Hi,

A quick story. I have 2 male CKCS who are 1 and 2 they are from different litters and have always been best friends.......except when they have a tiff!
I consulted 2 different vets and a behaviourist who all say they need to be kept seperately and we have implemented lots of the hints and tips they gave us and thought it was resolved but then they had another fight over the weekend :-(

It is manageable when my husband is at home but when he is at work it is just me and the children and the last huge fight I had to ask my 5 year old to help me seperate them which is definantly not a situation I ever want to be in again.
Are there any really good books/websites where I can get any more tips?
I cannot re-home either as they are part of our family but I really need to get this sorted as its not possible to keep them seperately.

Thanks

Very unusual for Cavaliers to fall out although I have known it happen. I' not aware of any books I'm afraid. I had a Golden Retriever who took a dislike to one of my Cavaliers and I had to keep them separate for 11 years until the Golden died -the Cavalier never, ever even tried to fight back but it made no difference. In our case it worked fine to have them separate but I know it isn't always possible. Likewise I also had a Cavalier bitch who kept attacking the two male Cavaliers and in the end I had to give up with her and find her a home as a single pet as all the dogs were unhappy because of her -including she herself. Sometimes it's the only thing to do because we have to put the dogs first and make sure they are all happy. Always being on edge expecting fights is very stressful for humans and dogs alike. Has your vet suggested trying medication? Zylkene might be worth a try, it certainly won't do any harm.

Is that the drug that mimics castration?

No, Zylkene is a non-drug treatment for anxiety and stress - it's based on milk protein.

Zylkene information

if they are kept separately, how did they fight?

does it just come down to re-evaluating and tightening up the management controls?

did you follow the advice about keeping them separate?

if not, how come?

or, if they are kept separately, how did they fight?

did they slip past the barriers? does that mean just tightening up the management?

We had a behaviourist out to assess why they were fighting as at first it was over possessions then attention then completely random. At the time the behaviourist advised to keep them seperated whilst we were not in the house or at mealtimes etc. When I first discussed this with the original vet they advised trying a course of the drug that mimics castration to see whether this had an impact but then it calmed down and we went a few months with no problems at all so he advised to leave it and then we moved house so we changed vets and the new vet recommends castrating the both of them....

I have to date always followed the advice I have been given by the behaviourist and although he lives quite a way from us now we are in contact via email and telephone. He is advising speaking to the breeder about taking one of them back which is where we disagree as I cannot do this :-(

In an ideal world we would have full control over the management of keeping them seperated but;
1) I have a toddler and a 5 year old who unfortunately don't do as they are told 100% of the time ;-)
2) Our house is not big enough to house 2 dogs seperately :-(

They got into a fight when we were all around which is when they were allowed to be together. We have sussed out who is top dog and we have further enforced that so i'm really suprised at their latest fight!
I have already spoken to the breeder about the problem and she has no further advice for us other than what we have been given.

I'm sure you understand as you are all dog owners that our dogs are part of the family and just as with our children I think you will always come up against trying times and therefore we are 100% committed to trying anything to help them be friends or tolerate each other. There is nothing worse than when we are all together and they start the growling which then leads to the lunging, I make sure the children now know to step away from the situation and not to intervene and they are not to scream etc which will make the situation worse so now they calmly walk away and go into a room where they can close the door. I have no worries that the dogs would harm them in any way but this is again just advice from the behaviourist.

>the new vet recommends castrating the both of them....

The usual advice is to castrate the lower-ranking dog, to make their status difference greater; the theory is that then the lower-rankiker is less challenging than when he was entire. Castrating both won't change the difference between them at all. If rehoming one or keeping them permanently separated are not options then perhaps you could either use Tardak (the injection that mimics castration) or castrate the lower-ranking one first and see if things have improved in a few months down the line.

thanks for the reply

i wondered if the kids had left a door open?
tricky one that.
have you tried stairgates?

i have 3 big dogs in a 1 bed house, so they can fit
you may need to move furniture?
did the behaviourist give you any house layout advice - thats what i tend to do

when you say you have established who is top dog, how have you done this?
was that the behaviourist?

sometimes dog fights can be due to human rank intervention, when the dogs have sorted things out for themselves.
one example is people feel the first dog in the home os the top dog, which isn't how it work.
often its not a case of one is top and one is lower, it can change according to circumstance and situation.

what sort of behaviourist do you use?

The usual advice is to castrate the lower-ranking dog, to make their status difference greater; the theory is that then the lower-rankiker is less challenging than when he was entire

I'd say this is always worth a try, nothing to lose if they're not show dogs, but in our case with the Golden taking a dislike to the Cavalier, neutering the Cavalier made no difference at all sadly.

Thanks for the replies :-)

Yes I think I will speak to our new vet about the tardak trial (couldn't remember the name of it before ;-) )
It reall isn't possible to keep them seperate in the house (townhouse with very odd layout) and with the children running all over the house all the time stairgates are not possible to live with. The way we have to seperate them is one in a crate (who we think is the lower ranking) when we are out and eating.
It was always the younger one starting the fights and we thought he was top dog but the behaviourist advised us that it was in fact the elder quieter of the 2 and that he didn't start the fights as he was more sure of his status????
The elder one doesn't growl but just lunges when he has had enough of the younger one growling etc (although this is seconds not minutes) as we think his tolerance of the situation is becoming less and less. I have to say that since they started these fights they have been allowed no toys/treats/attention from us and what used to be an enjoyable time in our home is now very strained for everyone and I noticed (and mentioned to the vet) that since all of this they have lost weight which she said may be due to stress of the situation so I may try the other remedy mentioned to help with that.
Am I being selfish not rehoming one? I don't want to do anything that is not right for them but I can't help but hope that we may be able to resolve this.

> Yes I think I will speak to our new vet about the tardak trial (couldn't remember the name of it before ;-) )

Tardak is not the same as physical castration as it is composed of progestogen & does not stop the production of testosterone & only lasts for 3/4 weeks before it needs renewing which IMHO isn't long enough to decide it castration will be of positive use.

Suprelorin on the other hand mimics physical castration & lasts for a minimum of 6 months a period which is long enough to see the long term affect of physical castration & allows for physical castration towards the end of the 6 months meaning any changes in behaviour will be retained.

Tardak is cheaper but needs to be given more than once to assess any effect castration may have on your dog

Thank you again :-)

How long should I "trial" this option before opting for castration?
If the behaviour gets worse would you then "trial" it on the other dog?

> In an ideal world we would have full control over the management of keeping them seperated but;
> 1) I have a toddler and a 5 year old who unfortunately don't do as they are told 100% of the time ;-)
> 2) Our house is not big enough to house 2 dogs seperately :-(
>

> He is advising speaking to the breeder about taking one of them back which is where we disagree as I cannot do this :-(
>

For the dogs sakes and the children's safety this really is your only option, let the breeder find a home for the younger one.

The dogs are really too close in age and status which is why they are fighting, castrating both would change nothing.

Can you really face trying to keep them apart for the next 10 years, this could make everyone unhappy.

Can I just ask are they fighting with noise and teeth or are they actually drawing blood and really going for it?

I agree with Brainless that the ages are not far enough apart, so there are bound to be the odd heirarchy issues if both feel equal for the top spot and have no give and take. I also agree that if you do not have a home that can accomodate seperation, with a toddler and a 5 year old the breeder may be the better option. Think on that.

I've never known this breed to be anything but accomodating of one another so it is unusual even with a close age gap for this to happen, they must both have very alpha tendancies, very unfortunate and very unlucky you chose a usually placid and happy go lucky breed. It is very said it has turned out like this.

But back to my question, how bad is the fighting? Dogs often make the most horrendous noises, snarl and move aggressively often nose to nose with teeth bared, even nip at each other but they don't actually hurt one another, this is the most usual way for dogs jostling for the top spot to behave and very common, it can seem very frightening. If this is happening eventually it will calm down it is how they judge one anothers will and power, as one will realise the other is the more powerful or even more willful, personally I wouldn't give either the man made top spot at this age, too young to tell, often we can decipher the alpha and the other dog is just being stubborn to challenge so we can help to support the Alpha, but at these close ages I wouldn't actually be calling it myself yet.  ;-)

If they are drawing blood there really is not much anyone can do, if you wish to still keep them, they need to be kept seperate, maybe in another year it could settle, maybe.......... apart from the advice a behaviourist has already given, it will need to be a wait and see game, when they have both grown up one may give way to the other.

Not much help I know but with things like this you can't force it, it is down to the individual dogs personalities and until fully mature it's hard to tell. Just keep them apart as best you can.

Thanks :-)

They have never been "allowed" to draw blood as I have always intervened as I don't want to see them hurt each other. There is more than a year between them but I realise that the age gap is quite small. I don't want to appear like someone who went out and bought 2 dogs with no prior knowledge, I have always owned dogs (these are my first cavvies) and we researched both the breed and breeder prior to getting the first and he was like a dream and so good around every dog he ever encountered.....then we got number 2!
There was an incident a month or so ago where my hubby dropped them off at the kennels prior to a holiday and an aggressive dog tried to attack them and my hubby says that they were very protective of each other so it gave me more hope that things could return to "normal".
99% of the time they are best friends and if you saw them you wouldn't imagine they could ever fight. I do not intervene when they growl as I don't want to frighten them into not growling as I have seen this so many times with rescues and then they lunge without warning :-o
I have a bit of hope from your post Carrington that maybe this "fighting" isn't quite as bad as it seems?
I don't know if this is at all relevent but the eldest has never marked or mounted another dog and in fact as a youngster when we approached another male dog when out walking he would quite often roll over on to the submit postion upon greeting. The youngster however has recently started to mark (only in the garden) and does mount other dogs.

It looks like your older boy has a submissive character and the younger a pushy one, hence the problems as with the smallish age gap the younger feels he is entitled to bid for supremacy as the older one is not a natural leader.

Are you sure it really is fighting rather than rough housing?

A lot of play can be quite full on and used to sort out rank without actual bloodshed so to much intervention may be backfiring, but obviously if a behaviourist has seen them first hand then that is unlikely.

Yes thats why we originally thought the younger one was the one "in charge" but upon observations we were told it was the eldest and that although he doesn't start the "fights" he finishes them (does that make sense?)

I feel so guilty because I have got them both and at the same time I love them both equally and couldn't bear to think about losing one :-(

Is it generally better to have a more pushy one as the elder dog?
Tbh when the younger one came along he was very irritating to the elder forever nipping him etc and the eldest never told him off until this all started and we were told that he has obviously had enough of letting him do what he wants. We tried different diets, extra training classes for the youngest to tire him out, walking them seperately and now they no longer have any treats (which they loved), are fed seperately and we are unable to cuddle/stroke or give them any affection as this is the biggest trigger!!
It was very hard to stop the affection as we love them and as I would hug my children I loved hugging my dogs :-(

Puppies have puppy licence where the adults will generally let them get away with murder, but this eventually runs out sometime by about a year, and then the adults will start to enforce some boundaries if the youngster will not back off. 

I have a horror of a 13 month old who makes her grandmothers life hell, as despite being a big laddish bitch she obviously can't enforce the respect that the youngsters Mum and her own Mum can with simply a look

I only step in if things get a little too out of hand, but allow a good telling off.

Are you sure you didn't step in too soon when the older one was trying to lay down the ground rules, and perhaps if no actual damage is being done he should be allowed to do so????

That makes perfect sense :-)

How would I know when to step in? There is alot of biting of the neck but never any puncture wounds.

> There is alot of biting of the neck but never any puncture wounds.

For my current youngster this is 'play'  don't think her elders like it much and they have had the odd small wound resulting in scabs, but it is still just OTT play as she is/was slow getting self control/bite inhibition.

When she has gone too far the other has retaliated with what looks like a couple of hard cuffs to the neck and some more angry (compared to usual play noises) growls, that is the point I will come in and break things up if the other won't back down despite being told, but you need to treat both the same they both get a verbal ragging from me, something on the lines of 'cut it out now' and I stand in between sending them off in different directions.  Training a stay is useful in this regard as they can both be made to stay apart but together.  Splitting them up where they can't see each other leaves unresolved issues.

Also doing soemthign incompattible with fighting diffuses the situation.

Thing is I know the pissed off sounds compared to the vicious sounded by totally harmless play ones.

A friend of mine has occasional issues with her boys when her girl is in season, or just be foe or after (she doesn't stay in the house when in full season), and has to occasionally knock their heads together and finds they go and forget their argument and commiserate with each other over the bawling out.

How would I know when to step in? There is alot of biting of the neck but never any puncture wounds.

Phew! That is real good news, my advice now is, Leave them be............

This is how they sort out their pecking orders, or as Brainless has already said it may well be rough and noisy play, dogs communicate completely differently to us, have you ever seen two teenage boys wrestle, it's parts fun part testing one another, just the same with dogs, as in people may have a good shouting match at each other to say who is right and who holds the control, dogs use teeth and threatening noise.  If you were to ever watch a pack of wolves in dispute it can sometimes look as though they are about to rip each other to pieces, but it is all noise, eyeballing and teeth no actual contact. Your dogs are doing what dogs do.

Sometimes there is never alltocations, but when there are you need to leave them be to sort it out...... unless blood is drawn then as said previously there is a major problem, allow them to scruff one another to eyeball and snarl, it isn't violence that you are seeing but dog talk and dog behaviour in other words normal. You may feel you are seeing a terrible fight, but there will not be a scratch on either afterwards. :-)

Leave them be unless there is blood or one is really hurt, bet you'll soon see your being frightened for nothing. :-) And as already said by Brainless if there are to be real problems you will learn the different ways they talk to one another what is serious and what is purely a threat.

I would be very surprised if any Cavalier actually bit hard enough to draw blood, they are after all a spaniel rather than a toy breed & most are soft mouthed. My three make an awful lot of noise when they are all playing( they are 9, 8 & 8 months)The youngest one swings the other two around by their ears & the two older ones sound more like GSDs when they play than Cavaliers.

They do have fall outs, but never seen any blood or wounds & none recently. The middle one decided to have a go at my young BC, Wu, in the car, I separate them now as the BC is frightened of him in the car, but there was no actual damage done & Wu is a real wuss.

If there really is no damage being done I would keep out of it & you might find that once they sort themselves out peace will return

Just wondered if you had considered that one of them may have some underlying health related disorder perhaps just starting  and this is making him a bit tetchy. I know there is something that some Cavs suffer from which causes the equivalent of 'headaches'.
Louise

Bearing in mind their ages it sounds like end of puppy license and establishing pecking order rather than any health issue, and I am sure that the Vets visits will have excluded health issues.

I would suggest that as the problems apparently started over resources and was then generalised, (this is very common) that it's not all about "status" or "pack hierarchy" (indeed there is very often not one top dog as was once thought, hence it can be very difficult trying to work out and sort out any kind of pack order, which may or may not exist) and I'd suggest that rather than confusing matters with this aspect, you look at the dogs as individuals relating to each other and learning what they can and can't do with each other via trial and error learning, and associations   :)

If the problem was over resources, it can sometimes be sorted out - but you'd need a good behaviourist and although they can sometimes sort this kind of problem there is no guarantee. Not sure if your first behaviourst was one of the really good ones but if not it might be worth trying one from www.apbc.org.uk

best wishes
Lindsay
x

Thanks :-)

Yes the vets was the first place I visited and there are no underlying health problems. They are both without murmurs and display no symptoms of Syringomyelia. The behaviorist that I used was just through word of mouth but I will have a look at the apbc register as we would need one that could come out and observe and our old one leaves too far away now.
I am now very hopeful that it is just a telling off that sounds worse than it is and when it happens again I will not intervene unless I see things getting out of control.
Should I still withold the treats/affection?

Cant really add much to the advice you have already been given, but... do beware that Tardak CAN have a marked effect on a dogs anxiety/confidence levels and this CAN cause them to become aggressive/more aggressive than they normally are.

I wouldnt recommend anyone use Tardak for this sort of thing, but tried the alternative Suprelorin if your vets felt it might be appropriate (possibly not in this case though).

Thanks. I will speak to another behaviourist and the vet and mention the recommendation :-)

Good luck, do let us know how it goes.

Lindsay
x

It's definitely hopeful that there's no blood being drawn. My Cavalier and American cocker have had a few fights and they really mean it, they've even drawn blood, so unless we are able to supervise we don't let them out together. They are nearly always ok in the park though, haven't had a tiff there for years and years. Like you, I couldn't possibly rehome either of them, but I can only manage it because we have no kids to accidentally let them out and because they are small dogs.

Hi there,

I can totally understand why this is worrying for you, especially with little one's in your family :-(

We have three dogs, a three year old Border Terrier, an 18 month old and a 4 month old Irish Setter.  The Border, however small he is compared to our big bounding Setters, is most definately the boss.  When we had Ruby the 18 month old and then the 4 month old Dougie the Border has very much made sure that they are aware when they arrived into the household that he is the top dog, sometimes the noises he makes are terrible, but he has never bitten either of the other two, he just warns them, often pinning them down for a second, snarling in their faces, then all is forgotten about.

Eventually Ruby the eldest Setter learnt that he is the boss and not to cross him, and the pup is learning slowly, its quite alarming when these little "tellings off" take place, but whilst we would most definately attempt to intervene if it turned into an attack (which it never has, touch wood) we have to leave them to get on with it and establish the order of the pack. Hopefully the pup will eventually learn that Dougie is not to be messed with.

As a lot of other posters have said, if there has been no blood drawn up until now, maybe you should wait and see how things develop as the mature a little. I am not sure castration would help, Dougie was castrated fairly young and it hasn't calmed down his bossy temprement! :-)

Nicki xx

I can sympathise with you as i had this problem at the beginning of the year. Although these were 45 and 55kg dogs. One already castrated, they did mean business and were trying to kill one another, doing a good job of it too. If Mase hadn't put both his canines through his own jowls then i think they would have caused serious damage to Rios neck. i had NO option but to rehome him, and luckily hes with my mum and there ACD male, who is 9 but entire and they get along fine. Rio being already castrated but this made no difference, Mason was topdog and would attack any nervousness, it seemed to be at 4 week intervals. We have a large enough house to seperate them but even the idiot adults in the house would let the boundaries slip, NOT me though i was always on my guard (which made me very stressed) so id shut one in the bedroom if i ever went out.

If they CANT sort it out then you will have to re-home one. It is being selfish of you not to, and very stressful for all concerned. Ps i wouldnt have sold you a male with another male in the house with such a small age gap, you would have been far better off getting a bitch.

Have they had thier eyes checked?

Thanks :-)
In view of selling a male when we already had a male, it is not normally a problem with cavaliers and they normally live side by side with no problems. It would have been an absolute disaster to sell us a bitch as the breeder is not keen on her dogs being castrated and we would not have been able to manage and I certainly don't want to breed. Why would I need to get their eyes checked?
I have had them in several times so I am sure every avenue has been checked :-)

Cavaliers can have eye problems they are on the BVA/KC/ISDS A list for Multifocal Retinal Dysplasia(a hereditary disease involving the defective development of the retina (innermost layer of the eye; it includes the light sensitive rods and cones which transmit impulses to the optic nerve). Defective retinal development results in linear folding of the sensory retina and the formation of rosettes composed of retinal cells. These abnormalities can result in severe visual impairment, although many dogs will have no obvious visual defect) & Hereditary Cataract & either of these can impair a dogs vision

If they CANT sort it out then you will have to re-home one. It is being selfish of you not to, and very stressful for all concerned. Ps i wouldnt have sold you a male with another male in the house with such a small age gap, you would have been far better off getting a bitch.

Cavaliers are one breed that goes against the trend regarding male to male relationships. We've only ever had males & they have never had any serious falling out & most"incidents"are all mouth & trousers with no damage done to either party, except perhaps to their pride(if dogs do have pride)

Thankyou for that information Moonmaiden. I can honestly say I had never heard of that before, is it quite commen for the breed?
Your second post was exactly what I was trying to say but appear to have lost my brain today lol

It is common enough for the breed to be on the BVA A list any dog from the breeds on the A list should be clinically screened where no DNA test is available for the condition. Never had a dog personally with either when tested

Thanks I will do some investigations and have a chat with my vet (i'm sure they will be sick of me :-0 )

It is being selfish of you not to, and very stressful for all concerned. Ps i wouldnt have sold you a male with another male in the house with such a small age gap, you would have been far better off getting a bitch.

We wouldn't expect to have a problem in Goldens. I would happily sell a dog to another dog household as long as they had good temperament.

> (if dogs do have pride)

Oh they certainly do have that. ;)

Well maybe not in goldens or cavs but in my breed if something goes wrong is more than dangerous, is it worth the risk??? It hasnt happened in any puppy that i have placed (i havent let any go to homes with a male with a small age gap or another dominant male, closest being a Neutered Rott of 5) but ive known it happen with other breeders. I wouldnt like to have a 18month old male back to me, taken away from its family and the family have no choice but to give him up. Its not fair on either party when it can be easily avoided, plus when i have a dominant male in my house i wouldnt want problems then either. Of course if it did happen there would be no quibbles about me having him back it would just be difficult until a new home can be found, but i have several friends and people i know through the breed that he/she would happily go to if i ever had a puppy back. A friend of mine has recently lost a Dogue to kidney disease and is pining for another when the time comes . Ive learnt from my experience and other knowledge thats what it all about. I could say the same for staffs and akitas also may not be best placed with another male in the house.

What do I do if neither one backs down?

> What do I do if neither one backs down?

Knock their heads together figuratively and take charge, this is why increasing their training and obedience levels will be most useful, which will distract them from each other, and then make them lie down in your presence and in sight of each other. 

They are likely to feel relived at you stepping in, as neither wants to risk being hurt.

Thanks, I did step in yesterday as although there was no obvious damage neither one was backing down!
My eldest is very well behaved and I used to take him to a local class when I wanted to get into showing but he seems to have a very short attention span and isn't really fussed by food so treats only worked for the 1st part of the class then he would decide he wanted to sit down and take it easy ;-)
The youngest however is very cheeky but he is very intelligent (in my eyes anyway) and I think would enjoy extra training for more stimulation but I have always been worried to seperate them in case I stopped them being friends (I know even as I am writing this I sound like they are my children don't i!)

> I have always been worried to seperate them in case I stopped them being friends

working with them seperately will strengthen their bonds with you, not weaken theirs, and its you they NEED to listen to.

Thanks point taken I will try and do their walks seperately aswell whilst there seems to be this air of aggression in the house.