Sam had his annual booster yesterday. As soon as he got home he started scratching his neck and was out of sorts and depressed. He kept crying and panting and was just not himself at all. We phoned the vet last night as we were worried and were told that it was not unusual and to keep him quiet.  As long as he was eating and drinking which he was and to see how he was the next day. Sam is a bit better this mornng but still looking rather sad. I was just wondering if anyone else has ever encountered a problem like this as we've had dogs for nearly 30 years and have never known this to happen. I would be grateful for your thoughts.

Jabs worry me i know we have to have them but this is my sisters story

She hand reared some puppies for someone as the mum had died in whelp, she got them to 8 weeks old and happily trotted off to the vets for their jabs, vet checked them over said good healthy puppies of good weight and size and jabbed them both, within an hour one little one started foaming at the mouth and fitting, rushed back to vets to be told she had had a allergic reaction to the jab and she died on the table, the other puppy was perfectly fine no reaction what so ever.

So some dogs it does effect alot more than others i believe, not all dogs are the same.

Hope Sam is feeling better now tho x

I myself do not any longer have annual boosters, if a dog is going into kennels it would be best if you do. A lot of dogs have died after the constant annual booster injection. I personally feel it is another vet con. I told my daughter to do a lot of research before having her large akita's booster. She trusted the vets word, the dog came home fell of his legs. he could not drink or eat he was very ill, she spent 7days in tears. She thought she was going to loose him. She said she wished she had listerned.I did not make my decision lightly.
I have the puppy injections. I would not have my child boostered every year, I feel it is the same.
More Castrated dogs can get an adverse reaction to vaccinations.

Denese

If your really concerned I would take him to the vets. Our girl had a bad reaction to an injection when she was a pup, got an infection and ended up having a operation to remove a mass of tissue from her neck then another to op to put a drain is as the infection wasn't clearing.

Think this is quite rare though and I'm pleased to say she has had no more reactions since. Hope Sam is back to his usual self soon.

Yes, and you need to keep a close eye on your dog even though he may be a little better today.  I had a young 3 year old die from an adverse reaction to his booster.

I don't booster my dogs now, they have titre tests and/or homeopathic nosodes.

I hope your boy is feeling better soon, and it is worth knowing that once a dog reacts to a booster he is more likely to react again. 

How is sam doing?

Hope Sam is doing ok,
dont know if anyone else has mentioned it but the OP should make sure the vet does an 'adverse reaction' report and sends it off.
Chris

sorry but are we all talking about the same jab here iv had my Rottie since 8 weeks and my bully both are 4 this year i had their jabs as normal when pups and they have yearly boosters which are due now, arrent these jabs ment to protect from pavo virus and wouldnt the risk of not having them be more so than if you have them?
im a bit worried at what to do now for the best vets of course are not going to tell you NOT to do it anymore than child health advisers would NOT tell you to not have your childs MMR dispite the scare of the Autisum link yet when they wanted to do my sons mmr pre school booster i asked if they'd sign a statement to state that my son would not regress any further into himself (he is Autistic but on the lower end of the spectrum) they refused telling me they couldnt promise that he wouldnt get any worse, so i refused the mmr booster for my son,
but back to the dogs whats the best thing to booster or not to booster thats my question :-)

I read EVERYTHING I could find on the net before making up my own mind, I also questioned a lot of experienced people - there's a lot out there and some very good articles.   The move against yearly boostering was started in America by VETS! 

A search on CDs should throw up lots of info and a few websites to read ;) then you will know what your looking for on the WWW

No-one can tell you what to do for the best - you have to make up your own mind ;) 

Thanks for your replies. Took Sam to the vets this morning as he is still not himself. He has a temperature and has been scratching his neck so that is now very sore. He has had an anti inflammatory injection and is having Piriton tablets and has to see the vet again on Friday. The vet is going to tell the drug company as they like to be told of any bad reactions that occur. She also said that normally reactions like this only happen to small breed dogs so it is unusual in a golden. 

> She also said that normally reactions like this only happen to small breed dogs so it is unusual in a golden.

I think ANY dog can react to a vaccine, when i was a vet nurse i only see 2 really bad reactions (lifethreatening) and both were rotties, of which i have 10!   One of my girls had a reaction on her year old booster and has since never been jabbed again.
Now after lots of researching and peoples experiences my own dogs get their puppy jabs and thats it, i dont believe they need yearly boosters but thats just my opinion.

Obviously someone who has lost a dog through a disease that could have been protected by vaccine would probably have a different opinion, i think it depends on your own experiences as to what you feel is best for your own dog.

I personally dont jab my puppies until 9 weeks old either as i feel any younger can interfere with what mum has already given them, others will disagree...again each persons own opinion.

Obviously someone who has lost a dog through a disease that could have been protected by vaccine would probably have a different opinion, i think it depends on your own experiences as to what you feel is best for your own dog.

very true i had a Rottie many years ago that came to me at aged 6 months as the owner couldnt afford to keep her anymore i was told she had her jabs so i did the booster and she  ended up getting pavo anyway at about 2 years old, she was very ill was in vets 3 weeks with it on a drip she was, and everyday i would ring and they would say no change no change i realy thought we were going to lose her but she pulled thu thank god,

i was told at the time that she probebley never had the first set of jabs as a puppy and that made the booster not do its job as such, much later on when she was all better i see the mum of the boy  who i had her off and she told me that she had infact NOT had the first jabs as a pup cos they never had the money to do it, i was mad as hell with him, as if he had been honest with me when i took her on i would have gladly have got them done but i think he was worried the extra expense would put me off having her which would not have been the case on my part id have had her anyway as she was a beutiful dog with wonderful temprament,

anyway im not sure i trust in vets as i used to after their harrasment toward me and all the rubbish reasons i heard from them about getting my 7 month old bullys bits chopped off as when i quoted some facts i got from here on the affects of early neutring of a dog they looked at me with this look as if they new they had been caught out, and i sounded like i new what i was talking about from then i heard nothing from them i think i had them stummped what could they say as my facts were RIGHT!!
So i dont have much trust in some vets these days im affraid,

Mandy what would happen with the insurance if you don't have the booster vaccination?

apart from one or two notorious companies insurance should cover everything except any illness which vacination would/should have prevented.
Chris

She also said that normally reactions like this only happen to small breed dogs so it is unusual in a golden. 

My 3 year old dog that died was a golden, if you look for info on adverse reactions there are lots of goldens and lots of gsd's.  No breed is exempt, so your vet doesn't have the correct facts.

If your dog is no better then you do need to seek a second opinion, adverse reactions which are treated with more chemicals over a period are likely to get worse, your dog needs blood tests and you need to get the batch codes of the vaccine used on her checked to make sure they are all in specification, fromt he suppliers and the vets.

You also need to see the report that your vet is sending to report an adverse reaction, don't just take their word for it that it has been sent, you need a copy.

I hope your boy starts to improve soon.

Mandy what would happen with the insurance if you don't have the booster vaccination

Most reputable companies would cover for any illness other than what the vaccination would have helped protect.

chelzeagirl,
Only my opinion but! would you have had the mmr booster every year? the injections make the body form antibodies to fight the infection, so
surly keep injecting in the bacteria is going to cause an adverse reaction! if there was an outbreak you might contemplate having a booster. Most of us had a polio injection as a child we would not have the injection every year. If there was an outbreak, then we might have a booster. Now there is very few dogs that roam it has reduced the risks of the infections from other dogs, if they have be vacanated. But wild life can still cause a threat. If any dog goes in to kennels it is always advisable to have a booster also the kennel cough vaccinated. Just like if we went to a country which has other diseases that we would need to be vaccinated against it. You can bambard the body with to much. The computer is the biggest library in the world. Do your home work on it of anything that you do not feel at ease with. Check the pros and cons.

Denese

Thanks everyone for your interest. I've just come back from the vets. Sam has still got a temperature and is a bit up and down and just not himself, his neck is quite bad with eczema where the injection went in. The drug company has been informed only on the basis of how this new medication will react with the booster. I did jokingly ask if they will pay for the treatment but to no avail. So far £100 on top of the booster cost. Sam keeps shaking his head all the time I suppose it's the irritation poor thing. Chris and Perry I've spoken to Tesco and you're right about the cover so that's good, I'll maybe think again next year about having the booster. He has to go back to the vet on Monday so I'll let you know how he is then. Have a lovely weekend everyone.

Hi D no i wouldn't i didnt let my son have his pre school mmr jab as he was dianosed with Autisum and although i dont want to jump on that band waggon with all the hype of the mmr being a cause of Autisum , i am 100%  certin and that i did lose a pice of my son after the first jab i have records of his progress from birth more than what other parents have as he was part of a study at our local hospital for low birth weight babies and because of this he had many many more visits and test on his abiliy and how he progressed than any normal baby would have, and the change in him was VERY obvious and it all kicked in after the first mmr jab, i could show you photos of this happy laughing baby and camcorder footage of him in fits of giggles with that really hearty laugh babies have and he was saying his first words to, then he had the jab and from the day he had it he woke screaming had bad bowl movements then got mild measles and he never looked the same again not like the smilie baby we had before he didnt smile laugh or talk again after that day, he didnt say mummy till he was 4 years old, when before the jab doctors have writen that his was saying mum da and button . he used to sit in his highchair eating spagitte bolenase and fish and potato pie and peas i have it all on film after that jab he would just tho his food across the floor and would and still now only eat very dry foods nothing wet no sauces no beans mostly bread and anything red would have him in a screaming fit which would go on ALLDAY long , he cant even sit near you if you have something he dont like on yourown plate, eating out he will put the menu in front of him as he cant look at what you have we once had to get him a table on his own in harvester as he couldnt stand sitting with us when our dinners come out, so i did not give him the booster as i was scared id loose him completly if i did,

How awful, There is more reactions to drugs, jabs, than people think. I also have bad reactions to drugs. I really feel for you. Your poor boy. I know how hard it is to look after a handicapped child I have one. I can understand exactly how you feel.
God bless you.

Denese  

> dianosed with Autisum

Poor you, I do feel for you both. I have taught many children with Autism but at the end of the day, someone else takes them home. I take my hat off to you. I'm sure your son will give you much joy and I hope all your dogs are 'easy' ones. x

How is Sam today?

Thank you for asking, he is a bit up and down but so much better than last week. He has to go back to the vet on Friday just for a check up and perhaps another course of antibiotics depends how he is. 

Hi Ange

Sorry to hear that he is still up and down, this seems to be what happens when a dog reacts to a booster or vaccination.  If your dog has been given steroids then he will feel better when taking them but will relapse afterwards.  Do ask for a second opinion, I cannot stress enough how important this is. .

Don't feel embarrassed about insisting the drug manufacturer pay all costs, and contact the drug company yourslef and insist they pay if they haven't already offered.  It is the vaccine that has caused this and the least they can do is pay for the treatment to help your boy.  When my dog died Virbac (the drug company involved) did pay all costs for treatment for the problems the vaccine caused.

If there is any question about who should or should not pay, you need to be vocal and don't give in, it is totally unfair to expect you to pay for something the vaccine has caused.

Good luck and I hope your boy makes a full and speedy recovery.

Good luck with your boy and I wish him a full and speedy recovery.

 

Hi Perry,  Sam is on Synulox until Friday and a drug called Prednisolone until next Monday I think that is a steroid but I could be wrong. Thank you for your advice I'm not very good at questioning professionals but I am seeing someone new on Friday so I might just do that. I think my husband may be working at home that day so I could get him to come along with us for support.

If your not having a booster vac you can always have a titre blood test to see if the dog still has antibodies against the various diseases, (if not then you could decide from there)

Sam is on Synulox until Friday and a drug called Prednisolone until next Monday I think that is a steroid

Ange, yes prednisolone is a steroid.  When I suggested asking for a second opinion, I really meant to ask for a referral to a specialist rather than a vet at the practice, just someone with more experience of adverse reactions.  I would phone the vets in the morning, ask for a referral ASAP so tomorrow or the day after, and yes a good idea to take your OH with you, don't forget you are paying these people so they are actually working for you, so ask any questions and insist on getting the best for your boy.

Hi Ange, so pleased he is on the mend, keep us updated can you please

I've just been to the vets again. Sam is still not himself I thought that he'd be right by now. His temperature is higher than it was last Friday. They have upped his steroids as he has started scratching his neck area again and they have changed his antibiotics he's having antirobe  starting tonight.  

Hi Ange
Just wondering how Sam is? Is he over his bad reaction and any joy from the drug company?

I too only allow my dogs to have their puppy jabs but I do worry from time to time if this is a sensible course of action. Reading through this thread I have stopped wavering so much. It was a comment from John Burns (of Burns dog food) who used to be a vet himself -  he said he believed the puppy vaccines give immuntity for life (well this is what he said several years back and I can only assume he feels the same way now) that made me  look into this more and ultimately turn my back on annual boosters. I would be interested to know if anyone out there having titre tests done instead of the booster (having allowed their dogs to have the puppy vaccine) has ever had a result showing a lack of immuntity ?

Re the MMR - I know we have now been told once and for all, that the vaccine has no link to autism etc. but you only have to read the heartbreaking account from chelzeagirl to realise it is not so cut and dried. My two youngest have not had their MMR and I feel guilty on the one hand and vindicated on the other.... no win situation really but I feel abstaining is the lesser of the two evils.

you really need to urgently get a second opinion from a specialist ASAP!! Steroids will only mask the symptoms and will not cure whats going on underneath.
I dont mean to scare you but dogs have died after having symptoms exactly as you describe and being treated how your dog is.
please please please asked to be referred to a specialist.

Sam is much improved. His last visit to the vets was 28 Aug. It seemed that every time I took him his temperature would be up again. He's been off the tablets since the 28th  and is back to normal I would say.   The vets have made a note not to inject in his neck and whenever possible in the future to give him tablets and not injections.

I would be interested to know if anyone out there having titre tests done instead of the booster (having allowed their dogs to have the puppy vaccine) has ever had a result showing a lack of immuntity ?

Flash, saluki, 5 years old, titred for the third time this year, always full immunity for everything.
Jesse, American cocker,2 years old, titred for the first year this year, full immunity.
Troy, Pyrenean Mountain Dog, 9 years old, was titred two years ago, and didn't have enough antibodies for Canine Hepatitis, so was vaccinated.

All my dogs get yearly lepto vaccination.

Vera

>Troy, Pyrenean Mountain Dog, 9 years old, was titred two years ago, and didn't have enough antibodies for Canine Hepatitis

That's interesting. What was his vaccination regime as a puppy? Did he have the full puppy course and the first booster (which is what some people suggest is all that's needed for lifelong protection)? Had he been titred previously with a satisfactory result?

Jeangenie my GR is due for a booster next feb her 3rd year.
I am thinking of not having it done as there are other ways it can be done.
By titred you mean blood tests every year for amunity? or i have seen every 3yrs for booster.
Could you put me right on this please.
Thankyou in advance.

One of my Spanish that I bred and rehomed at 8 years (to another SWD owner whose old Spanish stopped eating and playing when his lifelong playmate died) was titre tested at 9 years and the vet said that it was just under the recommended result, so she was re-vaccinated.  She had only ever had her puppy vaccine.

>By titred you mean blood tests every year for amunity? or i have seen every 3yrs for booster.

I'm not really the right person to ask because I always have my dogs boosted annually for lepto and every three years for the DHP part.

If I was considering titre testing to determine immunity I would do it every year. Lurchergirl's post certainly suggests that immunity is not lifelong after the initial puppy course and 1st-year booster.

Thanks so much lurchergirl for that info, it is much appreciated. (sorry I still don't know how to quote someone else's post lol) Thanks also perrodeagua, that is reassuring.

Thanks for your reply.
Is Eurican LP for Lepto only...if so that is what they have now.

I was under the impression that titer testing was not really worthwhile. Whilst I am no expert, I thought that immunity was a variable i.e a weak titer test one week and repeated two weeks later a strong result could be yielded. That's certainly what my vet advised me anyway. Am sure this has been discussed before....maybe I should read some of the older posts :)

>I thought that immunity was a variable i.e a weak titer test one week and repeated two weeks later a strong result could be yielded.

Absolutely. Just as a person can have a perfectly normal ECG reading at their doctor's and have a heart attack walking out of the surgery. It's happened.

I've never understood, for a disease as serious as rabies, that annual or biannual titre tests aren't required for the Pet Passport. After the first one you never know if a booster has failed in the interim.

> I personally dont jab my puppies until 9 weeks old either as i feel any younger can interfere with what mum has already given them, others will disagree...again each persons own opinion.

I'm with you on mum's antibodies.  I don't have my toy breed puppy vacs until 12 weeks, and my vet is careful not to argue the point, although I'm sure he disagrees.

>Troy, Pyrenean Mountain Dog, 9 years old, was titred two years ago, and didn't have enough antibodies for Canine Hepatitis<

That's interesting. What was his vaccination regime as a puppy? Did he have the full puppy course and the first booster (which is what some people suggest is all that's needed for lifelong protection)? Had he been titred previously with a satisfactory result?

I have no idea about his puppy vaccinations as we adopted him at 2 1/2 years old as a rescue dog. I suspect he had the full course, but then the vaccinations lapsed as he wasn't up to date with vaccinations when we got him. He then got vaccinated by us yearly for 4 years until I decided to titre... It was the only time he was titred, so I don't know about his immunity status before or after! He has been vaccinated again since, and is now on the three-yearly protocol.

Vera

Lurchergirl's post certainly suggests that immunity is not lifelong after the initial puppy course and 1st-year booster.
I wouldn't necessarily come to that conclusion. It is a well known fact that not all dogs gain full immunity after vaccination! It may well be the case that Troy would have tested the same a few days after a vaccination. In fact, he was tested just a year after the previous vaccinations! That's why a dog needs a titre for rabies after the vaccination for the pet passport as not all vaccinations take properly!

Having said that though, just because the titre doesn't show enough antibodies doesn't necessarily mean the dog is not protected. There are also memory cells that kick into action when a dog gets infected... and that's something that can't be measured!!! So titre is not really testing for immunity as such, but simply for antibodies present in the blood, which might not be the same. (E.g. if a dog that has full immunity never comes into contact with the disease, there won't be any antibodies... so the titre would show as not enough immunity, eventhough the memory cells would activate when coming into contact with the disease!). So if there are enough antibodies, you can be sure that dog's immunity is fine, but not enough antibodies doesn't necessarily mean that there is not enough immunity. So titres are a good indication (and reassurance when enough antibodies), but no more than that.

Vera

I was under the impression that titer testing was not really worthwhile. Whilst I am no expert, I thought that immunity was a variable i.e a weak titer test one week and repeated two weeks later a strong result could be yielded. That's certainly what my vet advised me anyway. Am sure this has been discussed before....maybe I should read some of the older posts 
Absolutely correct, but it is the best option we have at the moment for a dog that should not be vaccinated more than necessary due to health issues (in my case autoimmune problems).

Vera

I absolutely understand Vera :) I hope you didn't think I was being rude with my reply.

I choose not to booster vaccinate my dogs (initially due to having a dog with epilepsy and discussing with my vet the risk of continued boosters for an "unhealthy" animal).

I did look into titer testing but my vet strongly advised it to be a wasted procedure in his mind given the level of variation in results. My vet is actually very supportive of my decision not to booster  :)

>So titres are a good indication (and reassurance when enough antibodies), but no more than that.

Exactly, low antibodies on a titre do not mean a dog is not immune but many will take that to mean a vac is required.

The titre test was designed to be used as a measurement of the immune response, meaning a good immune response, 4-fold or more circulating antibodies measured by titre after vac can be taken to indicate good memory cell stimulation and that represents a reasonable measure of immunity for that dog which may last many, many years.  It's the memory cells and the immune response that determines immunity.

However, a sufficient number of circulating antibodies measured by titre after vac, say 1, 2, 3 years or longer, can be taken to indicate that the dog has had a reasonable memory cell stimulation in the recent past, whether by vac or natural exposure, and therefore is most likely immune. 

If there is not a sufficient number of circulating antibodies and no previous tests on record to indicate that the dog has had a strong immune response previously, I take it within 5 years, it would be wise to vac again. 

But like I say to everyone, it is each individual's personal choice to how much research they do and how they then ultimately decide to protect their dog. 

i do so agree with you,my dogs have never had boosters after their puppy jabs,but then,they never go in kennels,mostkennels insist on up to date jabs,dont they?i wonder how many poor dogs have been ill after boosters,and the connection not made?

colliepam,
I know of a westie that died after being called for another annual booster, lives local, they were devastated, they had had him from Westie rescue so he had been castrated. My daughters American Akita was sent for, for his booster. (He hasn't been castrated) I did give her my advice. She had him boosted, she nearly lost him, he is a big boy and could not stand or drink or eat just lay there.  Her Akita's do not go in kennels.  It took him over 2weeks to recover. As you might guess, he isn't having any more.

Denese