> I am amongst those who think that the bet course of action would be to euthanise the whole litter (as soon as possible)  - and have your little bitch spayed as soon as possible.

That's not a choice of action I'd suggest, because spaying a bitch whose hormones are all over the place (as they will be imediately after whelping) can cause terrible problems. If the entire litter was unexpected and circumstances mean that correct rearing (taking 8 weeks off work etc) isn't possible then cutting the numbers down to two or three pups, that the mother could manage better by herself, and then spaying her when the pups are homed and all trace of milk production has gone, would be a safer course of action.

But as you say, we need to know the facts before valid advice can be given.

Sorry - when I said as soon as possible, I did mean in about 12 weeks time - its so easy not to make oneself clear :)

"Oh dear, dbartlett, you haven't got off on a very good footing have you?"

It would seem to me that actually I am not welcome on this forum at all!

You see, its difficult not to be judgmental

I personally try never to judge anybody - regardless. All I wanted was some advice as to what was OK, not to be subjected to judge, jury and executioner when you all seem to be saying you do not have the full facts you need to offer constructive advise. So instead of asking constructively for the missing information, you fight amongst yourselves about what the situation may or may not be. Is this what the dog breeding world is like? Spiteful and negative?

This terrier bitch was my young brother's pride and joy. He was killed in a car accident three weeks ago. I knew the bitch was pregnant, she had been scanned as having three pups. thought I could take it on, for the sake of my brother and to give the poor little bitch some consistency in her life. She has always loved being with my German Shepherd, and I thought it may help to jolly her along to come and be with us. She has been refusing to eat and/or drink ever since he died, and had become very poor looking even before she whelped.  My VERY experienced vet suggested it may help the bitch not to have to deal with so many. The first night of having the pups she wouldn't lie with them, and the german shepherd (who obviously remembers having had her own pups - and yes, it was before I owned her!) lay down with them and kept them warm. The bitch has since started to feed them, but three are tiny in comparison to the other four.

I am amongst those who think that the bet course of action would be to euthanise the whole litter (as soon as possible)

I am sorry that you think that by trying to do the right thing for the memory of my brother and this poor little bitch I have been soooo wicked.  He had set up two homes, and those two people are both being really sweet and saying they'll take two pups each to help. Are you saying I should refuse to let any of them go and have a happy life then and just 'get rid'of the whole lot?

Inconvenient for you to rear?

Since his widow and small daughter of 11 months are staying with me, in what is the most terrible time I have ever experienced, it isn't really feasible right now. I am doing my best just to get through each day.

Maybe I didn't want to have to tell all this really personal stuff. Maybe I just wanted some help and support.

Right in this case then I feel it may well be best to coinsider the vets advice and only keep a small number of puppies to keep mum happy and knowing you have homes lined up for them. Can you give mum plenty of fluids including possibly some chicken broth the recipe is on here somewhere I will look and be back with a link in a minute. If puppies are suckling and she is cleaning them it may well help resolve her grieving for your brother to have her time taken up by them.
Edited to add I  seem to have mixed up my recipes chicken broth would be made as you would for human consumption but without any added salt. the recipe I was thinking of was this one for a gruel type feed
Gruel recipe.
Cup of Porridge
2 cups of Water
1 Egg
Tablespoon of Honey
Tablespoon of Milk powder (whelpi or similar)
Tablespoon of Glucose

I am so very sorry for your loss.

Thank you for giving us a bit more information. From what you tell us about your bitch and her condition, then I agree with your vet that reducing the size of the litter (and therefore the stress on the bitch and, indeed you!) is certainly an option to consider. Not necessarily a pleasant thing to do, but it can be the kindest in the long run. Pups which are very weak at birth often have a very uncomfortable struggle to survive and often sadly die after days of discomfort. Preventing that can be the kindest option.

I would also suggest that the potential owners don't take two puppies each; successfully rearing two puppies together, especially siblings, is difficult for even experienced dog owners, and even more so for those not used to multiple dogs and the different way they need to be handled compared with a single puppy. By all means let them have one puppy each, but that still leaves suitable homes to find for the others.

You are obviously and understandably still very raw following the tragic loss of your brother, for which you all have my condolences. I'm sure you also realise that nobody here is a mind-reader; personal reasons for a course of action are understandable, but not always wisest (been there, done that!).

May I be amongst the first to offer my condolences - and like Satincollie, I think you should follow your vet's advice and let the smallest puppies go.   You have enough on your plate at the moment - and to struggle to rear puppies that your vet feels may not make it will only add to the heartbreak you are going through.

Be stong - obviously you have to be just now - please come back here for advice and we will help just as much as we can.

Margot

How is mum doing with the pups today?  One of my girls, last summer, had a litter of 9, which is a large litter for my breed, she coped fine, I was ready to help out if need be, but she managed perfectly well on her own, and at 8 weeks old 9 chunky healthy pups went to their new homes.

Just keep mum well fed, plenty of fluids, weigh the pups daily to check they are all gaining equally.

Good luck!

hello dbartlett,   i am so so sorry for yours and your familys loss,  i hope both you and the little dog can get through this.

i think the best thing for you to do is follow your heart and your vets advice and do what is best for you, your family and the dog at this very very hard time.

may your brother rest in peace and good luck to you all,  my thoughts are with you.  X

Having been through a family members not 12 months ago, and had to deal with her pets (fortunately none of them pregnant) I feel I know a little about how you might be feeling and what you have got to deal with.

I think having the three weaker pups PTS would be a sensible and responsible course of action.

I would also acho JG's advice NOT to let prospective owners take on two pups each, as kind an offer as that is. Litter mates who live together are potentially a nightmare, and same gender ones are even worse.

I think some folk on here need to stop leaping to horrible conclusions - whilst it IS hard to work out whats going on from a very brief initial post, why must everyone leap to the WORST possible reason or answer to every query?

I hope some of our posts HAVE been useful to you.

Thank you to the last few posters for the kind thoughts and the recipe. I have made some broth and will get some milk powder tomorrow. I won't make any hasty decisions about the smaller three - I have just spent some time trying to make sure they get a fair crack ar the teats and they actually seemed quite strong. How much weight should they be putting on each day?

I'll keep you updated

Just want to say i wish you, puppies & mum good luck. It must be such a terrible time for you and your family, and i am so sorry to hear you have lost your brother.

Not sure how much weight the pups should be putting on as mine are different size,  with mine (medium size) its about 1 - 1.5 oz a day. Hopefully someone will be able to advise better than me.

BTW this forum sometimes scares me, so i can only imagine how shocking it must have been for you!

As long as they are putting one a little weight each day, then you are on the right track.   It's a question of perserverance - let the strongest ones suckle first on the back teats, then once the milk is coming through, put the littlest ones there - move the bigger ones to the front teats.   Its a bit of a palavar to start with, but once the smaller ones are strong enough to suckle hard enough to stimulate the milk flow then you can put them straight onto the back teats.

In a similar situation with a bitch in poor condition that a friend had whelp an unexpected litter the vet thought it best to leave the bitch with two pups to assuage the maternal instinct, and for there to be a litter so the pups could  develop the social skills needed.

If there are two homes lined up they should stick to one pup each as having two pups together is a very bad idea, (you can search here for the topic as it has been covered frequently).

I am sorry for your loss of your brother.

All the best dbartlett, good for you for giving it a go. I can understand why you wouldn't want to let any of them go under the circumstances. If the pups are hanging on to life then so be it. Personally I can't imagine ever PTS a healthy dog without giving it my best shot first.

Good luck with them, you have time to find homes for the rest of them and seven is not such an enormous number.
And so sorry about your brother.

What a difficult time this must be for you and your family...

All I would add is that although it must be very hard thinking about euthanizing some of this litter, the sooner the decision is made the better, as mum will have more of an attachment the older they are. I'm just worried about the work involved in 7 pups when they start getting bigger. I would tend to agree with some here, that a small number to nurture mum's maternal instinct could be the best thing all round in the circumstances.

At the moment, the pups won't be demanding on you, but in a few weeks, 7 pups all needing your attention might be too much at this time. Add to that the need to find suitable homes for them (I'm sure it's the last thing you really want to be doing). have you considered contacting your local rescue centre, they may be able to help with homing?

Please stay with us, I for one will be more than happy to help if I can.

Have you tried giving mum some raw meat mince added to her food to encourage her to eat? They sometimes like milk too when they're feeding pups (goats milk better than cow's) or powdered puppy milk from pet shops.

And don't forget the vets are at the end of the phone with any questions you may have also, my vets recognise my voice, I called quite often when we had pups.

Tanya

Just a short update for you  all.

Mum seems to have sudenly developed a new zest for life! She simply doesn't stop eating and is wolfing down everything I gove her. She loves the gruel and the broth, and has started eating puppy meal (Autarky was recommended to me as a good brand). I got some Lactol and she is drinking a couple of pints a day. She has even growled and snapped at the German Shepherd and told her to leave the pups alone - she is well and truly established as 'mum'.

The three smaller pups are actually putting on weight, and although smaller than the other four thay have already doubled their birth weight, which the vet says is good. He is amazed at the change in the bitch and says maybe we should hang-fire on any drastic measure. The vet practice are also going to help me find homes, so hopefully this part of the story at least will have a happy ending.

Thank you to the kind people who expressed their condolences and gave constructive helpful advice.

I'm glad things are going well for mum and pups ......hope that your family too are getting themselves back together (as much as is possible at this sad time) - I hope that the pups will help cheer up your SiL and baby!

If you have any problems as the pups get bigger, don't forget to come back and we'll help as much as we can!

Margot

I am glad she has perked up.

Also do not allow the other dog any where near the pups to avoid distressing Mum and any unpleasantness between the dogs, until their eyes are open t least at which time she will be less guardy with the, She will need about 4 times her normal rations and I would be careful not to give her more than about half a pint of the lactol as it will give her the runs.

It is best to soak her dry food almost to a slop as often the mouth will be sore from all the cleaning of the puppies and it makes sure she gets enough liquid which is vital of the milk supply.

Good luck :)

I am so glad things are looking better for mum and puppies and that the little ones are doing well. Please do not hesitate to ask any questions you may need to.
Best Wishes Gill

Hi all
I know it is looking ahead a while, but at what age should I begin to wean my litter? Is this a question that will generate controversy all round, or are there any absolute MUST/MUST NOT dos?

No easy answers, some pups will require starting as soon as the eyes are open, especially if the rate of weight gain starts to level out instead of steadily increasing.

Some pups are not really hungry enough until 4 weeks, but it is a good idea in my opinion and experience to get them onto solids as worming time approaches which will be at about 3 weeks, depending on the product used.

Unless it's a large litter (more puppies than the bitch has nipples) I generally start weaning around about 3 weeks - just a teaspoonful once daily for each puppy for the first few days - gradually building up the amount each puppy gets daily.

> she is well and truly established as 'mum'.

After reading through that lot, it's so nice to read some good news! I just wanted to say, I hope she continues to do well for you and the pups. People handle things differently, some may find this an extra boost during such a sad time, something to take the mind off and bring some much needed smiles. Some may just not be able to cope at all. Either way, I'm sure the right decision will be made. I'm very sorry to hear about your loss and well done for giving this little bitch and her pups a chance! Hopefully those few on this forum that did nothing but 'bash' you without the facts, may actually come along just as quickly and apologise! Good luck!

Good luck with the puppies and mum- they are very lucky to have you step in and look after them all. I am so sorry to hear about your brother x

How are your pups doing? Hope all is well with you all :-)

Hi

Firstly sorry for the loss of your brother.

I have followed the thread and was in such a dilema, i could understand people saying pts the small ones, but if i was in that situation i think i would try everything possible first, my heart rules my head alot of the time, so you can imagine how pleased i was to hear mum and pups are doing well after not being on for a few days.

Keep up the good work and i hope the vets do find you some cracking homes for the pups.

Hi all
Another update.
Pups all thriving, mum looking well and perky, and actually seems to have put weight on! All pups eyes are open, and pups are starting to use their legs a bit more like real puppies now. Also characters are beginning to develop. I've started offering warm milk (Lactol) in a shallow dish for those who want it, and am suprised to find its the bigger ones rather than the smaller ones. I have begun giving them 'tasters' of real food, liquidised chicken breast and puppy meal soaked into a porridge. Some are keener than others but I expect they will all get the hang of it soon enough. Some of them are also finding their voices, which is hilarious! A very messy but fun time!

> Pups all thriving

Glad to hear it. Well done .

That is just wonderful news.  They certainly will be keeping you very, very busy over the coming weeks, with not much time to think of anything else.

Have you found homes for them yet?  Plenty of time still! 

Good Luck with them.