in Breed" I presume that it still holds true that a RCC winner can be awarded the CC if the CC winner is disqualified. If a judge thinks that none of the entry is worthy of the CC, surely the RCC should be witheld as well?

If you withold the CC, the res cc must also be witheld

That's what we thought, but had to ask the question as the judge who did this is an experienced allrounder awarding CC's in many breeds.

OOhh i wonder, tbh, i think the awards will be taken away by the KC and the judge may be fined

Definitely incorrect & the Ring Steward should have advised the judge(please note I wrote advise & not tell) The Best dog/bitch still has to be awarded as does the BOB even if both CC's are withheld. Methinks the judge will be fined & a decision made on whether the CC should have been awarded instead or the Res CC withdrawn.

I feel potentially sorry for the owners of the dog who got the RCC, if they have it taken away from them then how is it their fault, surely it should stand and the judge should be dealt with accordingly or the owners get the full CC.

As others have said it can't be done, given the judge is very well known (and respected) I wonder if it's a mistake on fosse - can I ask Pod where you actually at the show, or know someone who was watching?

Assuming it's the (hound) breed I'm thinking of I rather like the look of the dog concerned, of course I can't see him moving but he has a reasonable show record including BOB crufts last year.

looks like places witheld again in Samoyed breed

places withheld in beardies too never heard  of it before in my breed.

Sorry - false info - or rather incomplete on Fosse. Have checked with weary travellers and the other CC was awarded - but Fosse's results are incomplete. They seem to be slipping a bit lately. Thanks for the replies - we all learn something!

While we are on the witholding theme - what are your views on witholding awards from puppy classes. Judges rarely withold in our breed but when they have it seems to be the puppy classes - even the whole class! I feel that unless there is something drastically wrong (lame, unhealthy, totally exaggerated or of poor temperament)you must forgive puppies as they are still growing and can be bum high one month, look a little narrow in chest, and also a little soft in condition as they have limited exercise. Puppy classes were witheld in our breed by 2 judges in 2003/4. One of these puppies went on to win top Puppy for that year and 3 res CCs & is the dam of a bitch with 2 CC's. Two other puppies in the class also carried on winning first prizes that year, one of them also being the dam of a bitch with 2CCs.  On the other occasion one puppy went on to win BPD at a club champ show and also several firsts at general champ shows and Puppy Groups at Open shows & sired 2 JW winners & a CC winner; the other puppy also notched up first prizes at champ shows and 4 BIS at Open shows.
The witholding of places should reflect the quality of the entry but looking at the examples above  it also seems to call into question the quality of some judging.

> The witholding of places should reflect the quality of the entry but looking at the examples above  it also seems to call into question the quality of some judging

I withheld all the places in a puppy class I judged, non of the dogs fulfilled the breed standard IMHO-if I cannot handle a dog at all(which was the case in the Puppy class)then I cannot place the dogs-no excuse(as I was given)of just being a puppy-no dog should be so frightened of people & be shown. 1 puppy went on to win a CC, but it had to be propped up in the ring & the CC judge never touched the dog at all !

I suspected that was a fosse error :-)

The only time I have ever had a prize withheld from me was in a puppy class. 8 month old borzoi bitch (zois take a loooong time to mature!). This was her 2nd champ show, the 1st she'd taken BPIB. She was the only one in puppy bitch, I was watching the dog puppies thinking we could take them :-D  Pup moved as well as pups too, bit fond of her tail and a couple of jumps around. She enjoyed the judge going over her then stood very nicely. The judge walked over to the table and sat down, instead of calling us out. The steward then walked all round the ring shouting 'the judge withholds all prizes in this class. I wish the ground could have opened up and swallowed us, how embarrassing! The ridiculous thing is that she turned into a really lovely bitch, it was 8 years though before I plucked up the courage to show her again though - she won open bitch, CC and BOB :-)

I'm all for judges withholding places from inferior exhibits, but occasionally I think the odd one does it to prove a point or make a name for themselves. Certainly in my case the pup had no glaring faults and was typical for her breed at that age.

I would always question, that if you can recognise the breed, then it has enough 'type' to be placed.  There was one Sibe on the circuit a long time ago that had it ever come under me I would have with held. I do agree with Moonmaiden that you have to be able to go over the dog too. I am still pondering about the KC's new guidelines ;-)

Well I have heard that the beardie judge was from the US and placing 1st to 4th as in the US then was informed by the steward that she had missed one so began placing 1-5th then in the bitches began 1-4th again , we have been informed that no places were withheld as stated in fosse so dont know whats going on.

Not sure which new guidelines we're talking about so won't comment on that.

To the OP I'm pretty sure that you withold both CC & RCC (haven't had either for a while so can't remember the new wording ;-))

Moonmaiden, I quite agree about being able to go over a dog.  Particularly in this day & age of the bash the show exhibitors!  I have a boy who went through a very weird fear phase & wouldn't let a man go over him, I showed him twice under men at this stage & then took him out the ring.  I believe we've got a male judge at Crufts next year & I was very conscience that if he was going to be frightened then I wouldn't show him.  Fortunately he let a male judge examine him at Richmond & didn't bat an eyelid so we're out of the woods.  I really believe that dogs should be happy in the ring.  (yes, I've digressed, many apologies!)