I have to take the "sitting on ther fence" stance on this.....

Yes, problems within a breed will only come to light if dogs are tested for conditions but where do you stop? My breed is hip scored and is eye tested for HC but now I hear moves of elbow scoring too! Also one of my puppy owners from the 2nd litter was going to get her dog tested for vWB & CLAD because one of the other breeds she owned can be affected by it..these conditions has never existed in Munsters so why test?

I have always thought elbow testing to be a waste of time but I must say I've seen so many dogs with OCD in recent times that I'm no longer so sure. Working Labradors who must be kept crated until 18 months old!

As far as whether tests should be compulsory, I hate to see "Laws" passed as much as the next but I also hate to see known affected dogs used and having been in dogs for so long I get to hear things which bring no credit to some breeders!

I would have said that maybe the breed societies should have an input into what should be tested for in a particular breed but on the strength of the fuss one breed club has kicked up over a known eye condition which affects that breed I'm not so sure they really are the best people to decide these matters

We all know nothing in life is perfect but breeders have a duty to the breeds. The breeders to come can only breed with what we leave them.

Regards, John

hi i started out wanting to breed but saw all the probs which were poss in genetics. i had my standard poodle checked for all poodle related ones and she carries them all.this is a bitch carrying top blood lines. does this internationaly known person know her dogs carry this prob and still continue to spew them out?.......yes she must know. but she continoes to breed and show and be a winner which is all that counts to her. my bitch is now spayed and its an end to me selling pups with probs to come .im looking for another bitch fairly soon but the same names come up time after time on the pedigrees......what can you do?the kennel club cant make anyone test there dogs and it costs so much but im glad i did it cos its morally the right thing to do

Hi Leigh & John, I agree with you both but I would like to see breeders test their dogs on voluntary basis rather than beinf forced to, as well. And as you say, just because it`s not on the list to be tested for doesn`t mean to say that a hereditary problem will never exist in the breed. As for dogs having to be crated until 18mths of age I have heard of this being done & not only in the working Labs either, this is something I can`t agree with because to my mind if that is what is needed to be done to prevent bone disease, the dog cannot have healthy bones to begin with. Have also heard of quite a few dogs with elbow/hip/shoulder probs so I decided to have my two young ones elbow/hip/shoulder xrayed for my own satisfaction because I wanted to be sure for myself they were OK, which happily they are. I think breeders should be aware of things & never become complacent that their own particular breed doesn`t have problems with xyz diseases.
Christine, Spain.

>>I would like to see breeders test their dogs on voluntary basis rather than beinf forced to,

Me too Christine :-) But look at the number of breeds that do have an eye problem and the breeders still do not test their stock :-(

Yes I know Leigh you`re right. I don`t understand them at all but sometimes I forget that not everyone feels the same way as me about their dogs. Don`t mean the people here tho! :)
Christine Spain

>>do you just mean eye testing for gundog breeds

No, I mean eye testing for ALL breeding stock :-)

Hi all, just thought that any one who doesn`t know too much about eye diseases & the eye testing schemes the link below may be of help.
http://www.inkabijou.co.uk/cea.htm
Christine Spain.

Sorry Leigh, I just don't understand this . To the best of my knowledge deerhounds don't suffer from inherited eye problems. I've never even heard of a deerhound with senile cataract though I'm sure there must be a few. Surely it is pointless to test a breed where the clinical disease is unknown? I accept that if a problem shows up in a breed, the earlier it is dealt with the better and I certainly took that view when PSS was found in the deerhound. But I don't see the point in looking for trouble where there is not even anecdotal evidence that it exists.

There are a whole lot of things which can creep up on us Sharon. Many years ago a dog went blind with an undisclosed (Unknown? undiagnosed?) eye problem. A few years later another dog, a decendent of the first, was diagnosed as having Glaucoma and the eye had to be removed. (I believe the other eye had to also be removed at a later date) This last case was in the early 1980's. Because people generally don’t like to breed too close it was nearly ten years later before the third documented case occurred and then it was not one dog! If only Glaucoma had been checked for in Flatcoats those few years ago there could well be no glaucoma in the breed at all! Even with my limited database of the breed I can trace seperate seemingly unconnected lines back to a common dog in the 1950's

All this is not to say anything against the Flatcoat Breeders, they are doing far more to control the situation than just about any breed I know. They established a testing scheme using the services of Tony Read within a very few short months of the problem rearing its head but, as I said, If only. . . . . . . .

Regards, John

Hi John, I agree that things can creep up, but what I'm really asking is where does one stop? For example do Flatcoat breeders routinely test for PSS? And if not, why not? I'm absolutely NOT against heath testing but I do wonder if we are perhaps in danger of running away with ourselves with some of the commoner tests - HD, elbows, eyes. Yes, HD and inherited eye problems are common in some of the more numerous breeds, but that doesn't mean that they are a problem in all breeds. If we insist on all health checks being done on all breeds in a blunderbuss fashion isn't there a risk that people will say 'Enough!' and be discouraged from testing for the things that really are problems? It also worries me a little that 'standard' health checks are used, perhaps unconciously, by some as a sort of comfort blanket. For instance I'd be very wary about breeding from a bitch whose mother had whelping problems or showed poor maternal behaviour, and I wouldn't breed from her if granny and several aunts had also run into whelping problems or didn't do a good job of raising their pups. I'm not saying that you would breed from a bitch like that without a lot of thought either, but HD, OCD and eye problems are not the only things that can be inherited and I sometimes wonder if a few breeders feel more free to wink at 'simple' things like poor whelping/maternal behaviour because they do the 'headline' checks.

Hi,
I can understand that many breeders cannot see the point of testing, if a problem is unknown in the breed. The Flatcoated Retriever Scoiety certainly has always encouraged members to test all breeding stock prior to breeding for hips and eyes. Before glaucoma was found to be a problem in the breed and even today it is encouraged for all breeders to eye test any dog prior to being used in a breeding program. The glaucoma test is different from the standard BVA/KC test for other hereditary eye diseases, and has to be done separately. So we flatcoat breeders do both the standard test and the glaucoma test, even though we know that the only problem listed for flatcoats by the BVA/KC scheme is glaucoma.

Hi Sharon, the thing with some of the eye diseases is that they can be prevented from affecting others down the line if they are found early enough. There is a first time for everything & we all need to be on our guard aginst them & if that means testing even tho *at the moment* there may be no evidence of disease in a particular breed then thats what should be done.
Christine, Spain.

Hi Christine, see my not very clear reply to John :-).

Just to add to it, I've just done an internet search on inherited eye disease in dogs, and was surprised to find late onset posterior subcapsular lens opacities ('senile cataracts') listed. Now heredity probably does affect the age at which people get cataracts. Relatively early onset of 'senile cataract' can run in families and some nationalities tend to get cataract earlier then others on average (though there is debate about this being more to do with environmental factors). But the evidence for inheritance of senile cataract is still unclear and in any case - and imho - cataract in late middle-age or old age is not the worst thing that can befall a dog.

I recently read a book that went so far as to suggest that health testing of canine breeding stock may be counterproductive because it further decreases aready limited gene pools. At the time I disagreed, but I think the author may have a point if the presence of senile cataract is considered to be a contraindication to breeding.

At the moment anything with the words 'genetic' or 'inherited' gets attention, but, as with everything else, there are fashions in medicine and science. I'm sure that canine genetics and health testing are important, but at the same time I do think we need to keep a grasp of common sense.

Hi Sharon I see your point & of course I can see it could all get out of hand to the point of people saying enough! we are testing for everything but what about the things you don`t test for and people are breeding with those dogs! It`s a vicious circle & I think a delicate line thats being walked,but the overall picture mustn`t be lost. And thats to breed sound healthy dogs of top quality & if the tools are there to help then shouldn`t they be used? And theres no beating good old fashioned common sense! :)
Out of interest do you or any one know if we are seeing more dogs with bone/eye hereditary probs than before & is it because of the testing or it wasn`t seen so much yrs ago? By the way I`m off to look up senile cataracts cos I`d never heard of them!
Christine, Spain.

The thing is Sharon, who is going to say what’s tested? The individual breeder? The breed society? The KC? Or the Law? This is the four options and I cannot think of any other option.

At the moment it is the breeder but to me anyway, the breeder does not in the main have the necessary information. I'm not talking about the people on boards like this because the amount of information available on here is phenomenal! There is no excuse for anyone on here not knowing anything because it is only a question to be asked and the reply will be here in minutes. But we are only a very small part of the dog owning population.

The breed societies? That’s the next step up but I don’t see it working at the moment. I know I will upset people but take MRD in Goldens. The very first argument raised was, "We didn’t know!" Simply not true! I told one of the Golden Breed club Secretaries 3 months before it came onto the list and I know he sent letters to the Breed council but it's still a mess! I know the argument is that no dogs in this country have gone blind with it but the other side of the coin is, what degree of visual impairment are breeders prepared to allow? (Having had two Labradors with late forming cataracts I cannot agree with you that they are not important either.)

The KC? All the KC will ever say is, "We are not in business to police the breeders!"

The Law? They are not qualified to talk about veterinary matters and should have more important things to do!!!!

Possibly you could add to the list the BVA but just look at the mess MRD turned out to be!

Sorry but I don’t have any answers but I do think an answer needs finding!

Regards, John :)

Hi John, I don't have an answer either :-). Some breed societies are better than others, but on the whole I don't see it working either and as far as I'm concerned the KC, the law and the BVA are all a waste of space. So it comes back to the individual breeder and I'd hope that most responsible breeders are like the folks on boards like Champs (the irresponsible ones of course, don't know/care about the question, never mind the answer :-().

There is one other group that you didn't mention: the puppy buying public. OK, many puppy purchasers depend on the breeder to tell them what tests should be done but with TV, the 'net and popular dog glossy magazines people today are becoming much more aware of these things. I've had people ask me if my dogs are hip scored. So far thay have accepeted that it is far more important that a deerhound is checked for cardiomyopathy (and that breeding away from ancestors known to have had DCM is far more important than annual examinations), but I can see the day coming when they don't.

I didn't mean to imply that senile cataracts are unimportant but they are easy to remove and as long as the retina is OK the results are excellent. I also wonder to what extent testing would prevent them. I'm only going on human cataract but some degree of lens opacity is so close to the norm in the elderly that it would be totally impractical to remove everyone with a family history of senile cataract from the 'breeding pool'. While heredity almost certainly does play some part in human senile cataract most would agree that they are simply a 'normal' if undesirable part of ageing. When life expectancy was 30 or 40 years cataracts were rare, but Ian & I can't go out without meeting someone whose cataract one of us has removed. It may be different in dogs so I'm open to correction, but canine life expectany is also increasing, so I'd guess that an increase in canine cataract is inevitable and probably unavoidable.

Don't worry Sharon, I didn’t take offence about the cataracts. :) But the question still is, how much visual impairment is acceptable? Is MRD as in Goldens acceptable? Or CEA? I just don’t know! A friend as got well into the training of he Labrador who was doing well in gundog working tests last summer and was thinking of entering her in a field trial towards the end of this season. The dog has now been diagnosed as suffering from cataracts, (Early forming) and she is broken hearted. After loosing her old FT CH suddenly last year she now has to start all over again.

Regards, John

Hi John, no I don't think that CEA or retinal dysplasias like MRD are acceptable. There is no question that CEA is inherited and though I don't know much about MRD in Goldens I gather that it is as well even if the inheritace isn't fully understood? My problem with senile cataract is that unless the dog is different and accepeting that there probably is some inherited pattern to age of onset, cataracts in the elderly are most likely just something that happens to old cells. Getting a cataract is a lot worse than going grey or bald, but on the present evidence and coomon sense observation that make a reasonable parallel. Juvenile cataract is another ball game. Has your friend considered surgery and if the cataracts were removed would the dog be allowed to enter trials?

Hi Christine, can't speak for any but my own breeds but my guess is that with the giants we now see far less bone/joint problems. If you look at old photographs of wolfhounds and deerhounds many have what would now be seen as deformities never mind faults. I'm well sure that some of those dogs had painful puppyhoods, and would now be referred to orthopaedic specialists. Considering that most of the photographed dogs were well known, I dread to think what the 'poor' specimens were like. But I suspect that the odd shaped limbs on those dogs had very little to do with heredity or testing and an awful lot to do with nutrition.

These old photographs are the main reason that BARF and home-made diets scare me skinny in rapidly growing giant breeds. I feed adults on a home-made diet myself and used to do so with pups, but many of my grey hairs are due to worry about calcium/phosphorus ratios etc. IMHO it takes a experience and probably research (in material that isn't an easy read for people without a scientific backgound) to make a 'safe' diet for giant breed pups. Don't want to offend (think you are a proponent of BARF?) and I hope I'm wrong, but I fear that we may soon see some of those pictures come to life again in real dogs raised on BARF etc by inexperinced people.

Be interested in what Phil, Nicky and the other giant breed people think about this.

Admin Note: Barf topic branched to here

Well after all my years in labs I took testing for granted eye tests every year,hip scores I was quite surprised that other breeds didnt do it.

The Large Munsterlander Club will not take anyone onto it's puppy register who have not had their dog's hip scored and holding current eye certificates. In light of this, it is very rare to find somebody in the breed who has a litter without either or both parents having passed the required tests.

Good for the Large Munsterland Club - just a pity all other breeds don't follow their example - plus including anything that happens to affect particular breeds such as CLAD or vWD, haemophillia etc.

Christine

Whilst agreeing that the LMC do sterling work :-) You must bear in mind that some years only about 100 or so pups are registered, so it is a small breed where health matters are relatively easily controlled

Why should it be that it is the smaller or newer breeds that seem to be more willing to make sure their breeding stock conform to certain criteria?

Christine

I don't think it is about being more willing, it is a numbers game & also a degree a control game (imo). In Large Munsterlanders it is still a close knit community, and 'pressure' in the nicest possible way, could if necessary be exerted :-) to keep people in line - sorry this is sounding a bit draconion :-) Take Siberians as a different example....10 years ago there was much greater control than today, health checks were, and for many people still are the norm, but a quick flick at the latest BRS shows very few affixes, of the few that there are, only a minority also appear in the ring/on the trail, very few club members (although the UK Club has over 800+ addresses) and therefore probably very few health checks.

If you then go further afield to more popular breeds...Setters, Newfs, beagles....Heaven help by the time you get to Labs, boxers & rotts etc

Hi all, I know this will be of interest & maybe come as a shock to some, but I can tell you, sadly, a Spanish Water Dog has been found to have PRA, at the moment we don't know if it is a lone case or the tip of an ice berg.
I thought I should put it here but I`ll remove it to another thread if anyone thinks I should.
Christine, Spain.

Oh dear Christine, I just hope they test! If they do and if they are just a little ruthless at this early time they have a chance to completely eradicate it before it has a chance to get a hold in the breed!

John

I`m sure they will John, the owner didn`t have to have this one tested so I think they will now.
Christine, Spain.

gollie will have her eyes tested,she just had her hip done while she was having the op the other day,so i will start as i mean to go on like i have with my f/c all have been eye tested and hip score before going to a breeding progamme,harley my black f/c fail he eyes test under two well know spec vet,so he will never go to stud,

gollie is a spainsh water dog .

I believe,from friends,who own this breed, that the Rhodesian Ridgeback is a large breed where hip scoring remains relatively unimportant. Dogs are used regardless of whether they are scored or not but the breed doesn't seem to have a "hip" problem even with this attitude! Yes, the occasional rogue score appears but then rogue scores appear in even the most thoroughly X-rayed breeds.

Re: Munsters. Yes,the breed registrations are low but even the "pet" dogs & bitches that are bred from are hip scored and eye tested too....how much "leaning" on have these owners had, if anything? Probably some of them aren't even LMC members.

Christine, I mean 'leaning on' in the nicest possible way :D, the pet people will often go back to their 'experienced' breeders for help & advice...and to find a stud....just like we constantly suggest to people who come on this board...this is all great, excellent for the health of the breed, and to be applauded..... I hold by my comment that it is controllable because of the scale of the breeding done in this Country

Ok, duckie.......see you at Crufts???? :)

Hi Christine

I know that I don't mind it being here. Luckily we have always made sure that people eye test SWD's even though over the past 10 years we have enquired with Spain and also know that Peter Bedford has looked into it and we haven't come across any problems.

I am so glad that from the start in ENgland we ensured that anybody who was thinking of breeding had to have their dogs eyes tested, up to now we've had no prob's. here thankfully.

Hi Briarlow, thats good news then! As far as I know, they have not been tested here in Spain which is not so goods news really but this may change now & at least knowing about this, all who own the breed can be on their guard. I would love to see the breed clubs over here run their own eye testing schemes & hope this may just be the push them into starting it themselves. I live in hope eh?
Christine, Spain.