with the push for a more diverse show scene , the inclusion of other doggy activities running alongside the show rings and the encouragement that more non showing people will come for a family day out along with their dogs I'm wondering if this means that exhibitors will also be allowed to bring their 'not for competition' dogs along too ? ...perhaps their underage pups for socialisation ? - the dogs they usually leave at home could come along for a day out too thus saving on the cost of dog sitters ? - I'm also wondering about how secure this would be - would this mean the end of security passes ? or would all dogs that come through the gates have  to be issued with  a pass even if they have just come to watch -

...or would it be one rule for the general public and another for exhibitors i.e you could have someone with a 'pet'  3 month old pup watching round the ringside with his owners but not an exhibitors pup ? - the GP's dogs could come in for free but exhibitors would have to pay for their NFC dogs ? ...and only their dogs would need passes -

I don't think the KC have really thought this through !

Yvonne

That was just how it was at East of England, and I know many exhibitors felt a bit resentful having forked out plenty in entries to make the show.

Now that I have my hubby who is my driver and go-fer I am realising how many shows expect you to pay for accompanying adults, this means having to enter two dogs, and some shows three to get two passes. 

We are often told to not leave our dogs unattended, yet have to pay extra to bring in helpers.

and ...another thought ....how fair would it be for the GP to pay under £10.00 for entry to the show ( the average cost for entry ot an Agricultural show ) and be able to take as many dogs as they liked for 'have a go events' yet the exhibitor is expected to pay upwards of £20 for each dog THEY enter ?

I think that if the future of dogs shows means that they turn into 'fun for all events' then the whole pricing structure and regulations should be altered to ensure a fairer playing field for all.

Yvonne

I think the point of it being over £20, which is usually for a championship show, is because your entering classes with CC's. Perhaps the pricing is set like this to keep class numbers down, after all if we could enter a championship show at £5 per class everyone would be having a go and then perhaps the organisers would struggle to find judges willing to judge a whole day of 50+ classes. Dont get me wrong i think its a lot of money to enter a show, but i think if they do aim the dog showing more at the general public this price will instantly put them off entering.

Another point to this, please correct me if i am wrong, but i believe that not for competition dogs can only be "entered" if they have a kennel club pedigree number? My jack russell is registered with the kennel club on their activities register and can compete at agility & flyball, they are happy to take our money for that, yet when it comes to having a day out when i compete my pedigree dog, she has to stay at home. I dont really think this is fair either, although i'm sure there are those that will disagree saying that shes not from pure lines etc. Well i rescued her as a stray, i didn't intentionally breed her, and i dont understand why shes not allowed a day out with us!

I like the idea of having the shows more open to the general public, the problem with dog showing is that is is monopolised by "aging" people who have been showing dogs since day dot, when someone young and new comes along they all gather together making judgement on their dog for a few hours before they have the neck to come and speak and even then its only to find out information! believe i know i'm experiencing it! The fact is dog showers are not happy with change, they like their structured days showing where they go along and know every other competitor in their class and know which dogs theirs can beat and then have a good old bitch later if it doesn't! If this was to change, it would obviously upset them, there would more new up & comings to threaten their status and perhaps even challenge their dogs! I think its what dog showing needs, after all i think if your all honest wouldn't it be nice to see some new faces taking some of the prizes?

to carinag

I totally understand the point that you are making.  Newbies are not always given the best of receptions.

Even if you have had dogs for years, and then go into a new breed, this happens more often than it should.

Don't you think it is simply being new anywhere being at a new job school etc, people are most comfortable with those they know, many have a wait and see approach to new people, may be shy themselves.  Unfortunately it usually means the new person has to make the effort without being too pushy.

I know in my breed we are crying out for new people and many of us try to make new people welcome, (others are comfortable within a small circle of old friends) and of course some of it may seem as if your on a mission to find things out, else how do you get to know people :D

It's human nature.

You just have to remember we were all new once, and if you ask around and make your own enquiries you may find the most welcoming are the really old hands and it is the nearly new are the ones that feel threatened by the new person with a good dog (the old hands in it for the long haul have had their god runs and not so good runs and take it on the chin).

> You just have to remember we were all new once, and if you ask around and make your own enquiries you may find the most welcoming are the really old hands and it is the nearly new are the ones that feel threatened by the new person with a good dog (the old hands in it for the long haul have had their god runs and not so good runs and take it on the chin).

Oh so true

> You just have to remember we were all new once, and if you ask around and make your own enquiries you may find the most welcoming are the really old hands and it is the nearly new are the ones that feel threatened by the new person with a good dog (the old hands in it for the long haul have had their god runs and not so good runs and take it on the chin).

I didn't so much change breeds as acquired a new one when I bought my first show Beardie, not only was she successful & gained her title at a time when there were 40, 50, 60 in classes(unlike now)but the"top"people continued to show their best bitches under judges that had already given them CCs. There are judges & exhibitors who "play"the game of judging friends & entering under friends to ensure they win, but not everyone is the same.

If all the "oldies"keep out the new people, how do exhibitors like Mike Gadsby become successful, Mike isn't an oldie by any stretch of the imagination & he was a newbie at one time too.

It can be very difficult in very competitive breeds like Cavaliers, Labradors, Goldens, Border Collies, who still have very high entries, but new people do win & are helped by "mentors"within the breed.

Is success so very important to you, carinag ? Is it the be all & end all ? Surely not ? Yes I enjoyed showing my dogs, but more important I love being owned by them. My Champion & show winning dogs mean no more to me than any other dog that has owned me before or after

Was talking to one of my friend's who's a club secretary about this recently. She was telling me that all clubs will have been sent "Spectator Dog" forms but it is up to them if they use them at their shows. This happened at Blackpool this year, the public could pay £2.00 per dog to fetch it into the show ground.

Must admit I did start to get annoyed when I found out about the set up at East of England but ,when I looked at it logically, realised it was no different to entering a show in with an agricultural show, like Bakewell.

I think this is going to be the future of showing, but agree it's unfair that exhibitors have to pay NFC entries.

I agree with MM - yes perhaps my boy might have been made up if I was a 'face', but winning a CC, 2 Firsts at Crufts, his ShCM and numerous high awards at top shows, and he is a Cavalier so from one of these numerous breeds, shows that you can win with a good enough dog.

What do people think about paying to bring youngsters ie 4 month old puppy to a show NFC just to get it socialised..I would welcome the opportunity to do so.

> Is success so very important to you, carinag ? Is it the be all & end all ? Surely not ? Yes I enjoyed showing my dogs, but more important I love being owned by them. My Champion & show winning dogs mean no more to me than any other dog that has owned me before or after

Hi Moonmaiden,
No success is definatley not what i'm after, i know full well i dont stand a chance of getting placed with my puppy, i do the shows for fun & as i willingly tell any of the more experienced show people who come asking, i'm only doing showing to get him used to the atmosphere for when his old enough to compete at agility. My breed is a border collie a breed which you said yourself can be difficult. At our first show i had a fellow competitor (he was in our class too) say my boy was gangly! Well gangly he may be but his my gangly & i love him! Alls i was trying to illustrate is how difficult it can be for a newbie to be accepted into the showing circuit, yet this is really what showing is crying out for else it could all fade away and die with the current veterans that have the monopoly of it!

Today i went to "Paws in the park" a very public show, yet we had a great time, there were loads of different activites to have a go at with the dogs and we had a thoroughly good day out. I dont think it would hurt for some of the bigger shows to mix a little of this fun into the seriousness of showing just to lighten the scene a little. x

> My breed is a border collie a breed which you said yourself can be difficult. At our first show i had a fellow competitor (he was in our class too) say my boy was gangly!

Which I presume you took as a critizm ? Perhaps they were just giving their opinion about your puppy. I did show one of my ISDS dogs for a while & oddly enough he was quite successful(before BCs had CCs & back then the classes were as big as they are today if not bigger) I had people ask about using him on their KC only reg bitches I refused as eye testing was not the norm for KC BCs back then & any faults in his puppies would be down to him !! I was given all sorts of advice on how to show him stacked/fingers behind the ears etc However I have always shown all my dogs free standing. We all like to think our dogs are good examples of the breed & in our eyes they are, but when compared to the breed standard & the interpretation the judge sees as correct they often are not.

For example my Wu constructionally is correct, however he has a split face & semi erect ears(correct for the breed standard, but interpreted by most judges as incorrect as they are not tipped like a Rough/Smooth collie)he is also bang on for size, but actually dwarfs the show dogs(as opposed to bitches)because the current trend is for males under 21"at the shoulder. So before he was even touched by 99% of CC judges he would be on a hiding to nothing, do I get upset ? Nope because he is all that I want in a BC-the same applies for my other male Rjj, who is an ISDS smooth, I've been told by an All Rounder(who gives CC in BCs !)that the smooth BC should be a separate breed as they are nothing like the rough(described by them as the longcoated)in structure & type & that my boy would never be able to work sheep ! one judge I would never show any dog under !

Oh Dyane what a twit of a judge and I don't care who it is he obviously knows nothing of sheep work.

I have to say I have always felt welcome as a newbie...
and I'm a newbie who shows an bitch I imported so we are double newbies :D. Unknown owner and dog...
No mentor in the breed either so we often stand alone, just me and the dog :) which I think helps as people find it easier to come and chat.

Every show I have gone to an "oldie" in the breed has come to chat and help.
I'm not silly, I know some of them are there as they are nosey but is it not normal to want to see who and what?
When I go to a show, I too look at the dogs there and judge them against to the ideal I have in my head, I would actually love people to tell me what they think of my girl as it helps to hear what other people see and learn from people more experienced - Although some probably have not been, listening to what they say :)...
I have been told I was not placed where I should have been(showing a friends dog) and not to give up and come again by a total stranger( a breeder in the breed)! Surely this is not an attitude of somebody who wants to keep it all to themselves :).
I have also been told I will be last and how the rest will be placed(others are well know by the judge) before the ring.
I looked at the placings and agreed on the judging probably not being done on the right end of the lead so I have just put the name of the judge behind my ear do not enter under again, not because of our placing but because I think they have forgotten why they are there and what they are judging :). It happens but less than people say it happens.
When my girl qualified for Crufts (her second show and last chance) I had many people coming to me congratulating us, most we did not know and few we had beaten in the ring...Again made me feel like most do welcome newbies even if they do better than they did :).

I have also met the not so nice "oldies" but I tend to ignore the vibes and the fact they are more than likely talking us down as we go...
You get that everywhere where there is a competitive part of it, some people like to win!

What do people think about paying to bring youngsters ie 4 month old puppy to a show NFC just to get it socialised..I would welcome the opportunity to do so.

that's the kind of thing that would need to be regulated I think - many show people would like to socialise their under 6 months pups but at the moment cannot ( unless it's a club show ) yet the proposed new style dog shows would allow the GP to sit around the rings with theirs ! -

I'm not sure about the whole concept if I'm honest - why should we feel the need to 'offer more' to those that find our hobby on it's own boring - after all I find Golf mind numbingly boring yet my local golf club does not offer Crazy Golf for those that want a 'fun day out' - football matches are not interpersed with 5 a side kickabouts for spectators to 'have a go'  - If I'm honest I would far rather go along to some of the traditional Championship shows such as three Counties and LKA than more shows like Crufts with all it's crowds, pointless trade stands and 'circus acts' with the exhibitor relagated to a supporting role !

The fact that entries have fallen is in my opinion due more to the economic climate than a lack of interest  in our hobby  - personally speaking I do not want my hobby 'dumbed down' to cater for those who who want a fun day out - if they don't like it as it is, then they can go and find another hobby they do like !

Yvonne

I took Ellie to one or two shows at 5 months old, I think it helped a lot so that she was used to the atmosphere before I had to show her.

>personally speaking I do not want my hobby 'dumbed down' to cater for those who who want a fun day out - if they don't like it as it is, then they can go and find another hobby they do like !

totally with you on that one, I dont show alot anymore but thats my choice I do agility and canix because I prefer it - I wouldnt want agility and canix to be run alongside a champ show !!