Does anybody have a breeding terms contract that they are willing to send me a copy of if so please PM me
thank you

All breeding terms contracts are different and can say whatever the people involved agree, whether it's 2 puppies from one litter or half of every litter that the bitch produces in her life! :(

But having seen so many people fall out because of them, I wouldn't consider having or selling a dog on terms unless I knew the other party VERY well and even then, wouldn't mind losing their friendship. :(

Have to agree with West coast.  If it is a puppy back at some point that is the purpose of the agreement your far better to mentor the owner and suggest a good match if and when they choose to breed and buy a puppy from them.

Hi brac

I agree with the other posters.  I would neither sign nor commit someone else to a formal terms contract.  If you trust the new owners and ensure you have a good ongoing relationship with them then a contract is unnecessary.  If in doubt don't let them have a puppy which you feel you would want something back from in the future.

IMO too much emphasis is put on these types of dealings in the dog world and many have fallen foul of them over the years.   The best way to ensure trust and respect is to show it :)

best wishes, Teri

I find it weird people have so negative attitude to selling a puppy on breeding terms here in UK.
I don't really understand where the fall outs come from if everything is on paper and agreed before hand?

In Finland many many puppies are sold like this and KC has a "breeding terms"-contract they distribute and people use.

I suppose "breeding culture" has something to do with it, many finnish breeders only own two bitches and use bitches sold on breeding terms to continue the line, not many big breeders about.
Many breeders will have few puppies in each litter that go out on breeding terms and then they can have their pick and not have to use the one they maybe kept if it turns out not the best. I know fair few people who own a dog on breeding terms and the dog has not been used as the breeder did not want to use it for some reason.

My Current girls litter was 8 pups and the breeder "owns" 4 of them, none live with her, all are out on breeding terms.

I have had a bitch on breeding terms in the past and am hopefully getting a another one soon :).

From the original post I took 'Breeding Terms' to mean some kind of condition associated with the endorsement ie approved stud, breeder to matchmake etc

From Noora's post it seems like a bitch can be permanently loaned/fostered in order for the original breeder to maintain full control over their lines/progeny

Can someone clarify exactly what 'Breeding Terms' means please?  Many thanks :)

I find it weird people have so negative attitude to selling a puppy on breeding terms here in UK.
I don't really understand where the fall outs come from if everything is on paper and agreed before hand?

Me too. Coming from Sweden it is VERY common there and indeed here in the UK I have a bitch on breeding terms, I had no problems signing anything about it and have not had a single problem. Every tiny detail is in writing so we both know where we stand from day one -including if she should fail to have pups, have any problems etc etc.

Can someone clarify exactly what 'Breeding Terms' means please?

Usually it means you get a good quality bitch puppy and pay nothing for her, but agree to have pups from her -how many litters, who owns and rears the pups etc can vary.

> I find it weird people have so negative attitude to selling a puppy on breeding terms here in UK.
> I don't really understand where the fall outs come from if everything is on paper and agreed before hand?
>

Examples I know of personally.

Bitch has a temperament sharper than owner thinks should be bred from, or the bitch is not the quality they think should be used for breeding, but breeder still wants the bitch bred from.

Change in owner circumstances means they don't want to commit to a litter, owner doesn't like the breeders choice of stud.  Then there are misunderstandings/resentments over the technicalities of who foots the bills, (often it is additonal out of pocket expenses that the owner has like time off work etc) the bitches breeder wants the pup the owner prefers etc etc.

Examples I know of personally.

All of which could have been covered in the contract. Few examples of what is mentioned in the one I have signed: who picks the stud dog (the breeder for first litter, even so she gave me two choices), who has first pick of litter, who has second (and third and fourth even), how many pups breeder is entitled to,what I am entitled to, under what circumstances the bitch should NOT be bred from and whose decision it is etc. If it's all down there, then there shouldn't be any misunderstandings and excuses like having to take time off work for a litter, not liking choice of stud dog etc are then just excuses because it was all there in writing from day one.If they don't agree with not having input in certain areas, don't sign and instead buy a pup -simple. :)

I think the difference is that the British mentality doesn't take well to bing controlled. 

For example joint ownership with the breeder having loads of say in the showing and breeding of a dog seems to be happily accepted in some countries yet most buyers in UK want to know a dog is theirs and theirs only.

Relations can become strained over the most petty and usually unforeseen things..

What seems to happen in my breed is that winning breeders stitch up newbies telling them that this is what everyone does (not true!) and this is the way to start with a decent quality pup to show (also not true!).  They sign in ignorance.Sometimes this includes 2 pups in every litter that the bitch has throughout her life.  So if the new breeders hand over the two best pups in every litter, then they don't stand a chance of keeping the best to show or breed on from.  As the newbies ask around and realise that this is not what everyone else does - lots of grumbles!

I believe that some even tied male pups into terms too.

Maybe it is mentality or the way contracts have been made by some!
What westcoast describes is totally unfair way of doing it and I can see why you would be unhappy as the "host".

I believe the standard contract produced by the Finnish kennel club was created as an example what is seen as fair to all parties.
The breeding terms contract has few parts that can be modified and agreed on but one thing that is "set in stone" is that after the bitch has had a 1 litter for the breeder the full ownership transfers to the host or after the bitch is over certain age(3 or 4) even if no litter is produced. The breeder has all rights to that first litter, chooses the stud, registers the pups to their name and bares all the costs(including health testing).
With males it is 3 matings resulting in litters or when the male turns 5 years old.

The contract does say additional rules can be made between the parties but they need to be reasonable and to contact the breed club/kennel club for advise if necessary.

After these -breeding terms- have been fullfilled the dog becomes fully owned by the host so ownership is not an issue and they can do what they wish and breed making all choices like they would had they bought the puppy as 8 weeks old.
So it really can be a good way to get the pick of the litter and go through the full process of breeding/showing etc with somebody with loads of knowledge and then end up with a lovely bitch to start your own breeding with.
Obviously good breeder will mentor puppy buyers anyway but for example in my case I did get a lovely bitch I would have not had otherwise. There were only 3 bitches in the litter, other two booked and the breeder wanted to keep hold of the line by keeping/putting the pick of the litter out on breeding terms.

> Sometimes this includes 2 pups in every litter that the bitch has throughout her life.

And sometimes it's even worse ... ;-)

M.

Mmmm :)

> What seems to happen in my breed is that winning breeders stitch up newbies telling them that this is what everyone does

Oh, and sometimes it's not winning breeders either!

M.

So if the new breeders hand over the two best pups in every litter, then they don't stand a chance of keeping the best to show or breed on from.  As the newbies ask around and realise that this is not what everyone else does - lots of grumbles!

But why should ignorance be an excuse? It isn't when Joe Public goes out and buys a Labrador from the lady down the road who has both parents (not hipscored, elbow scored or eye tested) and the pups are sold with no papers, then it's "They should have done their research." I honestly don't see the difference.

Not always free with puppies back.
Some people ask for full puppy price and first pick of pup from any litter born.
It can be tempting if you are trying to become established in a small breed but very worrying.
My only litter had two pups and one died on day 2 so if I had done this I would have been left with nothing. Thankfully I didn't but means I am still looking for a pup which seems ages now.

Human emotions have to come into it too. I know of someone who had a bitch on breeding terms. The bitch was much loved and adored in her new home, was mated when the time came, had a difficult whelping and produced one pup. The dam became ill, had to be neutered and couldn't feed pup. The 'carer' hand reared the pup and became very attached to her and wanted to keep her, despite having a clear contract agreeing to hand over pick of litter, or the only pup in the event of a singleton. The bitches carer offered to pay any price but the bitches breeder wanted the pup, they fell out and small claims court became involved.

Know how it feels I bought a bitch (full price) on a puppy back verbal contract.  Bitch had three pups of which two died.  I bought back the pup that was to go to honour the contract again full price paid.

Good that they let you buy the pup back Joan. I am wary now and hope not to have to get involved in terms if at all possible.

It would seem terms are common or frequent in some breeds and virtually never entered into in others.  Mine is of the latter persuasion.

More often a loan of bitch agreement works best if the bitches breeder wants a puppy/litter registered in their name.

In the US they call it leasing a bitch for breeding, and basically for a fee a bitch owner will allow someone to borrow their bitch for a litter.

My 'F' litter was bred from a bitch whose owners were unable to rear a litter so i DID IT AND PAID THEM FEE EQUIVALENT TO QA STUD FEE OR PUPPY PRICE (THEY HAD WANTED A PUP BUT IN THE EVENT WERE UNABLE TO HAVE ONE DUE TO ILL HEALTH).

> for a fee a bitch owner will allow someone to borrow their bitch for a litter.
>

That is fab! I haven't come across this

I would never take a bitch or dog for that matter on breeding terms,  when I buy a dog its mine, I decide if and when it produces puppies.

It goes on a lot in my breed, and as there will only ever be a couple of pups (in most litters)  that would be considered show quality,  if some of the breeders terms had to be met, you would never get yourself a home bred show pup.

I know of one case at then mo, owner got pup, on terms,  the bitch had to be spayed for what ever reason,  and the breeder is now demanding  £££££££££  in compensation for the pups she will never get from said bitch.

I know there is an argument for "doing your research"  before you buy, no one forces you to take said pup on terms, but from some of the stories I hear  (in my breed)   it would make me run a mile from any one who insists on breeding terms.

We did something very similar to this we had a bitch over, hand raised and looked after a litter and agreed to half of everything that included us paying half of vet bills, scans, feeding, puppy packs etc, etc in return getting half of puppy price. (But this was for a family member) Both parties were happy with the arrangement, but nobody was tied into a breeding contact the owner planned the litter and circumstances changed so we had to help out.

> That is fab! I haven't come across this

You can get a loan of bitch agreement from the KC and it means you don't have to transfer ownership of the bitch back and forth, but you set out the period of the agreement during which any pups produced are registered as bred by the person who takes the bitch on loan.

wouldn't consider buying or selling a dog with such terms.
I had to turn down a pedigree cat I wanted for same reason-beautiful kitten I had waited many months for -then a week before I was due to take her home the breeder annouced ontop of paying full wack for my kitten she wanted it to remain in her name , have a litter with sire chosen by her and her getting pick of litter and be shown umptine times by herself too!  she then had hump when I said although I was willing to show the kitten under her origonal name-showing breeder in name- and would be willing to breed a litter (if she showed well and lokked fit to be bred from) with her able to purchase one after I had picked (and would be willing to be guided by her sugguestions on sire) I wanted FULL ownership or not at all.  It turned into not at all as she wasn't happy with those terms either and I don't regrete not having the kitten. on those terms the little one would have never been mine and I wanted her as a pet for us -not for us to be some cheap boarding cattery for her animal!