the bbc documentary was aired today in Australia. Any thoughts?

If you do a search on here you'll find that the subject's been discussed (probably to death!) many times.

No - nothing new to add.

My fellow Australian residents DO seem to have a lot to say about it.  About as happy about the programme as we all were!

Me again, sorry to bump this up as I'm aware it's been discussed ad infinitum, but just have to say the same old balderdash is being spouted by a certain someone.... grrrr!

hope it goes global

brilliant answer olive,wish more said that

Can we send Jemima over to you?   No returns????

> hope it goes global

It's been aired in quite a few countries, the US for one and it had the same reaction from responsible dog breeders as we have found on this forum.

It also has pointed out that people need to be very careful when buying a pedigree dog, people like myself who went to a reputable breeder that does all the health tests. Maybe more people will now go for good old mutts and save hundreds from being destroyed in rescue centres.

You've also got to remember Olive that no matter what breeders do in relation to health tests and most do the best that they can with the tests out there, there is still no guarentee in life. Not with us humans and not with dogs. Certain dogs could be carriers of certain health problems but no one will ever know about them until they pop up in a pup here and there. Many things can't be tested for and some things can only be tested in certain breeds. They are still working on DNA testing for many breeds.

Also like to point out that many cross breeds/mongrels have health problems, there is no basis to say that they are healthier, there are no facts to this as very few people health test these dogs, so pedigree dogs can't ever be compared.

As you probably can tell my main concern is for the pug breed. To quote a reply email from The Animal Health Trust with regards to genetic diseases ;
"As a summary, pugs are lovely little dogs but predisposed to a number of conditions, partly due to breeding selection, partly not. This is however the case for most pure breed dogs (Boxers are predisposed to cancers, Cockers to autoimmune diseases etc). The healthiest dogs tend to be mixed breed dogs, because they have a mix of genes from several breeds and have less chance of getting "bad" combinations."

"go for good old mutts and save hundreds from being destroyed in rescue centres"

Well there you are Olive..buy one of them next time....simple.
If that is your opinion then go with it, no one forces you to buy anything.

I'd never "buy" another dog. I'd pay the rehoming fee of a stray that goes towards the cost of NEUTERING.
Thats all its seems to be about with breeders..........making good money out of breeding dogs that aren't "fit for function".

> The healthiest dogs tend to be mixed breed dogs, because they have a mix of genes from several breeds and have less chance of getting "bad" combinations."

& just how do they come to this opinion ?Because they see more pedigree dogs ? That insurance companies pay for more treatment for pedigrees ?

True cross breeds are the offspring of two pedigree dogs(like Labs & poodles)as these breeds have the same genetic conditions how the offspring be more healthy ???????

The mongrels have no health testing prior to breeding, few people screen them for genetic conditions. Breedings are random, the most aggressive male gets to mate the female. All the cross breeds/mongrels we have had have had conditions found in pedigree dogs, HD, Deafness, fear aggression, etc etc etc.

MM try emailing them yourself. THAT was my reply.

> Thats all its seems to be about with breeders..........making good money out of breeding dogs that aren't "fit for function".

Do explain how I will be making money out of breeding my Border Collies, to date I have spent £1,500 on health tests, without the cost of buying the dogs & more tests have to be done before I can breed from any of my dogs& I have to buy another bitch as Jessie has HD score too high to breed from, but has no symptoms(so in a pet home she would never have been scored)

I'm probably looking at spending another £1,000 at least on health tests etc, which is a rough total of £2,500 before I even breed from one of my dogs. So if I have a litter of 6 the puppies have already cost me over £300 each & I will not be getting £750 + for the puppies either like the Labradoodle breeders do !

*sigh* yet another trouble maker

Why should I e mail them ? They only see dogs that have been referred to them, like my neighbours lurcher(a cross bred working dog)that has a genetic heart condition(they consider lurchers a breed BTW which they are not!) They do not see the same proportion of cross breeds as GP vets do, unless a dog is insured few owners would be able to afford a referral to the AHT & the proportion of insured pedigree dogs to cross breeds or mongrels is weighted very heavily towards the pedigree dogs.

My friends lurcher has had over £10,000 worth of treatment in the three years since they got him from a rescue not a breeder !

> *sigh* yet another trouble maker

Pardon ? I am asking for proof that I breed to make money out of dogs that are not fit for function, how can you consider me being a trouble maker ???????

lol not you olive :p

MM i agree with everything you say about not making a profit, it just seems everytime i see a post from olive its always one to insight a riot!

>> The healthiest dogs tend to be mixed breed dogs, because they have a mix of genes from several breeds and have less chance of getting "bad" combinations."

My mixed breed dog who has been suffering with severe arthritis from the grand old age of 2 would beg to differ.  The vet who operated on him - twice - is an orthopaedic specialist and is fairly convinced that his problems are a direct result of being a mixed breed.  

Swallow these lies about 'healthy' crossbreeds at your peril.

with regards to mixed breeds, what i wrote came from the AHT. I f u disgree, email and ask them

This is like Groundhog day

Good breeders who do health test will try and reduce the risk of inherited conditions are still condemed. Why on earth people think crossing breeding without health test will eliminate the risk is beyond me.

NO NEED DEAR, I MET HER AND MY PUG IS THE PUG FROM PEDIGREE DOGS EXPOSED AND THAT IS TO LOKIS MUM

Lucy - we can't preach to the converted :(   They "know" all there is to know!

> MY PUG IS THE PUG FROM PEDIGREE DOGS EXPOSED<

In that case, you should know that this subject has been discussed ad-nausem here - you have your opinions which obviously concur with Ms Harrison's - and you should know that those of us who do/have bred pedigree dogs have taken great offence at the sweeping statements made that "we don't care about the welfare of our dogs/don't take any notice of health testing etc etc etc.    To lump every breeder that has ever bred a pedigree litter with those puppy farm owners who will shove any two dogs together in order to make a fast buck is offensive to the n-th degree.

I am sorry that you have had the problems with your pug ....as I know very little about the breed apart from the fact that 50 years ago one of my mother's friends had a pug which would collapse every 50 yards or so, I cannot comment further on the problems of the breed.

Olive think you need to go on American health testing sites where many mongrels are tested especially the fashionable ones of today and see just how many illnesses they have.  Mongrels, as do pedigrees can end up with the same illnesses. 

I find it strange that if all this is true that I have two breeds where both of them live well into their teens. 

my problem is, yes george my pug has every problem going, but what gets me is that in the pug world my lovely, the way that they test for spine problems is to x ray the parents.Both georges parents are x ray clear, but george still has spine problems.This is obvious proof that this x ray is not enough,and that these spine problems are caused by a gene,that is being passed through the pugs from generation to generation and is raising his ugly head every now and then,we need to test for that gene to see where it is coming from and then not breed from that stock,but unfortunatly alot would rather carry on doing the x ray,and that is burying their heads in the sand.another way to stop spine problems is to stop the twist in the tail, their is no need for this twist at all, and this also messes up the spine,plus alot of pugs spines are prob only slightly not right, and if they do not have their pug x rayed the problem goes un noticed.
I had another pug, he too was from lovely lines and the lady who bred him has become a firm friend to me, she loves her pugs and only breeds once in a blue moon, that pug was lovely.He was as fit as a fiddle, he had no health problems as we know of and we had his spine x rayed for peace of mind, just to see if it was affected and it was not. He used to run around and never get out of breath, although we were always careful of temperature,and not to jump off furniture etc.When he was 4 years and 3 months old, he had a massive fit,we rushed him to the vet as he was foaming and going blue at the mouth, the vet got his temperature down and put him under sedation to rest his brain, sadly, even when the sedation wore off he was still in a comma and the vet said that something in his brain had gone seriously wrong that this was not just a fit,my little pug fought for 24hrs for life, but he died,the vet reckoned that it could have been gme, which is is a genetic problem not something that is caught or just happens. so you can see why i want things to change for the pug,i have one with evrything wrong with him and the other is dead, can you blame me for wanting a change, and like i said, there are more of us out there that have gone through this or similar and its not fair

Olive, I do not breed or show and I run a rescue. From my experience, F1 and mongrels are just as susceptible (sp?) to hereditary diseases as purebred dogs. I've had plenty of dogs here with HD, ED, Epilepsy etc and lately I've noticed an upsurge in cryptorchism and entropia in Bull Breed x dogs as well.

This conversation could go back and forth with who knows whose dogs had what problem. I know people with cross breeds with problems, I know people with pure pedigrees with problems. The comment about cross breeds has come straight from the vets that do the tests on dogs. I don't think they would make such a sweeping statement if they didnt have the statistical evidence? Surely they know what they are talking about? I merely added a comment that came straight from the horses mouth. As I said before, email them and ask.
As I said at the beginning of this thread, surely PDE programme will make people much more careful when looking for the pedigree of their choice, making sure its from a responsible breeder? Surely if you are a responsible breeder, do all the tests and have the paperwork etc to prove it, then you have nothing to worry about. I know loads of people who have watched the programme who are not breeders. Their reactions were not to tarnish ALL breeders. It just made them aware that there are some bad breeders out there and that some dogs are more prone to certain horrific conditions.
Joanne and I both have pugs. Both our dogs have gone through hell and back and both our dogs came from apparently good breeders. As far as PDE and pugs is concerned it showed how inbred the breed really is. Both our dogs have had brachycephalic obstructive airway syndrome. Although there is a genetic link to this, it primarily boils down to conformation of the breed which has been bred for a much flatter face over the years. As Joanne also states, the back problems such as hemivertebrae and scoliosis also have a genetic link but yet again conformation has a big role to play in this (the tightly curled double twist to the tail).
So why, if the programme had such an impact on breeders, are the pug breeders not addressing these two things and working towards a better conformation with introducing a longer muzzle and getting rid of the double curl?
Yes they have added things like "wide open nostrils", but this only slows down the progress of BOAS, since the face is still so flat that you can let more air in but it still hits major restrictions to breathing due to intranasal resistance. The double curl in the tail remains, but they just don't call it a twist. They also say dogs much not show signs that are detrimental to the breed, like not showing eye injury or laboured breathing? Eye injuries come with time (due to conformation). My pug has grade 3 laryngeal collapse and she shows no sign of laboured breathing. Yes she snorts and sneezes but what scares me is that this is seen as "normal" for pugs when it could show (probably does) a progressive underlying problem due to conformation.

>surely PDE programme will make people much more careful when looking for the pedigree of their choice, making sure its from a responsible breeder?

The trouble is that the programme made absolutely no mention of what constitutes a 'good' pedigree or a 'responsible' breeder! The impression given to the General Public (and a lot of them spoke to me about it at work) was that a KC-registered puppy was guaranteed to be unhealthy, especially if it came from a breeder who shows! And if the same name cropped upon both sides of the pedigree ... well, the dog was doomed. That's why the programme did so much harm - it was manna from heaven to puppy farmers who don't KC register and bybs whose idea of good breeding is to find the nearest dog of the same breed to mate their bitch with. There was no mention of health screening the proposed parents, or of looking further back in the pedigree to find out if a repeated name was repeated because he/she was clear for inheritable conditions ...

> So why, if the programme had such an impact on breeders, are the pug breeders not addressing these two things and working towards a better conformation with introducing a longer muzzle and getting rid of the double curl?
>

How do you know they're not?
As far as I can see there have been no pug breeders replying to your posts so we dont know what their breeding plans are.
So in their absence.......
Do you not realise that considering the programme aired only a year ago, even if every pug breeder turned their ship around and tried to breed for a long nose and a straight tail.....you would not see evidence of that for a long time. It takes generations to evolve yet you are asking why are there not long nosed straight tailed pugs in the high street...... a bit unrealistic dont you think?

Also I have a breed with a tightly curled tail yet no health issues regarding this trait, and it is an ancient breed. 

If only things were that simple.

Most ills are recessive or complex or even random, and almost impossible to bred out, but good breeders are working with what tools are available .

DNA testing is still in it's infancy, dog breeding is centuries old.

Health issues have been with us, and occur in nature, only difference is that in the past a  sick animal would be destroyed and replaced with a healthy one, simple as.

The truth is that then incidence of hereditary conditions manifesting themselves are low where breeding is knowledgeable and caring, but it cannot be totally prevented.

The average low level (as in numbers bred) may never come across an affected puppy, and then one day bang one appears in a litter.  They then have to try and figure out where it came from and was it pure fluke or an issue known to occur in the breed or even a specific line of descent,  not easy, and impossible unless your deeply involved with a  breed.

So all these fly by night one off litter breeders/cross breeders won't have a clue what they a re working with, and then they sell onto others who do the same, and there is a a constant pool of dogs with unknown issues.

>with regards to mixed breeds, what i wrote came from the AHT. I f u disgree, email and ask them

You are quoting them to back your argument, therefore you must agree with their statement.  You just don't want to hear facts and experiences that contradict your skewed notion that all pedigree dogs are at death's door.  

I have no need to contact anyone to ask them anything, thanks all the same.  Like Loki's Mum said...there's no point in wasting any more time and energy preaching to the converted....

I have no need to contact anyone to ask them anything, thanks all the same.  Like Loki's Mum said...there's no point in wasting any more time and energy preaching to the converted....

it has nothing to do qith being converted, we want change or the better health of our dogs, you lot want to pretend that nothing is wrong, that you are doing everything you can and carry on as normal, well it is not good enough, there are so many people out there with problems with their dog, you lot dont hear about it as you are in your own tightly knit community, as soon as anyone on here says the slightest thing about their dogs,you all attack and say it was down to pde, pde has given people out there a voice, it has helped people like me and shown others with dogs with health problems that they are not alone.Before the program we lot did not know who to tell or even should we, i was even told by the lady i bought george off to keep quiet and that if i did not tell, i could enter him into shows,Now you tell me, how is that helping the breed,

> have no need to contact anyone to ask them anything, thanks all the same.  Like Loki's Mum said...there's no point in wasting any more time and energy preaching to the converted....
>
> it has nothing to do qith being converted, we want change or the better health of our dogs, you lot want to pretend that nothing is wrong, that you are doing everything you can and carry on as normal, well it is not good enough, there are so many people out there with problems with their dog, you lot dont hear about it as you are in your own tightly knit community, as soon as anyone on here says the slightest thing about their dogs,you all attack and say it was down to pde, pde has given people out there a voice, it has helped people like me and shown others with dogs with health problems that they are not alone.Before the program we lot did not know who to tell or even should we, i was even told by the lady i bought george off to keep quiet and that if i did not tell, i could enter him into shows,Now you tell me, how is that helping the breed,

Oh dear you are very bitter aren't you, I do hope that your next dog(a rescue with unknown breeding/background)is perfectly healthy, because if it isn't who will you have to blame ??

How has PDE given "the people out there a voice" ? People have contacted the BVA, AHT, KC, Trading Standards etc for years about dogs that are not totally healthy & there are many successful court cases against breeders brought by the owners of these"defective"dogs

I attend a pet dog obedience club, & have done so for too many years to count, since PDE we are seeing a huge increase in dogs acquired since PDE bred by Puppy Farmers, BYB & Pet breeders attending, these dogs were bought because they are not bred by people who show & who register their dogs, their reasons are quite simple-ALL puppies that are KC reg are sick & the sickest are from breeders who show their dogs. Adverts in papers & on the net include so many "Totally healthy, not in bred, not KC reg" What these breeders do not add is-not health tested parents, used dog down the road,bred just to make money etcetcetc

We have had blind/partially sighted BCs bought by people who are not aware of the need to not just clinically screen the parents, but also DNA test them before breeding for CEA, young Cavaliers with MVD from parents weren't tested(not KC reg so don't need to be), dysplasic GSDs, Labradors, Goldens etc from unscored parents, the list is endless.

How has PDE helped these dogs & their owners ? answers on a post card to Ms JH so she can use them for more publicity for her program.

You seem to have got the impression that I am a breeder...I am not.  I am just a humble pet owner of one crossbreed with crippling arthritis and one healthy pedigree who hates to see the propaganda about all crossbreeds being healthy and all pedigrees being riddled with disease being perpetuated. 

I fail to see who PDE has given a voice to or who it has helped....except the puppy farmers and bad breeders who can use it to justify their horrendous practices and keep churning out dogs with problems like yours. 

Me, I have no-one to blame and bleat to as mine IS one of those rescue/rehomed mix breeds that you all seem see as the way forward to avoid sick & diseased dogs.     

>you lot want to pretend that nothing is wrong,

I'm not certain who you mean by 'you lot', but I dion't think anyone says that everything in the garden is rosy and perfect, but many people have a different (more realistic perhaps?) view of what needs to be done and the timescale needed to achieve it.

For example, there are claims that the curled tail is a deformity and causes back problems such as hemivertebrae and scoliosis. The basenji (among other breeds) has a very similarly tightly curled tail and yet aren't famed for the condition. Could it be that the curled tail is a bit of a red herring?

Of course changes need to occur - but to think that they'll happen overnight is decidedly over-optimistic! Such changes take generations to achieve, so while to the uninitaited it might appear that nothing is happening, perhaps those looking at the breeds in 20 or 30 years time will notice the difference.

nothing to do with being bitter dear, or to do with blame,just want the breed helped and improved, maybe if you had had my two dogs, you might feel the same, oh and by the way, i wont be getting any type of dog again,and if you cared about ny breed of dog, you would cut out the catty remarks an put your comments to better use

as for the curl tail being a red herring, i would think that top spine specialist Nick Jeffries from cambridge vet hospital would disagree

and i never said changes need to be done overnight, but it would be nice to see a plan put into place for it

>as for the curl tail being a red herring, i would think that top spine specialist Nick Jeffries from cambridge vet hospital would disagree

Quite possibly. But there's also the possibility that the connection is similar to the way the number of drownings rises with an increase in sales of ice cream. In fact the only connection is a coincidental one, where more people go swimming in ponds, rivers and the sea when the weather is warm, and sales of ice cream also rise when the weather is warm ...

Just because one vet says so does not make it gospel, you only have to look what happened when Dr Andrew Wakefield said MMR caused Autism it caused hysteria and didn't have much proof to uphold it. Sometimes it's best not to buy into all the hype and take in all the facts not the tunnel view that you seem to of adopted.

> the way that they test for spine problems is to x ray the parents.Both georges parents are x ray clear, but george still has spine problems.This is obvious proof that this x ray is not enough,and that these spine problems are caused by a gene,that is being passed through the pugs from generation to generation and is raising his ugly head every now and then,we need to test for that gene to see where it is coming from and then not breed from that stock,but unfortunatly alot would rather carry on doing the x ray,and that is burying their heads in the sand

Until a reliable DNA test is devised, breeders have to do the best they can with what health tests are available. Another course of action would be to conduct test matings using affected dogs on dogs breeders are trying to establish their genetic health status and then once the breeders know the outcome by testing the pups, breeders would have to have all the pups put to sleep, to save them from suffering. I know some breeds in the past did this, so perhaps you would like breeders to go down this line until such time as a reliable DNA test is found?

In the post commenting on the letter from the AHT, it says that some health problems are the result of selecting breeding some are not. So it would seem that they are saying that unfortunately some problems have occurred which are not due to selective breeding. 

I have been organising eye testing for 28 years for dogs, in that time every crossbred and heinz 57 attending has come because it is affected with an inherited eye problem, so if I was basing a response to a question such as Do all crossbred dogs and heinz 57 types have eye problems I would have to say that statistically yes 100% are affected. Statistics can be bent to fit a theory any way you like.

As another poster has mentioned regarding the increase in puppy farmed dogs and back yard bred dogs attending their training club, I am a trainer at a similar local dog training club and have also noticed this trend. We have watched these dogs from young pups, develop health problems, one much loved dog from this source is currently in the vets and is seriously ill. The other problem we are seeing increasing from dogs from these sources is that of poor temperament, we are seeing more aggressive dogs coming through our classes. Many are showing signs of poor temperament from very early on. We have two pups who are 5 months old and both are very sharp.

OK.   I'm converted.   No more pedigree dogs.   No more people controlling the breeding habits of dogs all over the country.   Let's be less hands-on, shall we?    And then we can look at our much-loved dogs breeding as and when they like - we'll all find homes for the resulting puppies, won't we?    And let's not worry about over-breeding - after all, its only natural that they breed every time they come into season, isn't it?    Oh don't worry about Bessie, with her teats hanging down to the floor - she's only had six or seven litters - after all she's only three - or is it four?

Temperament of the puppies - well it all depends upon which dog gets to Bessie - mind you the last couple of times it would look as if the puppies are those of that nasty tempered dog over the back - he always manages to fight all the other dogs that are trying to mate her - he's always been the one on top.   The last puppies were a bit "bitey" - but that's nature, isn't it?

Is that really what you are advocating?

> and i never said changes need to be done overnight, but it would be nice to see a plan put into place for it

As I understand it the KC have already put plans in place to alter breed standards. They have infact over many years been making slight alterations to ensure pedigree dogs are improving health wise. When you wrote to the AHT did you also ask the Kennel Club what it is doing or has done? Or are you so convinced all pedigree dog breeders are interested in is money and therefore the Kennel Club is as bad that you have not asked them? Have you asked as many experts and organisations as possible for their opinions so that you have ALL the relevant information at your finger tips to make an informed theory? Or are you relying solely on one letter and what was in the PDE programme?

>i never said changes need to be done overnight, but it would be nice to see a plan put into place for it

What did the pug breed clubs say when you contacted them about your worries? If the UK ones haven't been helpful you might have more luck with overseas clubs.

who is the aht, you are mixing me up with another post, although now you have mentioned it, maybe i will